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'Testing Our Schools'
With John Merrow
Executive Producer/Host, "The Merrow Report"; Correspondent, "Frontline"
Friday, March 29, 2002; 11 a.m. EST
Last fall, members of Congress from both parties pledged to make passing President Bush's education reform bill their sole priority on the domestic front. The president's plan: improve education by making clear what schools are supposed to teach and holding them accountable if students fall short. This new model has sparked a national testing frenzy that has left many asking whether such tests may ultimately fail our students.
FRONTLINE's "Testing Our Schools," produced with PBS's education series "The Merrow Report," airs on PBS Thursday, March 28, at 9 p.m. EST. Correspondent John Merrow examines how the quest for higher test scores is changing teaching and learning in America, focusing on schools in Virginia, California and Massachusetts. Merrow was online to talk about the drive for accountability on Friday, March 29.
Merrow, the executive producer and host of "The Merrow Report on PBS and NPR, was an English teacher in New York and Virginia from 1964-70. He began reporting on youth and education for NPR in 1974 with a series of radio documentaries, "Options in Education," and has been a commentator for NPR's "Morning Edition," "All Things Considered" and "Marketplace." Merrow was education correspondent for "The MacNeil/Lehrer NewsHour" from 1985-90 and has been a correspondent, executive producer and host for several education series on PBS and The Learning Channel.
The transcript follows.
Editor's Note: Washingtonpost.com moderators retain editorial control
over Live Online discussions and choose the most relevant questions for guests and hosts; guests and hosts can decline to answer questions.
Los Angeles, Calif.:
Are there any non-profit groups working against the trend to overtest?
Your Web site listed numerous testing advocacy groups, but no resources for voicing concerns about the harm a heavy focus on standardized testing does to creativity, how it ignores individual learning styles and paces. Bringing up the bottom rung of students is one issue. But we are loosing sight of the importance of teaching children creative problem solving, which can't be revealed in a standardized test. In a country where communication, arts, and entertainment have become huge revenue generators; our educational system is completely turning away from the arts, music, and creative writing. None of these can be tested and they are disappearing from the curriculum in the lower grades (starting in kindergarten).
John Merrow: You might want to learn more about eduducation reform groups like the Coalition of Essential Schools. The Coalition in particular endorses 'public demonstrations' of what students have learned, as well as 'portfolios' of student work.
My own view is similar to that expressed by George Madaus on the program: we need 'multiple measures,' not 'multiple opportunities' to take the same (multiple choice) test.
Spring Valley, N.Y.:
Tests and standards are a reality that must be reckoned with. How can we help educators, paents and students deal with the reality in a productive way?
John Merrow: Standards are a good thing. My own view is that we ought to ask more of our kids, not less. But as the program last night made clear, it is hard work, this business of setting standards. It's just so much easier to skip ahead to the test, and that's what some states (especially California) did. Accountability is also essential, but that's a complex notion. Relying on scores on one test, especially if it's multiple-choice, is simply bad policy.
In the program last night we glided over the issue of cheating (we had to make some tough choice), but that is a reality, unfortunately. The pressure is just too intense when everything hangs on one test.
How to deal with the reality? Get involved in the standards debate (but don't just add more to the curriculum). Look at the standards documents from other countries (which you can get access to through the American Federation of Teachers website), and you will find SLIM volumes.
I have to plug my new book here, because it includes a chapter or two addressing this issue, and each chapter concludes with a list of questions that I think parents ought to ask of their school people. The book is Choosing Excellence, published by Scarecrow Press
washingtonpost.com:
FYI: The American Federation of Teachers Web site
SOL, Virginia:
It can be argued that regular testing is the best way to evaluate the progress of a school/student. But it can also be said that this emphasis on testing has created unnecessary pressure on schools and taken away from the real point which is having the knowledge itself. Which side to you tend to lean toward? Is there a compromise you can suggest?
John Merrow: It depends on what you mean by 'regular testing.' When I was teaching English (in HS, college and federal prison) I had my students write THREE times a week. I called these assignments "2-8-2" (don't know how to write the plural). I would give the class a phrase to write about, two minutes to think and make notes, eight minutes to write, and two minutes to correct. I had some firm rules: a sentence error, unless noted as done deliberately, meant a grade of ZERO. points off for fundamental grammar and punctuation errors. credit for well-argued points, and so on.
