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'Two Towns of Jasper'
With Marco Williams and Whitney Dow
Filmmakers
Thursday, Jan. 23, 2003; 2 p.m. ET

The PBS P.O.V. documentary "Two Towns of Jasper" documents the aftermath of the murder of James Byrd, Jr. -- who was chained to a pick-up truck and dragged to his death by three white supremacists -- from the perspectives of the black and white communities in Jasper, Tex. Filmmakers Whitney Dow and Marco Williams were online Thursday, Jan. 23 at 2 p.m. ET, to discuss their motivation behind making the film and the murder of James Byrd, Jr.

Williams, who is black, filmed the black community in Jasper; Dow, himself white, filmed the white community. "Two Towns of Jasper" provides an explicit accounting of the racial divide in America -- a montage of contrasting realities.

The transcript follows.

Editor's Note: Washingtonpost.com moderators retain editorial control over Live Online discussions and choose the most relevant questions for guests and hosts; guests and hosts can decline to answer questions.

washingtonpost.com: Marco, Whitney, thank you for joining us today. In a second we'll start taking questions from Washington Post readers who saw your P.O.V. documentary.

Before we get started, could you talk a little bit about the genesis of this film? How long have you been friends? How did the idea for the movie come up and how did you decide to split production duties along racial lines?

Whitney Dow and Marco Williams: Whitney Dow: The gist of the film came out of Marco and my friendship -- a 20 year friendship with a lot of shared history. Something we both agreed on is that there's no functional language to discuss race anymore. And this was our attempt to create a language by allowing others to listen in to people talking honestly about issues and ideas.

Denver, Colo.: I am wondering how it is that you two have been able to process your experiences while making this film. I know that I literally felt sick while watching this, and hearing more about what happened to James Byrd, Jr., and wonder about the lasting effects it has had on you.

Whitney Dow and Marco Williams: Whitney: Making this film was a profound experience. But even more profound was the first trip I made to Jasper in 1998, two weeks after the murder and driving down that road and seeing the 83 different marks the police had made to identify body marks. And standing in the spot they'd left his body where you could still see the stain clearly outlined. It shook me to the core. And, you know, I think Marco also had a similar experience. We agreed that if we could transport people down there in some way that perhaps we wouldn't have to make the film. But other than that, in our efforts to work together to create the film out of two very different experiences and spending a year in Jasper, I also came to a much deeper understanding of how differently black and white Americans feel about every single event.

Georgia: Is there any postive proof that the"good old boy" policy has changed since this horrible crime has been made public? Or is there still an understood but not publicly acknowledged silent law for certain people?

Whitney Dow and Marco Williams: Whitney: Two things. One, that the racist policies didn't play out in Jasper in that these guys were convicted of capital murder. So, in effect, the officials did break the mold -- they did do something that hadn't been done before. It's not just Jasper. There are different rules for everywhere in this country depending on the color of skin, gender, religious belief -- so it's not Jasper, Tex., it's America.

Boston, Mass.: I felt that the portrayal of the white population in the town of Jasper was manipulated. The majority of the whites shown were uneducated and racist. It was obvious to my class and me that there was a large difference between the way the black and white people spoke. My question, is that in the editing, how much did you pay attention to the education levels of the people you interviewed, and showed in the film? Is there a reason not to show all members of different class levels in EACH race?

Whitney Dow and Marco Williams: Whitney: First of all, that is a question that is probably based on being from so far away. That's not an accurate statement in that the white people are from a variety of economic and educational levels. The Bubbas, one who owns a funeral home, one owns a nursery, one a lighting store, one has a chiropractic clinic -- most are mid to uppermiddle class people. Three have college educations and one has an advanced degree. And there are also people who install telephones in that room. And that's why I chose them -- because they did represent a broad swath of Jasper's white society.

Secondly, if it is manipulative, it is in the way that I worked hard to have the things they said not just representative of the Bubbas, but actually things I heard all over town from the white community. I think it's very, and I grew up in Boston -- Cambridge -- and I know that I think there's a tendency to try to push away these people, but I've sat at tables in Boston -- and I'm a middle class white guy -- where those comments would not be surprising or out of place and I ask you, I'm not sure what age you are, but I'm assuming you've heard someone disparage someone for perhaps being gay, or make a racial joke or say something that made you feel uncomfortable. I often say that when asked this question that if you don't see and hear familiar things there, you're not being honest with yourself.

