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'Daddy & Papa'
Johnny Symons
Filmmaker
Wednesday, June 04, 2003; 1:00 p.m ET
A growing number of gay men are making a decision that is at once traditional and revolutionary: to become dads. The new PBS Independent Lens documentary "Daddy & Papa" looks at gay fathers who face both the routine and revolutionary challenges of becoming parents.
Filmmaker Johnny Symons was online Wednesday, June 4 at 1 p.m. ET, to discuss the film and his own experiences as a gay father and the difficulties of gay adoption.
Symons is an award-winning documentary film and videomaker. He is the co-producer
of the Academy Award-nominated "Long Night's Journey Into Day" (2000), a feature documentary about South Africa's search for truth and reconciliation, winner of the Grand Jury Prize for Best Documentary at the Sundance Film Festival and the Peace Film Prize at the Berlin Film Festival. Symons has a 10-year history of creating films on gay culture, including "Beauty Before Age" (1997), an exploration of the fear of growing older in the gay male community; "Shaving The Castro" (1995), a portrait of a 70-year-old Castro Street barber shop; and "Out In Africa" (1994), an exploration of black African gay life. Symons has a master's degree in documentary film and video production from Stanford University, where he currently works as a lecturer. He is the father of two sons, Zachary (4) and Kenyon (18 months).
"Daddy & Papa" airs on PBS Tuesday, June 3, 2003 at 10 p.m. ET. (check local listings).
The transcript follows.
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Editor's Note: Washingtonpost.com moderators retain editorial control
over Live Online discussions and choose the most relevant questions for guests and hosts; guests and hosts can decline to answer questions.
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washingtonpost.com:
What guidelines would you offer to gay couples as to when and if it is appropriate to adopt a child?
Johnny Symons: Some things that I think are important are: 1. Identifying your support system. What family and friends will help you and be there for you during the parenting years. 2. Talking with your partner about what your own motivations are for having a kid and how that is going to affect your relationship. 3. What changes are you ready to make in your own life in order to accomodate the needs of a kid. That might mean things like moving to a different neighborhood where there's a better school system; or if you're forming a multiractial family through adoption, what kinds of challenges might that create for you.
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Boston, Mass.:
I've heard wonderful things about your film but have not seen it yet (it airs in the Boston area next week). Thank you for telling this important story. My partner and I would very much like to adopt a child in the next year or two and have begun working with organizations that handle Asian adoption. With the SARS epidemic putting a halt to foreign adoptions do you have any suggestions, other organizations that I should get in touch with? Thanks so much.
Johnny Symons: Couples who want to form their own families have a number of options. Some choose international adoption; domestically through an agency or in connection with an ndividual birth mother; adopting through foster care and having a friend of surrogate bear a child. International adoption has become increasingly more difficult for single men and/or gay men. The SARS epidemic is just one more thing that's adding to this problem. So I would say I can't advocate a particular agency, but on our Web site (www.daddyandpapa.com) there is a list of parenting resources that might be useful. Many prospective parents ultimately choose to go through the foster care system where there are an enormous number of kids of different ethnic backgrounds who need homes.
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Harrisburg, Pa.:
It irks me that people do not understand that homosexuals are not necessarily child molestors. There are strong beliefs that homosexuals should have no contact with children and that they can not be parents, teachers, scout leaders, etc. By definition, heterosexuals and homosexuals are sexually attracted to other adults. A pedophile can be heterosexual, homosexual, or neither, in that there is no sexual attraction in that person to adults. Pedophiles should be restricted from children. It is unfair to make that assumption that someone is automatically sexually attracted to children because of what type of adult they are attracted to is nonsense. (In Pennsylvania, we have Senator Rick Santorum, who can't distinguish between homosexuals and bestiality, but that is another story.) Sorry this was more of a statement than a question, yet I thought it might be something you could comment on.
Johnny Symons: I think there's a long history of confusing and conflating homosexuality and pedophilia. I think when you really look at gay men who are forming their own families, pedophlilia has nothing to do with this issue and I think that becomes very evident in the film.
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Boston, Mass.:
One thing that isn't really addressed in your film is the issue of racism directed towards yourself and the other fathers for adopting minority children. I know that there are still many minority advocates who are completely against interracial adoption. Many of them say it would be better if the children were raised by parents of the same cultural heritage. I was wondering if you or the other couples experience this on a regular basis?
