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'Kingdom of David:
The Saga of the Israelites'
With Carl Byker
Senior Producer, Writer, Director
Thursday, May 15, 2003; 1 p.m. ET

As the history of the Middle East -- namely the Israelis and Arabs -- has dominated the news and the world's attention, a new film on PBS explains the history of the Israelites and Judaism in the region. "Kingdom of David: The Saga of the Israelites," airing in two parts on May 14 and May 21, at 9 p.m. ET (check local listings) is the latest in the "Empires" series of historical programs.

Through the stories of the patriarch Abraham, the liberator Moses, King David, and others, the series follows the tribes of Israel in four parts: "By the Rivers of Babylon"; "The Book and the Sword"; "The End of Days"; and "The Gifts of the Jews." Producer Carl Byker was online Thursday, May 15.

The transcript follows.

Byker's documentaries have won two duPont Columbia Awards, a Peabody Award, and a Primetime Emmy Award for best non-fiction series of the year. He is also a two-time winner of the Writer's Guild of America award for best non-fiction script of the year. His films include the PBS Special "The Great War and the Shaping of the 20th Century," the highly acclaimed eight-part social history of World War I; "Woodrow Wilson" for American Experience"; Chasing the Sun," a four-part film on the history of commercial aviation; and "The Duel," the story of the deadly encounter between Alexander Hamilton and Aaron Burr.

Editor's Note: Washingtonpost.com moderators retain editorial control over Live Online discussions and choose the most relevant questions for guests and hosts; guests and hosts can decline to answer questions.

Mt. Lebanon, Pa.: So where is the oldest intact copy of the Bible today? Approximately when was it written? Who does it really belong to? And why hasn't it been given back? "Thou shalt not steal" or words to the effect. Right? Thanks much.

Carl Byker: So far as I know, and I'm just speculating, the oldest copies of the Bible are in the Dead Sea Scrolls. That was why finding the Scrolls was such a momentus event, because it gave civilization a much older copy of many of the books of the Bible. And that made it possible to compare the later texts with the earlier ones, and make a surprising number of corrections to the one we had previously.

An interesting point about the passing down of the Bible was that Hebrew at the time was written without vowels and without punctuation. So as our second show points out, there was a tremendous amount of interpretation by each generation as they copied down the Bible. So in some ways, as one of the experts in the show says, it's that interpretation that has allowed Judaism to remain fresh and current.

Toledo, Ohio: How close does your show follow the Biblical account of Abraham's life's events?

Carl Byker: The show follows the biblical account of Abraham's life quite closely, but of course because we only spend about eight minutes on it, we selectively chose the major events. And interestingly, one of the things we added that isn't in the Bible is the story in the Talmud of Abraham's relationship with his father, who the Talmud says was a maker of idols. And that story, that's been handed down verbally in Jewish tradition, I felt that in putting that in, it really gave a sense of how these stories were handed down -- adding the Talmud gave a sense of oral tradition and how it was added to the Bible.

Washington, D.C.: Based on what you found out about Abraham, how radical was the idea of one god at the time?

Carl Byker: As the show makes clear, the idea of one god became accepted by the Israelites over a very long period of time. Abraham has come to accept that moment of acceptance, but the archaeological record makes clear, most Isrealites were polytheists until the end of the writing of the Bible. Many even believed that God had a wife, a goddess named Asherah. So this points out perhaps even more powerfully how radical the idea of one god was. It was entirely a new idea in the world.

College Park, Md.: Have you read "God Knows," Joseph Heller's book about David that mixes biblical citations with fiction? If yes, what in it is in the Bible or historically true? Thanks.

Carl Byker: No, I haven't read it. But as one of the experts in the show points out, David's story in the Bible really is the first novel, written as you suggest, by the first literary genius in history. And perhaps the story of David was based on real events, but what the writers of the Bible always did was to re-imagine them to get at their inner meaning, and teach lessons about how human beings should live.

Lyme, Conn.: I envision Abraham looking over all his descendants and, like a family leader, telling all his children and children's children, "quit your bickering." It is sad, because much of the fighting is over whose flag gets to fly over pieces of land. Surely the lives of all would be better without all this fighting. Why can't all sides decide that disputed lands be governed jointly? Fly both an Israeli and a Palestianian flag, and you can determine whether you prefer your public services be done by Israeli or Palestinian public managers (or, as should increase over time, by joint administrators)? Maybe the establishment of a Palestinian state and the achievement of a secure Israel will produce this peace. What are your thoughts on how peace will finally be achieved?

Carl Byker: One of the interesting things about the third episode is that it helps us see the birth of terrorism as a political tool. And one of the reasons peace is clearly so difficult to achieve in the Middle East is that each side believes that it is the one doing God's will. And when you believe that you're doing God's will, it's very hard to be convinced that you should compromise.

Arlington, Va.: Does terrorism in the name of faith have roots back to the dawn of Judaism, or even back to Abraham? If he was the first person to talk about only one god, that must have been controversial.

Carl Byker: As the show points out, the roots of both martyrdom and certainly one version of political assassination lie within early versions of Judaism. The Jews were the first willing to fight and die for their religion in history. And that willingness gives a zealot the sense that even though they're committing terrible acts of terror, they're doing it in God's name.

