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National Geographic:
Central Asia Unveiled
With Mike Edwards
Assistant Editor, National Geographic
Friday, Feb. 8, 2001; 11 a.m. EST

Prior to 1991, maps of Central Asia showed only two "stans" -- Pakistan and Afghanistan. After the breakup of the Soviet Union, five new independent stans were born: Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikstan and Turkmenistan.

With Afghanistan in turmoil, the world has turned a curious eye on these enigmatic countries, especially the formerly Soviet territories that were hidden from public view for many years. National Geographic magazine's February 2002 issue lifts the veil on these countries now caught in the glare of current events.

National Geographic magazine Assistant Editor Mike Edwards, author of the article, "Central Asia Unveiled," was online Friday, Feb. 8 at 11 a.m. EST, to discuss the article and the regions surrounding Afghanistan.

Edwards has worked at National Geographic for 33 years and written some 50 articles for the magazine. He lived in Kabul from 1966 to 1967, where he served as deputy director of the Peace Corps Program in Afghanistan. Since then he has traveled to Asia about 20 times on assignment. Among Edwards' most recent articles for National Geographic magazine was a three-part series on Marco Polo, for which Edwards traveled 6,000 miles across Asia, retracing Marco Polo's route.

The transcript follows.

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Silver Spring, Md.: After reading the article, "Central Asia Unveiled" I feel more informed and educated about the culture. How did you decide on the maps, the facts-at-a-glance format, and which Stans were the neediest, most traditional, most volatile, weakest, most despotic and etc. Will there be more installments to keep Americans informed?

Mike Edwards: The format that we chose -- the maps and the various statistics -- we felt that this was the quickest way to put a lot of information on Central Asia in front of our readers. And, as to where we collected, some was persnoal experience, some experts, people who follow Central Asia, Soviet experts and there's a great deal of information now on the Internet about the countries also.

I think probably we're going to -- in the coming months -- I think there will be stories in the Geographic on these countries.

Washington, D.C.: Is the Taliban a major presence in any other Central Asian country other than Afghanistan?

Mike Edwards: THe Taliban itself is not a major presence, but there are many sympathizers in Pakistan and a small very conservative religious guerilla movement operating in Uzbekistan. That group seems to have been closely allied with the Taliban.

Dallas, Tex.: What is the most dramatic change in the region other than war?

Mike Edwards: The most dramatic would be that five of these "stans" are now independent of the Soviet Union. Other than the current situation.

Washington, D.C.: Do you think things would be different in Afghanistan today if the United States had not supported the Taliban against Russia?

Mike Edwards: No, its not correct to say the U.S. supported the Taliban. The U.S. supported a lot of Afghan guerrilla groups, but there wasn't one called Taliban at that time. The Taliban came along later. It is true that many people in the Taliban regime were guerrilla fighters supported by the U.S., but were part of guerrilla groups.

Camp Springs, Md.: Are there any promising leaders emerging in Central Asia, or are the countries led mainly by military dictatorships?

Mike Edwards: No, its not true to say 'military' dictatorships, but most are led by what we might call strong men who are virtually dictators. There have been elections in Kazakstan and Uzbekistan, but these people tend to be in the old Soviet mold of being very authoritarian rulers. It is almost one-man rule in all of the ex-Soviet stans. There is only one military dictator, Musharraf.

Many people say that although he is a military dictator, he's the best leader Pakistan has had in many years.

Cleveland Park, Washington, D.C. : How does ethnicity inform the relationship between Iran and Afghanistan? I appreciate that this is a complex question, but I am mainly curious as to whether the Iran-Taliban enmity was an ethnic issue that would extend to the current government in Kabul, or if it derived more from specific incidents like the massacres in Mazar.

Mike Edwards: By and large, the people of Iran and a great number of the Afghans are of Persian extraction so they're almost blood brothers. But, religion is different. Iran is a Shia state and most of the people in Afghanistan are Sunni. There is bad feeling about the massacre of a number of Iranian diplomats in Mazar several years ago.

The big problem for Afghanistan in relation to its neighbors is it has neighbors who would like to dominate it -- Pakistan and Iran particularly.

Part of this has to do with the strategic location. If someday there is an oil pipeline that passes through the region it has to go through Afghanistan. That gives it a great deal of importance for its neighbors.