I returned the papers the next day. If I couldn't do that, then students could accept the grade or reject it.
And I told the students that I would discard their lowest grades (10% of them, I think) In the college class (attendance not required), I still gave the writing assigments, gave ZERO if a student missed the class, but discarded the bottom 10% of grades.
This long note is my way of endorsing regular TESTING. But teacher-made tests, done right and returned right away, are still the single BEST measure of achievement.
The flaw here is in the system. We don't trust teachers, often with good reason unfortunately.
In the USA, we hire lots of poorly trained people and pay them very little. Then we hire expensive people to supervise them. Does the expression "shoot yourself in the foot" come to mind?
Souderton, Pa.:
John,
I am a teacher at a charter school that is in its second year of operation. We believe in project-based learning where children explore ideas of their interest and learn through topics of which they can relate. We also respect the fact that children learn at different rates and have different experiences and backgrounds. Standardized tests do not allow for children to be different -- as all humans are. To measure children against a national standard is inappropriate. We are saying that they all need to be good at the same things, and the worst part is that the tests do not measure the real knowledge a child may have and how they can apply their knowledge to real life experiences. What about the social curriculum? Do we not want to teach children how to work together, to collaborate, to dialogue and share ideas? How can teachers find time to do these types of activities in a classroom when they are teaching to a test? There is no collaboration, team work, experimentation, projects, or hands-on experiences. Do our politicians understand any of this?
John Merrow: Project-based learning makes sense, if the teacher has time to be involved in each project.
But standardized tests also make sense. Let's be clear about the meaning of 'standardized.' All it means is that you and I and everyone else operate according to the same rules. You don't get an hour to take the test while I only get 15 minutes. And so on.
We need standards, well-thought out ones, and we need some reliable, valid measures that allow us to make some judgements about different students.
John Goodlad, the dean of American reformers, has doubts about standards. Basically, he suggests that, even if we got the standards 'right,' perhaps schools would still not be teaching the skills that young people need to survive: communication, teamwork, the ability to interpret data, the ability to manipulate information, and so on. These are basically what are called the SCANS skills, developed in the Labor Department during the Reagan years. SCANS stands for Secretary's Commission on Achieving Necessary Skills, and those ideas are actually not far from what you seem to be talking about.
'Do our politicians understand?' Most don't, or they don't have the courage to speak straight truth. Not sure which is worse....
Spanaway, Wash.:
I appreciated your program very much. Here in Washington, we have Washington Assessment of Student Learning, which is part "bubble-in" and part short and long answer. Though simpler testing formats can be just that, "simplistic," and not measure a fraction of what kids can do, we're finding that trying to test student writing and math reasoning on a state test becomes even more of a problem, as grading writing and math explaination is an art that should not be left to temporary workers in another state. These tests are also much more costly, so tend to sap our resources that could be going to the school and classroom for very real basic needs (student housing and teachers, for example). It seems to me, that it's time to start trusting parents and teachers as the final authority of a child's capabilities.
How do you feel about the expansion of testing to essays and math explaination on the state and national level? Who should have the final authority over whether a student receives a diploma? Also, do you think special needs students should receive an "alternative" diploma if they can't pass a state test?
Thank you,
Juanita Doyon
John Merrow: You have asked good questions and stated the dilemmas well. I said earlier that we don't trust teachers, and that to me (a former teacher) is the heart of the issue. Well, maybe it's deeper in that we haven't really debated what we mean by 'education.'
If I were a politician I would see if I could figure out what the best schools do (public, private, parochial), and then figure out ways to copy those practices.
That would mean a variety of approaches, of course. So let's have variety (let 100 flowers bloom!), and then give parents and students their choice. If no one chooses the school I run, let it close!
Re expensive tests: I think the AP and IB tests cost about $60 to administer, as opposed to the $6 it costs for something like the SAT-9. That might be a good investment IF the results are available fairly quickly.
Test scores describe. And that's all. They do not DIAGNOSE. That requires a skilled professional. I have to plug my book here, because I go into this in some detail.