Vienna, Va.: Given the violent history of the region, do you feel there is any chance for the Israelites to be able to live side-by-side with the Arabs in the region?

Carl Byker: Yes. And I think it lies in what the stories of the Bible are really about. The real point of the Bible, as the great Rabbi Hillel points out, is that each of us is obligated to treat every other human being in an ethical fashion, because every other human being is also created in the image of God. And when, as one of the rabbis in the series points out, we see the image of God in every other human being, then we can create a society that is compassionate, that is just, that is kind.

Washington, D.C.: The question of identity and nationalism is such a huge one in the Middle East. Did the Israelites acquire their identity in a similar way as other groups in the region? And if so, why the seeming lack of understanding as to why self-determination is so very important?

Carl Byker: One of the ground-breaking bits of information in the series is that most scholars now believe that the Israelites were natives of the land of Canaan who came together during a time of trouble and became a people not by fighting battles but by telling stories. And these stories succeeded in giving them an identity that has lasted for 3,000 years.

Unfortunately, one of the things about human nature is that we define ourselves in opposition to others. And for instance, even though early Christianity was a form of Judaism, the need to define itself as different led to the birth of anti-Semitism.

Philadelphia, Pa.: Do you see Christianity as an extension of Judaism?

Carl Byker: It's impossible to understand Christianity without understanding its Jewish roots. The very idea that a Messiah is going to come and set the world right is a fundamentally Jewish idea. Also, as the show points out, we see that in the 3rd and 2nd centuries B.C., many of the elements of what we think of as fundamentalist Christianity were already coming into being. The belief that the Bible was written by God, the belief in heaven and hell, and that a Messiah would come and oversee Judgment Day were all new Jewish ideas that came to life in this period.

One of the key events in human history was when a Roman general named Constantine embraced Christianity. Because that gave Christianity political power. And from that moment on, not only were Christians who didn't agree with Constantine's sect put under persecution, but the idea arose that Jews were a threat to this new kind of Christianity. And so, for the first time, in the 4th century B.C., 300 years after the death of Jesus, the term "Christ killer" was used to describe the Jews.

Alexandria, Va.: How did the Roman Empire affect the development of Judaism as a religion?

Carl Byker: Rome forced the Jews to re-think who they were. And different sects responded very differently. Hillel, like Jesus, said that there was no need to worry about who was the earthly power; one should focus on how to live in one's own life. But the zealots thought that God was calling them to throw off Roman rule.

Their uprising led to the Roman destruction of the second Temple in 70 A.D. This was the watershed moment in the history of Judaism, because it was the death of the religion of priests and sacrifices that the Hebrew Bible describes. Out of the ashes arose an entirely new kind of Judaism, built around synagogues, rabbis and prayer.

Silver Spring, Md.: How did Alexander the Great and the Greek conquest affect Judaism?

Carl Byker: The Greeks had an incredible effect on Judaism. On the one hand, the Greek love of wisdom inspired Jews for the first time to treat the Bible as their own divine book of wisdom. On the other hand, the threat of assimilation that the Greeks represented forced the Jews to stand up and defend the divine book in the revolution of the Maccabees -- the first war of conscience in human history.

Vienna, Va.: While I am neither Jewish myself nor of Hebrew descent, when one looks at the ancient history of this region, and particuliarly the Bible itself, it would seem to lend quite a bit of support to the Israeli view today (particularly the Likud and Molodet political Parties), that the West Bank is indeed Jewish territory and that the so-called Palestinians in fact do not have any real historical claim to it. This may be hard for Mr. Arafat to accept, but the lessons of history here are clear. but History shows is that this area remained in Jewish hands as long as they kept their Covenant with their God -- and none of their enemies prospered. When they broke that covenant, they lost this territory, until they saw the mistake of their ways. Even after the massive loss in the First Century when the Romans took it once and for all, some 1900 years later (in 1947) the Kingdom was restored. And the history of the last 60 years or so shows that it will be futile for the present-day enemies of Israel to try and take it back. It just isn't going to happen.

Carl Byker: One of the reasons it's so hard to find peace in the Middle East is that the settlements on the West Bank are seen by Jewish settlers as being the exact place in history where Abraham was buried or Jacob dreamed of building a ladder to heaven. But now we know that those were stories, not historical fact. And the important thing to recognize is that the writing of those stories was one of the most important events in history, because they contain within them lessons about how to live and treat one's fellow human beings. And what the Bible really offers is a roadmap toward peace in the Middle East, not justification for continued bloodshed.

Washington, D.C.: Many people have theories about what the Bible is and should be. Some say it is a metaphor, others view it as a historically correct document. Can you talk about the differences between the two sides within Judaism, and how it affects the different ways the religion is practiced?

Carl Byker: Jews sometimes are called the People of the Book. But as James Kugel of Harvard says, they are the people of the interpretation of the book. And so even to say that the Bible is all true leaves one with the job of saying what it means. And so it's impossible for humans not to insert themselves into the process with their own modern concerns and prejudices. But this attitude about what the Bible is certainly has defined different groups of Jews. And that debate continues to this day.

