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The Clash
With Joel Achenbach
Washington Post Staff Writer
Tuesday, Dec. 18, 2001; 1 p.m. EST
The events of Sept. 11 left everyone reeling, searching for explanations and struggling to make sense of what happened. Now that we're engaged in this "war on terrorism" what does that mean? Does it suggest a short-term battle to fight terror networks, or does it signify a larger war between Islam and the West?
Joel Achenbach explored the factions at odds in "The Clash," in the Washington Post Magazine Dec. 16: theorist Francis Fukuyama's "End of History," or Harvard Prof. Samuel P. Huntington's "Clash of Civilizations." Achenbach was online to talk about the theories, the thinkers and what Sept. 11 could mean on Tuesday, Dec. 18.
The transcript follows.
Achenbach's column, Rough Draft, appears online a couple of times a week.
Editor's Note: Washingtonpost.com moderators retain editorial control
over Live Online discussions and choose the most relevant questions for guests and hosts; guests and hosts can decline to answer questions.
Joel Achenbach: I'm sorry, I'm reading the Weingarten transcript...hang on...
Joel Achenbach: The truth is, Weingarten DOESN'T know who Lesley Stahl is. He's that out of it.
OK, I assume everyone who is participating today wants to ask intelligent questions about my Sunday article on the Clash of Civilizations. This article took a long time to prepare and explains essentially everything there is to know about the world today. It's not necessarily an article you read in one sitting. You might just read a few paragraphs, then go off and ponder what you've read, then come back and read a few more, then put the article aside and go watch some football, then come back to the article and dress it in a funny little costume, then pretend that the article is a friend and tell it personal things about yourself, then creep up on the article and scare it, then read another few graphs, then finally scissor the article into strips and burn it in ashtray and scatter the ashes over your hard and scream "I DEMAND A RETRACTION." It's that kind of piece.
Joel Achenbach: Let me just say, before we get rolling, that I should have had the decaf. Also let me just say that I assume everyone here has read my most recent column, the subject of which I cannot recall. It may have been about the war. It may have been another one of my courageous anti-Osama pieces. You know me: Unflinching. Willing to take Osama down a peg.
washingtonpost.com:
Here's the Magazine article: The Clash (Dec. 16)
Joel Achenbach: My gosh there are so many questions already in the queu. Lisa, send me some more blanks so I can continue to ignore these questions piling up. Let me say something about Weingarten: It's pretty incredible that he was able to produce that verse on the spot. Imagine if he put his talent to USE.
washingtonpost.com:
And the most recent Rough Draft: There's Incriminating Evidence -- and Then There's This... (Dec. 14, 2001)
washingtonpost.com:
Blankety blank blank. -- Lisa.
I.T.B.:
After reading your piece about Huntington and Fukuyama, I found myself wondering what some of the other deep thinkers who you've written about over the years would say about the whole post-Sept. 11 climate. The most interesting to me would be Julian Simon, that University of Maryland professor who figured we probably weren't living in interesting times; a piece by you about him was in one of your Why Things Are books. Unfortunately, he's been deceased for a few years now. Who else from your past might you like to talk to about Sept. 11?
Joel Achenbach: Simon's particular expertise was in economics and he managed to persuade many people that, over time, resources would become less expensive, not more expensive, even though they were supposedly non-renewable resources. he had that famous bet with Paul Ehrlich, and he won it -- the price of copper, tungsten, etc., went down after 10 years, not up -- though Ehrlich argued that Simon was like a guy falling out of a building who, half-way down, said see, nothing bad had happened. (I may misremember exact retort.) But in any case I remember that Simon specifically limited his worldview to economic issues and did not necessarily think that one could argue that the world got "better" in the more spiritual sense. He didn't address politics much when we spoke.
Arlington, Va.:
No problem. We're all reading the Weingarten transcript, too.
Joel Achenbach: Maybe we should just take time out, all of us, to read weingarten's transcript, then reread his armpit of america piece. Of course I actually LIKE that part of Nevada. The Basin and Range area. Wide open spaces. Like being on another planet. Starry nights. Flying saucers. I'm with McPhee on this one.
Joel Achenbach: My goal today is to make a lot of obscure references that no one understands.
Boston, Mass.:
Fukuyama's theory is nice, but one nuclear bomb can still ruin your whole day. The world is getting smaller but the crazies are getting smarter and more dangerous. I'll have to vote for Huntington.