Or you might want to look at "School Sleuth: The Case of an Excellent School," the program we did for PBS last year (it won a Peabody Award). That tongue-in-cheek film noir parody has me playing a beat-up detective hired by the beautiful blonde to find an excellent school. That's the comic frame, but within that is a pretty thoughtful exploration of what constitutes excellence. (more info on www.pbs.org/merrow)
End of commercial
Final authority: tough question, but it has to be whoever has authority over schools and standards. I have no problem with special needs students receiving alternative diplomas, if the alternative is not to assess their progress at all. Special needs programs must be held accountable, because when you don't, then no real teaching and learning take place. That in a nutshell is why we have accountability.
We actually have more accountability in education than we have in most other areas of public life!
Bedford, Va.:
Hi Mr. Merrow,
I am responding to the question from L.A. about anti-testing groups. I am the spokesperson for Parents Across Virginia United to Reform SOLs (www.SOLreform.com). We are a parent network of over 5500 across our state. Let's be clear, though,we are not "anti-testing." Good tests, used well, can help to support good education. Over-reliance on tests, though, produces well-documented negative consequences. We are living the negative consequences in Virginia. I would encourage folks to become standardized test literate.
John Merrow: Let's repeat that statement: "good tests, well used, can help to support good education." AMEN.
But let's also insist that the results be made available to teachers right away. That ought to be a pre-condition to giving a test. Kind of like an environmental impact statement before you dig or build. You can't give the test unless the results will be available within (pick time here) days.
That would change things.....probably save a lot of $$ too
Washington, D.C.:
Dear Mr. Merrow:
Would it not be more helpful for viewers to hear from you directly that you are opposed to testing? Someone knowlegable about the controversies around testing who listened carefully to your narrative could pick up your POV, but the viewer not steeped in the testing wars could easily have been fooled, thinking you came to the issue without bias.
John Merrow: I am not opposed to testing. Is that direct enough for you?
I am, however, opposed to too much testing, which is what we have in the USA now.
A lot of the tests kids take are given to assess the health of the system, not to benefit individual kids. There is no reason on earth to give that sort of test to all kids. Pollsters know very well how to assess--accurately--the public's views by SAMPLING. They will 'test' a few thousand people and report accurately about the general population. They do that because it's CHEAP, EASY and ACCURATE.
Education could do that and save MILLIONS of dollars.
Am I biased? I think I bring a lot of background knowledge to this issue after 26 years of reporting, teaching at three different levels, and a doctorate in education and social policy from Harvard.
Thomas Griffith, a Time editor for many years, wrote "The relationship between a journalist's beliefs and his reporting is something like that of a juror's desire to reach an impartial verdict. Jurors are not required to be empty minds, free of past experience or views; what is properly demanded of them is a readiness to put prejudices and uncorroborated impressions aside in considering the evidence before them. As much is asked of the journalist."
That's how I try to approach my work.
Richmond, Va.:
If the percentage of students able to pass a test in algebra climbs from 46 percent to 74 percent, doesn't that suggest that more students are learning algebra?
John Merrow: Yes, on its face.
Would you like more evidence? Some teacher-made tests, some demonstrations?
John Merrow: Everyone might want to look at the Frontline website at www.pbs.org/frontline. Lots of great material there.
San Francisco, Calif.:
In Tennessee, citizens get to find out how effectively schools advance the children who walk in the door on the first day of school. This "gain score" measures the value added by teachers in the course of a year. This method makes far greater sense than other methods of measuring adequate yearly progress. Why do you think Tennessee's system has not caught on?
Steve Rees
John Merrow: GREAT POINT. Tennessee is the leader in what's called 'value added' measurement, thanks largely to Bill Sanders and his crew (now at SAS in Raleigh, NC).
I think it will catch on, is catching on.
By the way, that method allows one to ask the question: "How important is a teacher's training? Does it matter if a teacher has gone to a school of education or not?" That study is going on now...and a lot of people are anxiously awaiting the answer
Manassas, Va.:
What interventions are in place in successful schools that could be implemented in other failing schools?
John Merrow: That is exactly the question that policymakers ought to be asking. Too often we say 'oh, it takes a dynamic leader,' when we ought to be finding out what that leader DOES.
I addressed this earlier, so I won't repeat myself.
But I would opt for some structural changes: an end to seniority so that schools could become purposeful units. In return for giving up seniority, teachers would have a say in hiring at the school level, so that eventually all the teachers in a particular school would be there because they WANTED to be, for educational reasons. That is, teachers need CHOICE too!
If a system knows where it's going (ie, it has clear standards), then schools ought to be able to design their own paths to those clear ends. Then give parents choice.