Silver Spring, Md.: Which country in Central Asia has the best chance of developing a stable government and economy?

Mike Edwards: Well, probably Kazakstan. Because it has so much petroleum. It's going to be rich. The problem there is a government that is not very democratic, but it is not as harsh as other governments in the stans, so it probably has the best chance for stability and being rich.

Wailea, Hawaii: What is National Geographic's role in situations where newspapers, news magazines and television can get the breaking news to people faster than a monthly publication can?

Mike Edwards: We're not going to beat newspapers at getting the news to people. Our role is backgrounding the news, explaining places and helping people understand why wars happen.

Miami, Fla.: Is the religion of the region completely Islamic? Do some countries have more fundamentalist Muslims than others?

Mike Edwards: There's a large difference throughout the stans in terms of the influence that Islam has. Islamic influence is great in Pakistan, Afghanistan, but less so in the former Soviet stans. During the Soviet era, all religion was supressed -- especially Islam -- by the Soviet regime. So it's just beginning to really come back in a strong way.

Also, the Russian Orthodox church is still very important in the former Soviet territories. Many ethnic Central Asians are devoted to that church rather than Islam.

Washington, D.C.: Can you comment on why Turkmenistan seems to keep itself aloof from regional politics? It did not join the "Shanghai Cooperative" with Russia, China and the other "stans," and it has been relatively uninvolved in the current war despite sharing a border with Afghanistan. I believe it is part of current negotiations on the maritime borders of the Caspian Sea, but beyond that, one does not hear much about Turkmenistan's relations with its neighbors. Why is that?

Mike Edwards: Turkmenistan is a one-man government. There is only one voice in that country in determining what the relationship will be with its neighbors and a lot of people would say that there's been a tendency in the goverment to go it alone. It's not interested in its neighbors at all. With one exception:

It has huge deposits of natural gas and will need to be able to transport them by pipelines through its neighbors. And for that reason I think Turkmenistan has been careful to stay out of the conflicts as much as possible.

There's one other aspect. That is that Russia has not wanted Turkmenistan to develop a system to sell its gas in Europe and Russia has effectively blocked them from developing those pipelines to transport to Europe. Russia wants that market for itself.

Lisbon, Portugal: What main problems do you see forecaming to these countries when they begin facing the "joys, difficulties, solutions and problems" of a "western capitalized world?"

Mike Edwards: I see two problems immediately. One is the lack of tradition of elected democratic govt. The Central Asian way is rule by one man or one family. For example in Afghanistan the ruling family had power for 200 years. Same with the Kazhaks and Uzbeks.

The second problem, and one western businessmen complain about, is the lack of transparency and honesty in business. Businessmen say that bribes and kickbacks are demanded and frequently by government people and businesses in the stans. I don't know whether that's going to change anytime soon or not. There are a number of Western businesses that would like to become established in the Stans.

Alexandria, Va.: My mother visited some of the stans just after the fall of the USSR. She said that the madrassas were just getting started then. Are Saudi-funded madrassas teaching people jihad and hatred in any of the stans?

Mike Edwards: After the fall of the USSR, the Saudis were very active in sending money to rebuild mosques and religious schools. To train imams and teachers. There has been a little bit of suspicion that the Saudis were bringing in a conservative brand of Islam, but I've not heard anyone say they brought anti-American sentiments or feelings with them.

Alexandria, Va.: Turkey and some of the stans have friendly diplomatic relations with Israel. Are Turkic-speaking Moslems less likely to be believe in violent jihad than are Arab or Pakistani Moslems?

Mike Edwards: I don't know that it has to do with what language one speaks , but how strongly you feel about Islam. Feelings in Pakistan are very well developed as regards Israel. They are not nearly so intense in the ex-Soviet areas. Again, because Islam is just not as strong there.

Falls Church, Va.: Will there be any futher installments about changes seen in the "stans?" Americans need to know what is going on, and thanks to the National Geographic Magazine there is comprehensive information which facilitates clear understanding. The maps, photographs, and text give relevance and a sense of place. Thanks for keeping us informed. I'm a person with a busy schedule, I only read what is related to my life and after Sept. 11, this is so relevant to basic survival.