Fairfax, Va.: Ignorance also causes much of the strife in the Middle East. When I was living in Saudi Arabia, several apparently well-educated Muslim women assured me that Jerusalem has no meaning at all to Jews. They were surprised to hear that it is mentioned frequently in Hebrew Scriptures! But then the Bible, and all Jewish and Christian writings, are illegal in Saudi Arabia. This ignorance leads to outlandish notions.

Carl Byker: Knowledge is a powerful tool, and that's what drew me to doing the series. Understanding what the Bible really is, how it's been interpreted over history, and how that interpretation has evolved is a source of real enlightenment about the history of Western Civilization.

Washington, D.C.: Can you talk about some of the difficulties in shooting a historical show in Israel? Were there any?

Carl Byker: Yes. It was a real challenge shooting in Israel. The security concerns kept everyone on edge. At the same time, it was a fantastic experience shooting in Nazareth, at Masada, and at a village called Qatzrin on the shore of the Dead Sea. The entire experience gave me real insight into what Judea must have been like in the 1st century, when there was tremendous tension between Rome and the Jewish terrorists.

Washington, D.C.: When was this show filmed? What were the logistics involved in shooting it in the Middle East?

Carl Byker: It was filmed in the winter and spring of 2002.

Rockville, Md.: What don't most people know about the origins of Judaism? And how did it develop so differently from Islam?

Carl Byker: What most people don't know about Judaism is that it began not at the beginning of the Bible, but at the end. Until the end of the writing of the Bible, it appears that there was only ever a very tiny group of monotheists at the Temple in Jerusalem. But during the exile in Babylon, when the Israelites were threatened with extinction, the editing together of their story and the reading of this new book by the exiles led to the transformation of Israelite religion into something new that we can call the earliest form of Judaism.

It's interesting to compare Judaism and Islam. The very fact that the Romans took over the Middle East, and the Jews lost all political power, led to the evolution of a very different kind of Judaism. The fact that Islam has often been a religion with political power certainly has shaped it in interesting ways.

Washington, D.C.: The Bible isn't illegal in Saudi Arabia. Islam is based not only on the Quran, but also on the Old and New Testaments. Talk about your ignorance.

Carl Byker: One of the fascinating experiences during the Roman scenes we shot in Tunisia was to see that the most important holiday in Tunisia is the celebration of the day when Abraham sacrificed a ram instead of his son, Ishmael. This story was deliberately taken by Mohammed from the Bible. And virtually all scholars believe that Islam has deep roots in Judaism.

Washington, D.C.: I'm a Catholic who majored in Arab and Islamic studies and minored in Jewish studies. Weirdly enough, it wasn't until after I graduated that I realized that, while I understand the major tenets of religious Christians and Muslims, I still do not know what religious Jews believe. I know their practices, rituals, history, Zionism, but I don't have any idea about the dogma -- as in Christianity's life after death, sacredness of all life, etc. Can you summarize?

Carl Byker: One of the interesting things about Judaism is that since there is no Pope, there is no universal dogman. So there's about as wide as possible spectrum of belief as you can imagine. Some Orthodox Jews believe that the Messiah is still coming. Other, more liberal Jews believe that the entire point of the Bible is to teach us how to live ethically in the here and now. And in between those two, there is every shade of belief imaginable. Certainly, for many Orthodox Jews, living according to the laws of the Bible is one of the most important things in life. Hence the dietary laws, etc.

Re: Vienna, Va., comments: Historical claim just has absolutely no bearing on the current Israeli situation. Just because Jews lived there 2000 years ago does not give them the right to rule an apartheid state. As an American, it's hard to wrap my mind around the region's obsession with land and history -- since we've got so much of one and so little of the other. But historical claim arguments are moot. Otherwise we'd be living in a country governed by native Americans.

Carl Byker: Just what I was thinking of saying.

Alexandria, Va.: Re: The birth of anti-Semitism -- wasn't there anti-Semitism before there were Christians? Or do you think that there was something else motivating the Amalekites, Edomites, Egyptians, etc.?

Carl Byker: It's very important to define normal national warfare and struggle for regional dominance as something different than the idea that an entire people are worthless or evil because of what they believe. And one of the interesting things about Christian anti-Semitism is that scholars now see the period when both this new rabbinical Judaism was evolving, as was early Christianity, as one of the most fascinating times in history as each was struggling to define itself in contrast with the other. And most people today would say that the roots of Western anti-Semitism lay in that struggle.

New York, N.Y.: What do you feel is the biggest misconception about the origins of Judaism?

Carl Byker: I think that there are two kinds of misconceptions. One is that the Bible is entirely accurate, and that's its historical importance. The other is that the Bible is nothing but a book of stories and not worth thinking about. The reality is that the people who wrote the Bible had more impact on human history than any general who ever lived. And so, it seems to me that the most important thing for people today to do is to look at how the Bible really came into being, and then contemplate the almost miracle of how much impact it has had on who we are and how we see ourselves.

washingtonpost.com:

That wraps up today's show. Thanks to everyone who joined the discussion.

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