Joel Achenbach: A nuclear bomb wouldn't necessarily refute Fukuyama. He'd say it was a rearguard action. My own vague guess is that social networking and cooperation are hardwired into the species, along with various other urges and compulsions, including some dangerous ones, and that over time we'll see a constant back-and-forth between these two forces (globalization and violent resistance). In the grand scheme of things, the networking of the planet, the shrinkage of it, is THE major event of the past 500 years. (Ponderousness alert.)
State College, Pa.:
Why do you and your fellow opinionmeisters continue to ignore the work of Dr. Rudolph Ingalls Vogel? Dr. Vogel has explained the current situation as the natural outcome of a "E" section of the first "Q" wave of the current 1550-year climatic price cycle. To truly understand the modern world, you must read Vogel's book, "The Climatonomic Cycles: 4000 BC-3000 AD." I saw one of Vogel's lectures on local cable access and truly the scales fell from my eyes. I finally understood it all. I ran to my local Borders and picked up Vogel's work. I read it in one sitting -- 18 hours straight! You must read this!
Joel Achenbach: There is no such person, no such theory, and I'm never been totally convinced there's a place called State College, Pa.
Morgantown, W.Va.:
I want to be charitable toward Moslems, but that is difficult when they consistently refuse to oppose the fanatical, extremist elements that prosper within their own communities, both abroad and within our own country. Why are there so few Moslem voices raised against the militant Islamists in their midst?
Joel Achenbach: I've heard many such voices raised against terrorists in the Islamic world. (FYI our style here is Muslims, not Moslems.)The President of Pakistan isn't an insignificant figure. IRAN, of all places, has offered support for military operations in Afghanistan.
Alexandria, Va.:
"I actually LIKE that part of Nevada. The Basin and Range area. Wide open spaces. Like being on another planet. Starry nights. Flying saucers."
Word is the Battle Mountain Bugle needs an editor.
Joel Achenbach: Application's in the mail.
15th and L, Washington, D.C.:
I spent four years in State College, Pa., and believe it or not, the powers that be actually gave me a diploma. I guess that sort of proves the place exists, doesn't it?
Joel Achenbach: But shouldn't it have a normal name, like Newberry, Pa., or Hawthorne, Pa.
Washington, D.C.:
Joel,
I read your article in one sitting. I find the whole situation a bit overwhelming. I think my brain still thinks the whole situation is just another Hollywood movie. (Despite driving past the huge hole in the Pentagon on a regular basis.)
Anyway I read Weingarten in real time. But what's with the reference to your hair? Would they be happier if you dyed it pink and got a perm?
Joel Achenbach: Weingarten's hair is a national disgrace. Seriously his hair is a war crime.
Washington, D.C.:
I have two related problems with the "Clash" and "End" theories. Both seem to suggest that these trends are going to happen no matter what the people of the world decide to do, and thus, neither speak directly enough to the critical role of and mission for the U.S. in the world today.
This failure to explicitly articulate a new U.S. foreign policy paradigm to replace the retrograde "post-Cold War" term puts us at a disadvantage and leaves a major void in our message and mission. This void gives antagonists armed with today’s powerful information technology the opportunity to falsely characterize America’s international agenda, as your story reports some have done using the "Clash" theory.
At the end of World War II, President Truman’s said: "The American people are determined to work for PEACE on earth... What we envisage is a program of development based on the concepts of democratic FAIR dealing." In his inaugural address, President Bush also evoked the American ideals of "FAIR dealing" and the "balance of power that favors freedom."
What do you think of a new "Fair Peace" maxim for U.S. foreign policy to replace the improvident "post-Cold War" term, to put the latest limiting "war on terrorism" terminology in context, and to speak to America's role as the "End" and "Clash" theories do not?
Joel Achenbach: My hair is more of a misdemeanor.
Bethesda, Md.:
Joel, don't you think you're reading way too much into this? I see bin Laden and his ilk as the equivalents of Hitler, Stalin and so on. They want a specific way of life and they will kill anyone who doesn't agree with them.
I don't see them as anything more than sociopaths. I don't see them as signs that one of these theories or the other one is more correct.
And I don't buy the theories, anyway. They just seem so out there.