That's been our biggest challenge with the film -- that people can connect with everyone.

Philadelphia, Pa.: Excellent documentary. It wasn't until after the documentary that I found out the interviewing was race-based. It does explain the frankness of some of the white interviewees. My question is as follows: At the end of the docuumentary, when you left Jasper, what was your conclusion? That Mr. Byrd's death will not change things at all in Jasper and beyond?

Whitney Dow and Marco Williams: Whitney: That calls into question how you would define change and I would say, absolutely things have changed in Jasper. That this is an incredible experience for this small town to go through and certain individuals we see in the film have changed in some way.

We showed the film to the ministerial alliance a few weeks ago before we released it and there was a theme from the white community that things have changed and from the black community that things hadn't changed and I think in a way they're both right.

For the white community -- this made them think about things differently. But perhaps for the black community, that hasn't affected their access to the communities' institutions. I think it comes down to a different perception of what constitutes racism and what needs to be worked on and I think the white community views race on an individual level. The black community views it on an institutional level. So in the black community doesn't care that you're nicer to me if I still can't get a mortgage.

Dresden, Ontario, Canada: Question: What was, at that time, Governor Goerge Bush's reason for not supporting a tougher legislation against hate crimes?

Whitney Dow and Marco Williams: Whitney: I think George Bush has said that he does not support hate crimes legislation because in his mind it's hard to legislate motive or thought. It's perhaps easier to punish action. During a presidential debate, he pointed to the James Byrd case saying these guys got death -- what more could they get. What penalty could be stiffer than death.

Batavia, Ill.: What reaction has the making of this film had on the lives of you both?

Whitney Dow and Marco Williams: Marco: Well, you know, this project was had a huge effect on our lives. We have been touring around the country and the world with the film since Jan. 2002. It's our great fortune to screen for a variety of people and in every instance I found myself engaged in dynamic challenging dialogue and reflection about race. On a more personal level, it's made me reflect and think about the meaning of race relations and how I feel about the complexity of race relations.

Whitney: I think that I addressed some of this in the first question.

Atlanta, Ga.: What is Mr. Byrd's daughter doing these days? How is she dealing with her fathers death?

Whitney Dow and Marco Williams: Marco: I don't know what she is up to these days. I will knwo more about that tonight. I'm told that she will be in attendance at the town meeting, as well as her brother and sister. So I will have a chance to hear. I know she had a baby in the year after her father's death, so in that way, life has gone on for each of them. And in a positive sense, in the midst of loss there was creation.

Dallas, Tex.: I lived in Jasper, Tex., for 20 years and never once witnessed a "racial divide" among the townspeople. I am so sick of the media turning this horrible act into much more than it is and continuing to label Jasper as a white racist city. Jasper suffered severely because of the acts of three sick individuals and the media is taking advantage of this tragic murder to reinforce that racism is still alive and well in America today. Yes, racism may still exist to some extent, but not to the extent that it's being portrayed in Jasper, Tex. Do you not realize stories like this fuel the hunger in people who thrive on controversy and hostility! Let the people of Jasper, Tex. live in peace!

Whitney Dow and Marco Williams: Whitney: I'm guessing you're white. I spent a good deal of time in Jasper and I spent over 100 days in 1999 in Jasper. If you spent 20 years in Jasper and never witnessed a racial divide, you had an extraordinary experience in this town. I like Jasper, the people here could not have been more generous to me, nicer to me, more open to me -- yet in just about every conversation, or every relationship, at some point race would be addressed in some of the most heartfelt, harsh and difficult ways I've ever expereienced. It is not unique to Jasper, and I believe the same issues and divides Marco and I found in Jasper exist in every community. I certainly don't think the issues that divide us can be addressed if we don't acknowledge them.

Marco: I believe that it's important to call attention to all injustices, no matter how extreme or seemingly insignificant. To blame the media is to miss the profound meaning of the murder of James Byrd on the lives of all Americans. I would hope that you are as vigilant in the sense of racial insensitivity or insensitivity concerning distance as you are angered by your perception that the media has blown this out of proportion. I agree with Whitney that the important thing is that our film -- while it is about Jasper and the trial of the men -- it is ultimately a means to work out and consider the themes of race relations in America.

Santa Paula, Calif.: During the filming of the video, did you find any white people in the town who were willing to admit the inherent privilege afforded to them on the basis of their skin color, and who were willing to not only question that privilege but wanted to dismantle it?