Use reliable, valid, standardized measures to figure out whether each school is making it. Let parents know the results, so they can chooose to stay or move.
Hudson, N.Y.:
I was surprized to find the president of IBM commenting on education in the show. I think I see public education being influenced by commercial concerns when I thought public education was to create an educated, knowing, public. Is education now to produce workers and standardized education to produce standardized workers?
John Merrow: While I have some disagreements with Lou Gerstner of IBM (see my book, Choosing Excellence), he has taken the lead in education reform. He began this when he was at American Express and has stayed the course.
I think his arguement about the need for clear standards is right on target. And from what I know of him, he is not looking for robotic workers but for citizens who will participate in public life. He strikes me as a small-d democrat and a supporter of public education.
There are a lot of people out there who say they support public schools but work to undermine them, but Gerstner isn't one of them.
Fairfax, Va.:
What do we do for the kids that dont pass/meet the benchmark? Are they thrown to the wayside? What do we do about the students who drop out for fear of not passing the test?
John Merrow: We send them to summer school, where they fail again. Then they drop out.
A lot of this approach does turn out to be a kind of 'gotcha' game, and that has to change.
I've just finished a piece for USA Today on this, contrasting what happens when you stop and ask a stranger for direction with what happens in classrooms. If I don't grasp your directions, you try to find a new way to explain it (because you--as my 'teacher'--want to be successful in helping me get where I want to go.)
But in classrooms, many teachers operate on a "I taught it but they didn't learn it" philosophy. So instead of finding a new way to teach the material, they repeat what they just said, only louder. End up shouting.
In real life, I would drive away. In school, the kids drop out.
What we need is a "No more shouting" approach.
That piece will be on the OpEd page next week (maybe I shouldn't be saying this on the Washington Post's dime. Sorry)
Manassas, Va.:
Although impossible to control, when is ANYONE going to address accountability in the home -- at least mention it? (As opposed to always holding accountability in the schools.)
John Merrow: Lots of schools have 'contracts' with parents. I think it works, but there are some pre-conditions. The parents have to have some choice in where the kids are going to school, for openers.
Check out the KIPP schools, the Edison model, most private schools. I'm sure there are others.
But 'accountability' is a complex concept. You make it sound like a 'gotcha' concept, because I think you are looking for someone else to blame. That ain't gonna work, friend.
You have to begin with a premise that all kids can learn and that the system's job is to enable.
San Jose, Calif.:
Not once did I hear the phrase "critical
thinking" mentioned.
As a parent, what's most important is that
my children learn to love to learn.
The measurement should not be a
high-stakes test, but the how successful
a school's students are in the real world.
But then who's got time to measure that?
John Merrow: Agreed....
Who has the time? You do. And you clearly are. If it's being undermined, then you have to act.
(the 'you' has just become general, not specific)
Pressure works. Look at the effect that Dr. Richard Atkinson of the UC University system is having on the SAT.
Sacramento, Calif.:
Our elementary school puts kids into groups of four with their desks facing each other. The teachers tell me that it is condusive to learning, but the kids tell me it is more distracting than helpful. Why do they do this or why should they not do this?
John Merrow: This sounds like 'cooperative learning,' which if done right is a great idea. I've seen it work well: the teacher presents the material to all, gives problems to be solved by the group. Each group tries to solve the problem, sharing ideas and solutions. Only when everyone in the group is stimied can they ask for the teacher's help.
Some tests are done that way as well, but individuals are tested too. Some of the grade can be on how well a kid works in the group, but most of it reflects the individual's mastery.
It's not easy, and teachers need to be trained to do this.
Los Angeles, Calif.:
Mr. Merrow, I am an elementary school teacher in the LAUSD. Your program confirmed many of my long-time concerns and complaints. For a
recent credential class, I did my final essay on the connection between the business community and curriculum, both historically
and presently. A large percentage of school board members have never been schoolteachers. I'd like to e-mail you a copy of my thesis,
if you'd be interested in reading it.
John Merrow: jmerrow@merrow.org
I look forward to reading it (but I am also going to be traveling for most of the next two months, so it may take me some time to respond)
Glendora, Calif.:
Thank you so much for airing information about our educational chaos. It is like a sea of helplessness in our profession. I am a teacher in California. Many of my students are limited English speakers, and their parents cannot help them progress any faster as they do not speak English either. The children do not lack intelligence, they
simply have not mastered their second language literacy skills.