Joel Achenbach: The theories are generalizations and oversimplifications, but they're not WAY out there. Both have supporters, and even opponents stipulate that the theories have elements of truth. Huntington's central point was that culture had become the great catalyst of international conflict, and I think most people think that's true. There's no doubt that there's a cultural element to the current war -- even if, leading the charge, are some characters that look like Hitler to us. I agree (and wrote a column) that bin Laden is somewhat delusional and has caused great suffering as he acts out this theatrical role he's envisioned for himself. But there is a broader cultural resistance to westernization and modernization that I think includes many people who would renounce terrorism.
Annapolis, Md.:
Isn't this basically the argument between anthropology and sociology?
But, aside from simple answers, why does it have to be one or the other? Why can't it be culture and the "triumph" of capitalism? Perhaps it is actually the clash between capitalism and culturism. To acheive perfect Western capitalism, cultural aspects must be most eradicated, mitigated, or in some other way subjugated to a lower level than capitalism itself. The ideals of culturalism do not work in ideal capitalism.
Sorry for the postulating, I'm just stuck in a dead end Internet job, and articles like yours allow me to think outside of my cubicle for a bit. Do you have any other books you would recommend?
Joel Achenbach: Ben Barber's Jihad v. McWorld is good, many people like Tom Friedman's The Lexus and the Olive Tree (I fear I have only glanced at it), and Huntington's book is quite readable as academic tomes go. I've got one here that looks interesting, Mullahs on the Mainframe. Sorry about the dead end gig -- hope you find an escape.
Bethesda, Md.:
Like the poster from West Virginia, I would like to view the Muslim world the way I view the Muslims I actually know, as normal people with reasonable views and beliefs. But this is difficult to reconcile with the fact that the majority of Muslim nations aren't democracies, don't afford basic rights to all their citizens (women particularly, not as bad as the Taliban but certainly not like here or Europe), those sorts of things.
Joel Achenbach: China's not exactly a democracy either. In fact western-style democracy and freedoms are relatively rare in the world -- even, historically (going back a bit), in the WEST. Many of us grew up in a world where you didn't have civil rights if you were the wrong color or gender. Sorry to be so squishy about this, but I think this is an unfinished and evolving process ... does that make any sense.
Oakton, Va.:
It's about time somebody writes about The Clash. "Combat Rock" was outstanding.
Joel Achenbach: bingo
Peaks Island, Maine:
Maybe this questions didn't post the first time, if you've gotten it before ignor this!Have you read Robert Wright's "The Moral Animal" -- evolutionary psychology -- where he makes evolutionary, Darwinian reasons that would seem to make the theory of Clashing Cultures less likely. Cooperation over the long haul seems to work, evolutionarily speaking, better than competition. But, can this leave us leaning toward the "End of History?" Isn't that just an attention getting title with no real meaning to it at all, unless history ended long ago.
Joel Achenbach: His other book that directly addresses this is NonZero, and in my piece I did refer to Robert Wright's work. He makes the case that game theory, specifically the prisoner's dilemma (as it is called), explains why cooperation tends to beat out selfish behavior over time. Those who cooperate tend to get more of the goodies, on average...
Re: Morgantown's approach to Islam:
So few voices are raised in the Muslim world against the militants in their midst (few and far between, I might add) because, like the rest of the world, they tend to ignore crazy people. Kinda like the Christian world not rising up and giving the right wing extremist religious fanatics in OUR midst a chance to explain themselves to the divine creator in person.
Joel Achenbach: good point
Cambridge, Mass.:
I am currently the president of a major American university. I was formerly a senior cabinet official in a previous administration. And I can tell you, no one has had more influence on my thinking than Rudolph Ingalls Vogel. Read him and believe it!
Joel Achenbach: I am actually working on my own translation of his work, into Slovenian.
NW Washington, D.C.:
You're right about the name of State College. That would be like calling D.C. "Federal Government, U.S.A."
Joel Achenbach: or Congressionally Approved Permanent Seat of Government, U.S.A.
Chicago, Ill., Confused about what section is "W27":
Greetings,
Good to have you back in the chat mode.
Probably my judgment is clouded by the PBS series on the nature of clans in current conflicts. Given that the Pushtuns are giving the "All Go Home Free" to the top leaders that are being overrun by the Northern Alliance, doesn't that make the historic inevitability of democracy/capitalism seem a little shaky?
Joel Achenbach: Didn't see that PBS series.
I think you can always find specific incidents (like 9/11) that seem to bolster the Clash hypothesis. The question is, what's the world going to look like in 2101 A.D.?
Tokyo, Japan:
Prof. Huntington,
Isn't true that civilizational issues in international affairs are relevant only when they affect the degree of trust between two nation-states and that economic as well as political power are other primary variables that can overwhelm such issues? Perhaps, they even make such issues irrelevant?