Whitney Dow and Marco Williams: Whitney: I met some people that were certainly willing to admit that and I think although they didn't express it in the terms of white skin privilege, which is a concept which has yet to make it into the mainstream dialogue on race. But I certainly did meet people who recognized the laws and the relationship and perhaps their position as white people in town as being people that might unintentionally perpetuate it. And were interested in doing what they could to change the paradigm. I think the question that they had and we all have is what are the actions that I can take?

Buffalo, N.Y.: As an African-American woman teaching Cultural Diversity to a group of junior college students, (mostly white), how do I balance this issue such that I step outside of my views and serve the third position. That being there is a place were the to cultures might meet and show responsiveness to this painful and difficult occurance?

Whitney Dow and Marco Williams: Marco: I would like to direct your investigation to our Web site, twotownsofjasper.com or the Web site of P.O.V. (pov.org) and to let you see the facilitator's guide that provides some ideas for the concerns that you have. How to facilitate the discussion -- recognizing that it's difficult if you're not in touch with your own emotions.

Even though it's difficult for you, do not shy away from your sense of responsibility as a teacher, as an African-American woman, as a woman and as a human being.

Emeryville, Calif.: 1. What about other minorities in/around Jasper, Tex.? Are there Native Americans, Hispanics, Mexican Americans?

2. What did you go through to get this independent film made: funding, access, barriers, difficulties?

3. Will you dig deeper into the "white power," "black power," extremist organizations in follow up documentaries? It has been a long time since "Black Moon Rising" "Harvest of Shame" and you both seem to have what it takes to carry on in Edward R. Murrow, Bill Moyers, Ken Burns footsteps. So I'd like to know what you have planned next.

Whitney Dow and Marco Williams: Marco: We received funding from the Independent Television Service, the Corp. for Public Broadcasting and two smaller foundations. This is a project we started in the summer of 1998. We didn't finish the film till January 2002. As you can appreciate from 3-1/2 years, it requires commitment.

At the time that we made the film, the demographics were about 45 percent black, 49 percent white and the remaining percentage other. I came into contact with very few asian or native americans. That doesn't mean our film is only about black and white, it is about difference in the same way that "Who Killed Richard Chin" is not explicitly about Asian Americans. It is about our multi-ethnic society, the relationship of a people.

Marco: We are still in this project, we're not sure of what our next project would be and thank you for the compliments. And hopefully you'll see our names associated with other provacative films in the future.

Hampton, Va.: Are you two more or less "hopeful" regarding race relations after producing the film?

Also, you two available to make joint appearances at local diversity conferences? If so, how do we contact you?

Whitney Dow and Marco Williams: Whitney: Yes and yes. I would say I'm definitely more hopeful because I feel so much better informed and so much more comfortable in the ability to have honest dialogue and going into the project I didn't believe there really was any honest dialogue and it was -- through making this film with Marco, i learned how to speak honestly about race and Marco learned to speak honestly to me and that is a starting point. To find out about how to get in contact with us, go to www.workingfilms.org, who is managing a two year outreach project around the film that we have planned.

Marco: I am more troubled than I've ever been regarding race relations in America. And while that statement suggests a very dark cloud of which I would say, yes, and also the fact that I'm able to say that is a direct result of making this film, which gives me the hope that a way to come to an understanding or find common ground could be possible. But I am more acutely aware of aspects of the race relations matrix than I've ever been before. And yet, I'm a black man in America and have always been sensitive to race relations -- many times having been victim to racial hostility, but I"ve learned a great deal about myself and about Whitney and that allows me to apply it to white Americans.

Richmond, Va.: Now that the trial in this case is over and the two of you have been friends for quite some time, how has this situation changed your friendship? Has it bonded or strained the relationship?

Whitney Dow and Marco Williams: Marco: I think both is the answer. I want to say that unfortunately there are not any simple answers. With one exception -- if you or anyone hopes to come to a more thorough appreciation or understanding about friendship across race you must engage yourself at that enterprise at all levels. As Whitney has often said, you must support and reinforce what you have in common but you must have the courage, the fortitude, to explore that what is not in common and makes you uncomfortable. Whitney and i have had the great privilege to do this type of work over the last 4 1/2 years which has had a profoundly positive impact on a relationship that was already 20 years in the making.

Whitney: I think that Marco covered it very well.

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