Mike Edwards: Thanks very much. You make us feel like we're doing our job when we get a comment like that.

Arlington, Va.: Do you know if there are any plans to include aid to the other Central Asian countries in the U.S. aid to Afghanistan?

Mike Edwards: Well, we've made some promises to Pakistan -- quite a number -- of assistance of one kind or another. Cash or opening up more markets in the U.S. for textiles.

I don't know of any commitments to other countries in Central Asia. There've been aid programs in all of the ex-Soviet stans.

Chicago, Ill.: One conclusion that can be drawn from the National Geographic article is that some of these Stans have no business existing as fully independent, sovereign nations. They just don't have the capability. Do you forsee any shifts in borders down the road or am I just totally off base here? Thanks.

Mike Edwards: Kirgistan and Tajikistan both look to economists like new countries that are going to have a hard time surviving. They don't have the big natural gas deposits. I think it is possible in the future that there would be some changes in borders. The way the Soviet Union drew the borders, they divided a lot of peoples. There are Kazaks that live in Kirgistan, Uzbeks in Tajikistan. The borders are like pieces in a puzzle and sometime down the road, I think there will be adjustments. Peaceful, I don't know. But they will let people be reunited.

Eau Claire, Wis.: I very much enjoyed your article about the "stans" in National Geographic. My wife and I were Peace Corps volunteers in Jalalabad in 1968-69.

I am confused by the term "Turkic." Is this a linguistic term that describes people who speak a language closely related to the language of Turkey? It seems odd to describe the decendents of oriental-featured Mongolian tribes as "Turkic" since the people of Turkey are not of that ethnic stock.

Could you explain? Thanks.

Mike Edwards: First let me say that Jalalabad was a lovely place in the 1960s. I spent a lot of time there in 66-67 in the Peace Corps. There was a large peace corps program at the medical school. I hope you have the same fond memories.

The term Turkic is used for a great number of Central Asian people. And there is a language commonality in these areas, but -- One thing about Central Asia to keep in mind is that peoples have moved around there for centuries: the Mongols from Mongolia, Turkey's people came from Mongolia. A lot of mixing of ethnic groups over the centuries (over the last 1,000 years or so).

Wahington, D.C.: Does Russia make money from the oil in Kazakhstan than the Kazakhs do?

Mike Edwards: Russia does have an interest in the petroleum there and in the pipelines and will make a lot of money from transporting oil from there.

It is also true that Russia sells some petroleum to Kazakhstan. IT's petroleum is in the western part of the country. The eastern part is connected to Russia by pipelines, but not western Kazakhstan.

Jackson, Wy.: Local "Warlords" have ruled theses areas for thousands of years. What makes us feel like we are going to have better luck controling this area now? There local governments have not. (Ask Iran)

Mike Edwards: In terms of Afghanistan.

We didn't used to call them "warlords," we called them "local leaders."

For as long as there's been a government in Kabul that claims to rule Afghanistan, there are local potentates with tremendous power. The difference was, in past years, these local rulers payed tribute to Kabul. That system has broken down completely. You have people in Kandahar and other cities trying to grab power and they don't feel any loyalty to the temporary regime in Kabul.

Another aspect to this is that there is almost no way of making money in Afghanistan today, except for agriculture. Which has been crippled by the drought and landmines. So there are thousands of men that have nothing better to do than be a soldier and make a few dollars a month.

They need to establish industry and public works projects. As for industry, lots could be done with agriculture, food processing, canning. Opium is also more profitable than wheat and that says a lot as far as Afghanistan goes.

Baltimore, Md.: What do you think the probability is that terrorism has been completely eliminated from Afghanistan? You still hear in news reports that there are many terrorists cells still operating there and all over the world. How vast a network is it?

Mike Edwards: I'm not sure I can answer that, except to say, first you have to remember Afghanistan is a very large country and in the mountainous areas its very possible to see pockets of taliban and al Qaeda fighters that have not been chased out. It could be months or years before Afghanistan is really free from terrorists.