Brian W. Walker
Joel Achenbach: (I take it Mr. Walker is from the "realist" school...)
Washington, D.C.:
I didn't exactly see anybody clamoring for the Methodists to explain Tim McVeigh.
Joel Achenbach: right
I.T.B.:
Also, y'read Neal Stephenson's essay "In the Beginning was the Command Line" yet? Some of Stephenson's hyper-intellectual chin-stroking on the subject of computer interfaces has become more interesting to me since Sept. 11. Stephenson goes off on this endless tangent about the process of Disneyfication and how maybe putting a nice happy little sheen on everything is the only way for a society to get down to the business of being peaceful, while cultures with endless histories -- he gives Islam and France as examples -- turn up their noses in disgust, and ancient cultural gripes never just dry up and go away. This wacky bit of fun is at http://www.cryptonomicon.com/beginning.html washingtonpost.com:
Vetted this URL. It's not a porn site. And couldn't you make the argument that any culture that finds Jerry Lewis funny ... well, never mind. -- Lisa.
Joel Achenbach: I know I'm panting in anticipation of reading about computer interfaces...
Arlington, Va.:
Mr. Achenbach,
I want to compliment you on an excellent article. In troubling times like these, it's easy to see how neatly packaged general theories can have their appeal as people try to get their arms around some very weighty issues.
President Bush (and others) maintain that the current "war on terrorism" is not a "war on Islam." Huntington claims that a war between the West and Islam has been happening for the past twenty years. Do you think those who make the "terrorism, not Islam" claim actually believe Huntington's view, and are only making the claim in order to keep as much of the Islamic world on the sidelines as possible?
Joel Achenbach: I think Bush, Powell, Rice, et al are aware that the worst case scenario is a Huntingtonesque clash, and thus in order to minimize that possibility they hammer away at the notion that this is not a war against Islam. And it's not! The war has been extremely targeted so far, to the point that conservatives have been unhappy with the narrowness of the strategy (they want to go after Iraq.)
Washington, D.C.:
Joel,
Haven't read the article yet, but will. Have there been any environmental determinist theories to explain the unrest in the Middle East? The largely inhospitable land in the Middle East has not allowed societies to move from clans/tribes to modern states -- only within very recent history. The strong ideals of community and the principles of Islam conflict with the modern state. Islam is rooted in clan/tribe society. As population increases greatly in this area of the world, the clan/tribe society will unlikely be usurped by the modern state. Therefore, we can only look forward to more doom and gloom. The end.
Joel Achenbach: Interesting theory. If I was still doing Why Things Are I might do an item on it (four paragraphs on why the Middle East has so many dadgum conflicts).
Washington, D.C.:
So you don't think much about my "Fair Peace" term? Is it at least better than Bush 41's "New World order" term? This term is most famous for becoming a name of a professional wrestling league?
The Cold War term was made up by a journalist. Can you give us a new name for this era? Don't you don't think it would help Americans understand what our role in the world is?
By the way, there is a State College, Pa. -- in Happy Valley, just below Mount "Nittany" (who was an native American princess).
Joel Achenbach: "Fair Peace" is what we say down south in G'ville when someone asks us how far it is to the sinkhole after you take a right on the Williston Road.
Sterling, Va.:
Joel, I am frustrated to see that the intoduction to this discussion refers to a possible "larger war between Islam and the West."
Why must the work of an extreme, borderline psychotic terrorist network represent the face of Islam? There are millions of devout Muslims who do not want a "war between Islam and the West" to occur. Millions of devout Muslims (such as the approximately 20,000 that attended the Eid celebrations at the Chantilly Expo center this past Sunday) who believe that Islam is not waging a war with the West. Millions of Muslim Afghanis who welcome the Western intervention in Afghanistan. Why is this misinformation still occuring? washingtonpost.com:
It was the premise of the story: "The Clash" (Post Magazine, Dec. 16, 2001)
Joel Achenbach: The only person who advocates a larger war between Islam and the West is Osama bin Laden. Sam Huntington WARNED that such a clash is possible. That's what my article was all about.