The job is left to me, the teacher, to prepare lst graders to take a test they cannot read. I have had children literally throw up during tests. Their parents tell them they must do well. And the stress and
frustration makes the children ill. I don't have enough trash cans to accommodate this nauseating abuse.
I have a degree in early childhood education. These tests have no place in child development and enhancing the love of learning. And, furthermore, they do not enhance our love.
John Merrow: I hope a lot of people read your comments. We hurt kids when we reduce them to a number.
Did you see our documentary, "Lost in Translation," which aired on PBS two years ago? It about the language acquisition issue in California, and it looks at three approaches: bilingual education, immersion, and dual language.
(My children are bilingual thanks to their experience in elementary school in Washington DC, a dual language school)
Scottsdale, Ariz.:
On a standardized test such as the Stanford 9 what type of data do you feel is most valid; raw score, scaled score, percentile rank, stanine, normal curve equivalent, or grade equivalent.
John Merrow: What are you measuring? Kids or schools?
I tend to favor what are called 'criterion-referenced' tests, which basically measure performance against a standard. I want to know how near or far I am from reaching the standard, not how I compare to Charley or Alicia. Most important, however, is getting information that will be useful to my teachers as soon as possible.
Again, test scores DESCRIBE. They do not diagnose. That requires a skilled professional
Another plug for my book here: Choosing Excellence: 'Good Enough' Schools Are Not Good Enough.
Philadelphia, Pa.:
Mr. Merrow,
Apart from the last few minutes when that poor teacher couldn't take his class to the river, where was the discussion of what the real problem in education is -- the failure of schools and teachers to equip kids with the skills to think, problem-solve, and the ability to live in the real world. Where was the discussion of how testing can assess these kinds of higher-order skills with performance and
problem-based exams, rather than trying to decide which historical figures are worth memorizing?
John Merrow: I addressed this earlier.
You notice, however, that the program built toward that point about 'going to the river.' That was no accident, of course.
Los Angeles, Calif.:
Your comments have been a breath of fresh air to me. I love the idea of sampling. I'm amazed at how quickly people rush to polarize the issues. To test or not to test is NOT the question. My earlier comment requesting resources to voice concerns of overtesting was immediately translated by another participant as an "anti-testing" bias. And then the comment to you to come out and admit you don't like testing. We'll never get the perfect mix, but a little moderation would go a long way. Thanks for your time.
John Merrow: I am enjoying this immensely. The Washington Post person who is the brains behind this operation just told me that the level of questions is blowing her away, and I agree.
By the way, I did 13 radio interviews yesterday to promote this program. Three of them were call-in programs. About half of the radio interviewers, it seemed to me, had a pronounced tilt to the right. One or two were right of Ghengis Khan, as they say.
So this is a kick for me, and I thank you.
Durham, N.C.:
Mr. Merrow,
I have a few question of interest. I would like to watch this with my daughter. Will this program be scheduled again on PBS and when?
I recently began using an Internet service call "SchoolNotes.com." Being among the "working middle class" this type of program is priceless due to finacial restraints and daily time factors. This online service enhanced my ability to assist my child in various way, academically. However I've noticed that a small majority of schools and teachers participate in this program (estimated less than 20 percent of schools and teachers). This program allows a parent to have access to their child's daily progress which includes homework, behavior and grades.
Questions: As parents/guardians, how can we encourage Educators to utilize this system more effectively? Secondly, can it be nationally requested or advertised that this service is available by the public library for all communities and people? Income is not the main factor for a program like this, effort and communication will determine its success!
washingtonpost.com:
FYI: The Frontline Web site has a feature that allows you to plug in your ZIP code and find out when your local PBS station is airing or re-airing programs.
John Merrow: On the Frontline website you can find out about repeat broadcasts (www.pbs.org/frontline). And you can ask your PBS station to repeat it.
And if I can plug my book, Choosing Excellence, you certainly can plug SchoolNotes.com, which I have not heard of but will look into.
Killeen, Tex.:
I enjoyed your report on testing students for measuring the quality of education at schools. In Texas, they do teach to the TAAS test. However, I feel that the TAAS test is over emphasized and it should be one indicator on how well a student has done in school.