Johnny Symons: I don't experience those kinds of racial attitudes on a regular basis. I'm generally surprised and encouraged by how accepting peoplea are of our multi-racial family. I think the evidence is clear that kids who remain in foster care don't do nearly as well in terms of a whole host of issues as those who end up in permanent homes. As a nation we're better off looking for solutions that allow minority kids to have long-term stable families even if this means crossing racial boundaries. It would be great if there were enough adoptive families that we could place all kids with others of their same racial or ethnic background, but unfortunately, that's not the reality.
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Seattle, Wash.:
Is your film being used as a tool to change laws existing in the remaining states that prohibit or outlaw gay adoptions?
Johnny Symons: Yes, it is. And I hope that it will be used more for this purpose. The three states that currently ban gay adoption are Florida, Utah and Mississippi. A challenge to Florida's law is currently being considered by an appeals court so there's some hope for a change in that state soon. But meanwhile, other states are considering enacting bans on gay adoptions.
The Texas legislature recently considered several anti-gay adoption bans and Daddy and Papa was used to help educate the public and legislators about the reality of our families.
We did show the film in Salt Lake City and a number of political activists saw it and were excited about the possibility of using the film to help overturn the existing law there.
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Washington, D.C.:
Do children of gay parents have a tendency to grow up gay?
Johnny Symons: All of the studies that have been done on kids raised by gay and lesbian parents so far show there is no evidence that they are more likely to be gay than other kids.
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North Billerica, Mass.:
Isn't it the job of the American government to uphold Christian values? Isn't America based on the Bible, and shouldn't people who defy Biblical precepts be punished? (This has been sarcasm.)
Seriously, isn't it obnoxious that some people think it's their place to foist their morality on others, and insist that everyone's perception of the world conform to their own? For some people, it seems that being a good person is secondary to following the rules of one particular faith, and that it's better to be a bad person who espouses those rules than a good person who doesn't. Thoughts?
Johnny Symons: The issues of gay men, kids and families often brings up religion and specifically christianity. There are so many different ways to interpret terms like "good," "bad" and "christian" that this becomes very complicated. One of the most encouraging stories in the film is about our son's fundamentalist Christian foster mother who is initially opposed and terrified about the idea of gay men adopting her baby. In the film we see her do a turnaround and come to accept that, in fact, our home is a great place for Zachary. At the same time, my partner and I come to accept that she has had an enormously positive influence on his life. I think it's important for all of us to recognize that we need to meet in the middle sometimes.
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Somerville, N.J.:
I am a heterosexual, married female, 31 years old. As someone who had to grow up without my gay dad because my family was both ashamed of him and afraid of how his sexual orientation would affect me - even though I had no idea he was gay until I was finally told at 20 - I really wish I had caught your film. It sounds fascinating, and I'm so glad that gay men are starting to claim their parental rights. I so wish that my father had been there for me when I was growing up in the (court-ordered) limbo of neither being allowed to be adopted by my stepfather nor being allowed to visit my real father more than twice a year, for a few hours each time. A parent's sexuality has nothing to do with their capacity to love a child. I hope a lot of people see this film and take it to heart. Keep up the great work.
Johnny Symons: Thanks for sharing that important story. It's a testament to how far we've come as a society in the last few decades. Gay men have been fathers for thousands of years but it's only now that we can form our own families as openly gay men together with our partners. It's an enormous achievement for ourselves and for our kids.
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Washington, D.C.:
Do you in any way -- consciously or subconsciously -- want your children to be gay?
Johnny Symons: I want my children to be fully realized human beings. I want them to feel comfortable with whatever their true sexuality is in a way that I think very few people in my generation were able to be, particularly those of us who area gay. It's my goal as a parent to let my kids know that whatever their sexual orientation, I accept and support it.
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Allison Luce -- Now Treadwell, Boise, Idaho:
Remember me? Great job Johnny! My husband and I watched most of your program as we tuned in late. You look exactly as you did as a bright little kid! I'm so glad you are doing well and so talented! Your program was wonderful and your mom looks GREAT! Tell your family Hello! I hope you remember me ... Minnesota family Greg and Dianne Luce's daughter! Way to go Johnny!
Best of luck!
Allison
Johnny Symons: Hi Allison. Thanks so much for your comments. I haven't seen you in 25 years. I'm thrilled you watched the show and hope we can be in touch.
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Washington, D.C.:
What made you decide to adopt
African-American children opposed to any
other race?
Johnny Symons: Since my partner William is biracial and grew up in an African American community he felt very strongly about raising an African American child. I lived in Africa for a year and feel a strong affinity for African American culture so it felt like a natural choice for us. What we didn't realize when we decided to adopt a black child is the enormous need that exists for homes for the more than 50,000 African American kids now awaiting permanent placement in the foster care system.