Washington, D.C.: After living as a Peace Corps volunteer in Kazakhstan, I was surprised to witness the relatively silent nature of the peoples of Central Asia. Any type of demonstration or outcry against the government swiftly gets crushed and dispursed. As you know, this is the situation in all of Central Asia. To what extent to you think that the US should support these semi-authoritarian leaders in the war against terrorism? Nazarbaev and Karimov are clearly using this new flexibility to their advantage by requiring national ID cards, and search and seizures which were already common, are now even more so. Do you believe that the leaders of Central Asia are more concerned about their power being usurped rather than fighting for a greater cause?

Mike Edwards: I think that politicians in Central Asia are practical, just like those here, who will protect their power as much as they can. The U.S. is supporting some questionable rulers in Central Asia and that's because they either have petroleum or are located in a region where we want influence.

We now have military personnel in Uzbekistan and Kirgistan and our government expects them to be there longterm, and so we'll be nice to these rulers.

It's very encouraging to me that the annual State Dept human rights reports on Central Asia document a great number of instances of human rights abuses by Uzbekistan, for example, and that says to me that we haven't gone completely overboard in supporting these countries.

Cleveland Park, D.C.: Is Tajikistan the only member of the CIS that still hosts Russian troops? And is this solely the legacy of their recent civil war, or is there some other reason that they are more accomodating to their former parent country than the other "stans?"

Mike Edwards: I believe it is the only one with RUssian troops today. There has always been the question as to why they're there. To keep Taliban militants from coming north? Or are they there to keep peace? Or are they there because Russia wants influence? My guess is its a mix of all three. THis is not the only place where russia has troops in former territories. There are Russian troops in Georgia.

Paris, France: What do you forsee as the future of the women and children in Afghanistan in terms of work, education and overall stability? Do you feel significant aid from outside sources and humanitarian organizations will assist in resolving some of the key issues facing the populations in that region?

Mike Edwards: I think women will gradually get back to a more liberated status. When I lived in Kabul in the 60s, women were going to university, being elected to parliament, driving and working in government offices. It will be quite a few years before women get back to that point, but that's related to the second part.

In my mind, one of the many great needs is rebuilding the school system and the university. There can't be any bright future for women in Afghanistan until there's a working school system. It wasn't great in the 1960s, but that has to be job one as far as foreign help for the country.

Takoma Park, Md.: InKapucinski's (sp) "Imperium" he writes about the water situation in Central Asia. In one part in particular, he was saying how the Soviets totally upset the delicate balance of life there when they insisted that their republics plant cotton and that residents plough under their gardens and other fields. Although he was not writing about Afghanistan (I believe it was Khazakstan), I was wondering if you can give an update on the situation vis a vis water there?

Mike Edwards: THe situation with water is in all the stans -- there's never enough. This is basically desert and water for agriculture is mostly runoff from the mountains. The Soviets made Central Asia into a huge cotton field and almost dried up the rivers and in the process poisoned a lot of land with pesticides and other chemicals. It's a very serious problem and probably is going to limit the growth in Uzbekistan -- particularly in the coming years. Because Uzbekistan is still a major cotton producer and there's only so much water and so much land that can be used today.

Greensboro, N.C.: Would you recommend visiting any of the "stans?" The countries seem like they would be beautiful. Is my perception correct? What kind of tourist facilities are there?

Mike Edwards: I guess it's a little premature to visit Afghanistan.

To me, from a tourist standpoint, Uzbekistan is wonderful. The old cities still have gorgeous architecture -- palaces and monuments. Those cities are well worth visiting and quite a few people do pass through on the silk road. Tourist facilities are not too bad. There are some nice hotels, good food. I've never been sick in those countries and I can't say that for everywhere that I've been.

Mike Edwards: The other country that is really fascinating is Kirgistan. It has gorgeous mountains and a wonderful place for trekking. It's very traditional still, the rural areas are a lot like Afghanistan was years ago. People are shepherds and semi-nomadic. It doesn't have well developed tourist facilities, but will in the future.

Boca Raton, Fla.: Are all the "stans" as ethnically diverse as Afghanistan? Do you find the same kind of deep tribal loyalties?

Mike Edwards: Afghanistan has four major population groups and some several smaller groups. That's probably also true in Uzbekistan and Tajikistan where people are rather mixed up with them living in separate communities in the same countries. So, I don't know that there's a lot of difference in the ehtnic situation.

washingtonpost.com:

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