This year Congress is scheduled to reauthorize the IDEA Law. There seems to be a real divergence on what the two parties want to reform. The Republicans want reforms in eligibility and accountability. The Democrats want the Federal Government to fully fund its commitment to special education. The biggest problem my daughter Leesa faces in her special education classroom is her teachers are poorly trained and ill prepared to face the challenges she brings to the classroom.
As a parent, I am very nervous of what reforms the Republicans want to make. However, I feel the training of teachers for meeting the educational needs of students with disabilities is a serious national problem that needs immediate government action.
Are you planning to do a report on the debate about Idea Law that will rage in Washington?
Bob Carpenter
John Merrow: I'm overcommitted now, with work for the Newshour, two more Frontline programs, and an upcoming documentary on early childhood education here and in France.
It is an important issue. But don't hold your breath waiting for the Feds to fully fund special education. That's not going to happen.
We produced a documentary, "What's So Special about Special Education?" a few years ago. I began my career (with NPR) covering The Education of All Handicapped Children Act of 1975, so I care about that legislation.
(And there's a chapter in my book......)
Dallas, Tex.:
Why do we not let politicians deal with politics and let the leading educators deal with education? Assessment not testing should be ongoing and not some business but more like a living portfolio of growth and learning!
After teaching for 11 years in Missouri, I recently moved to Dallas, Tex. Texas and the Dallas Independent School District quite possibly tests more than any other state. Standaradized testing does not promote accountability but instead it is the death of education. After having taught in two blue ribbon schools where teachers are professional and hold themselves accountable for their kids learning both in assessment and teaching. Now, I find myself in a district where nothing matters but one week and one score. Teachers curse, come late, leave their classroom, physically abuse and cheat in order for a score on the TAAS test. This is not just my school but common in the DISD district. My dedication to my profession leaves me no choice but to try and save these kids from the teachers and administrators!
John Merrow: Education is too important to be left to educators alone, but we sure do need some educated politicians.
More power to you as you try to slow down the multiple-choice testing train.
See my earlier comments about pressures and cheating
East Lansing, Mich.:
Why is the high-stakes, high-stress level involvement students may encounter over countless standardized tests not replaced with another system that may give a broader and more accurate picture of a student's capabilities -- such as portfolios?
John Merrow: Time and money
(see my earlier comments. I'm getting hungry)
New Brunswick, N.J.:
The distinction that I hear being made about testing is whether it is used as a diagnostic tool or to grade students. Where there must be standards is in the use of the test as a diagnostic tool: How use of the test results makes teachers and administrators accountable for what is or, more importantly, is not taking place in the classrooms; and that corrective action is taken promptly as opposed to over the course of several generations of students. Does the federal law make this distinction as to the use of results of testing, and what standards does it set for implementing corrective action? From an active parent of two in an urban New Jersey school distict.
John Merrow: The new federal law is a bit silly. It says to states, 'test all the kids in grades 3-8 in math and reading, but YOU decide what test to use, and YOU tell us whether the results are satisfactory.'
Imagine if the DMV said to those applying for licenses: 'You go test yourself on driving and let us know if you passed, and we'll issue you a license.'
Doh....
Las Vegas, Nev.:
It takes much more than a test score to make a successful human being not only economically, but more importantly, in life -- i.e., integrity, compasion, drive, creativity, and hope. All are qualities that defy such quanitification.
John Merrow: Amen.....
Las Vegas, Nev.:
Human beings are complex products of biology, culture, experience, socio-economic factors, etc. How do proponents of testing plan to address such factors, especially when they make the playing field extremely uneven? Without appropriate funding and attention in these areas, how can the "short-comings" reflected in testing be overcome?
John Merrow: They don't.....because we haven't had the important national debate about the purposes of education and the differences between education and schooling. The goal of schooling is to help (in Jacques Barzun's phrase) "build a self," then it can't be vocational or narrow.
Accountability systems ought to be designed to help students get there, not to trip them up or to assign blame for their failure to arrive at their destination.
We have a ways to go...
John Merrow: Thanks to all of you for this interesting session. I'm flattered to be asked all these questions, and I'm heartened by their thoughtfulness. Perhaps you are Exhibit A in the case for education. Certainly you are strong evidence of our species's curiosity and tenacity.
John Merrow
washingtonpost.com:
That wraps up today's show. Thanks to everyone who joined the
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