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Washington, D.C.:
Mr. Symons,
Did you read the NY Times article last Sunday (in the Styles section) where BD Wong talked about his and his partner's son?
The son was conceived by BD Wong's sperm and his partner's sister's egg, thereby giving the baby genetic material from both male partners. (A surrogate mother carried the pregnancy).
Did you interview any gay couples who had a child in a similar fasion?
Johnny Symons: I didn't see the NY Times article but I have read other articles about BD Wong's book. I didn't interview anyone for the film who had a child in the way that BD did. But there are certainly many people who are choosing this route to parenthood. How to have a child is an enormously personal decision. There are lots of ethical, financial, logistical, medical and political issues at stake here. Anyone who wants to become a parent needs to ask themselves these tough questions before they make a decision about how to do it.
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City folk:
I'm sorry to have missed your film last night; will have to catch the next viewing. I'm wondering what part of the country you live in, and if you've experienced more/less racism/difficulty/etc when you travel to other areas? I know that when my partner and I leave our liberal metro area, depending on where we go, things are a lot less friendly, and we aren't even toting children.
Johnny Symons: I live in the Bay area. Fortunately it's an enormously accepting place to live with a family like ours. When we travel to other parts of the country we definitely get more looks and more questions. Riding on planes is always a particularly challenging and often amusing experience. But I am generally very encouraged by how supportive people are of what we are doing. We've had amazing conversations with people from all parts of the country who share their own personal stories about gay people, about parenting, about foster care, adoption and multi-racial families. The two-parent heterosexual family is no longer the norm and more and more people are recognizing that.
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Silver Spring, Md.
Lesbians who adopt seem to be featured more prominently in the media. Do they tend adopt more frequently or are gay men underrepresented in the news?
Also, for gay male couples, adoption vs. surrogate mothers? What are should be considered when making that type of decision?
Johnny Symons: More lesbians than gay men form families so it makes sense that we might hear about them more often. But I also think that the general public is a little more comfortable with the idea of two moms raising a kid than two dads. Consequently the media is more likely to show families headed by lesbians than gay men. That's one of the reasons I made this film and decided to focus on gay men's experiences in forming families.
As for the second part of your question, please refer to my comments above.
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Takoma Park, Md.:
Many studies have shown that children raised in family environments where education is underemphasized rarely go on to college.
Do you believe that the environment a child is raised in affects his development?
If so, can you honestly say that raising a child in a gay household won't affect his/her sexual development?
Johnny Symons: The studies that I've read show that being raised by gay parents affects children's development in at least one specific way: These kids tend to adhere less to traditional gender roles. In other words, their perceptions of possibility for themselves as men or as women are much more open than kids raised in typical heterosexual homes. I think that's a good thing.
There's a propensity to look for the ways in which growing up with gay parents might damage kids, but in fact it may offer them some advantages.
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Arlington, Va.:
You said that two-parent heterosexual families aren't the norm anymore.
You aren't putting down the traditional family, are you?
Don't you believe that children receive something vital from both a mother and a father?
Johnny Symons: I think children recieve something vital from parents who love, support, encourage and engage their children. Those parents take all forms, be they a man and a woman, a single parent, two women or two men.
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Helena, Mont.:
I am a straight mother of 2 and was a single parent for 9 years. I know some of the tribulations you are going threw first hand. I think it is wonderful that you showed loving parents who wanted children. The children were happy and healthy. There are a lot of children out there who don't have that and they are with a straight family. I think anyone who truely loves a child and is willing to make the sacrifices of parenthood should have the chance! I applaud you for your courage and sacrifices. I hope that the states will change the laws that discriminate against you. I hope that ACLU will take Florida's law (and any other states)to the Supreme Court. Thank you for making such a wonderful film, you are a hero!
Johnny Symons: Thanks so much for your words of encouragement. It's critical for all of us to work together to change the way that America thinks of family. I appreciate your drawing the links between single parents and gay parents. There are many of us whose families are not traditional. Yet regardless of what our famlies look like, we're all trying to do the best for our kids.
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Johnny Symons: You can go to www.daddyandpapa.com or www.pbs.org/independentlens for more information about the film and local TV listings. It will be airing again in many parts of the country and will air for the first time in New York and Los Angeles on Father's Day.
Thanks for your questions and thanks to PBS for supporting this programming.
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washingtonpost.com:
That wraps up
today's show. Thanks to everyone who joined the
discussion.
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