Fairfax, Va.:
Joel,
The Sunday article was of great interest. You noted that these guys are theorists, and that "detail" gets lost in theories. The thing that is the hardest for me to wrap my brain around is the fact (FACT!) that the Koran itself brands all non-believers as infidels, and that the cultural response to that, at least for the extremists, is therefore to view non-believers as less than human. Reports are that the plane hijackers' materials referred to the people that would be on the planes as "animals" who are of no consequence. This is a detail. How do people, whether or not they are perceived as "civilized" deal with a culture view that the death of the infidel -- as many and as often as possible -- is worth any number of martyrdoms"? There is something so antithetical to the very idea of democracy in hard-line theocracy -- no matter what the faith -- that even in America, it seems, we stand on the knife's edge much of the time.
That said, I guess I would have to say that, unless they are, in fact, willing to deal with the details as they exist, the theorists are incapable of propounding any theory that can have the slightest bit of relevance. And the fact that two of them have come up with diametrically opposed theories in the face of the facts, sort of makes the whole process questionable, doesn't it.
Joel Achenbach: Grossly generalized theories like Huntington's and Fukuyama's will always be vulnerable to contradiction through specific details. Huntington argued that, unless you have a general framework for looking at the world, all you have is a "bloomin, buzzin confusion." In the case of Fukuyama, his central point is that there is not any other system of government or economics that is going to supplant the one we have in the West or challenge it for global supremacy. Isn't that true? I think even the anti-globalization folks would admit (particularly after 9/11) that they are not seeking a wholesale overthrow of the capitalist system, but modification of it to make it less rapacious (sp?) and fairer to disadvantaged people etc...
Joel Achenbach: I cant imagine anyone is actually following this line of thought...even I am confused. Did anyone read the NASA story a week ago? We could talk about space.
Chicago, Ill.:
The reponses from you and the posters, to Morgantown's assessment of Islam, have really dodged the issue. I don't see what Tim McVeigh, Methodism, or "a few crazies" have to do with anything here. To compare reactions, consider Tom Friedman's analogy from a few weeks ago: what if 19 American Christians (Methodist or otherwise; who the hell cares), acting in the name of their faith, flew a plane full of Egyptians into one of the pyramids? Would Western leaders condemn the act IN SPITE OF strong domestic pressure to the contrary (see Musharraf)? Would there be all this "yes, but" stuff? No -- our culture would be falling over itself to apologize, to make amends, to do whatever was needed to smooth things over. That, however, is not happening in the instant situation, and I don't think my conclusion is simply the product of a lack of awareness or a narrow focus on a few extremists. Thanks.
Joel Achenbach: Yes, but...
Mt. Rainier, Md.:
I'm feeling a little simple-minded in this exalted company, but it seems that the "clash" proponents (especially between Islam and West) are ignoring the fact that Islamic populations are part of the West. That America and Europe both have sizeable, peaceful, middle-class Islamic populations that by-and-large value exactly what all middle-class people value -- stability, education, opportunity, freedom.
Joel Achenbach: There are something like 20 or 25 million Muslims living in "the West." The weakest part of Huntington's theory is the very concept of a "civilization." The West covers a lot of territory. I'm not sure Washington D.C. and South Carolina and California aren't three different civilizations right there.
washingtonpost.com:
Do you find it strange that now -- huge world events or not -- we send a crew up into space and it barely registers a ripple in the news? CNN carries the landing live, but that's it. People were in space, for Heaven's sake. It's not as easy as going to, say, Cleveland. -- Lisa.
Joel Achenbach: I was at the cape a few weeks ago and was amazed at how much technological virtuosity goes into launching people into space safely, and how we now take it entirely for granted and CNN only cuts to a launch a few seconds before liftoff. The analogue to this -- and let's see if I can yank the Clash of Civilizations back into this graph -- is that we also don't tend to notice things like satellite communication, jumbo jets, international emails, and all the various technologies that have shrunk the world and which are more powerful than any terrorist leader.
Morgantown, W.Va.:
I read your "Clash" article. I agree with those who recognize truth in both mens' positions. It's as if Fukuyama shows what the trend is or can be, and Huntington warns of the dangers that can destroy otherwise good progress. I think there may be some other general principles that need to be included -- such as, for example, the tendency of prosperous, comfortable societies to become soft and let down their guard against the violence that is still rampant in so much of the world.
Joel Achenbach: The lesson of this year is that we shouldn't be complacent. The terror operation of Sept. 11 happened in the open, in full view, these guys didn't have cloaks of invisibility. And no one noticed.
Mt. Rainier, Md.:
Should always check "FACTS." The Q'oran regards Judaism and Christianity as sister religions, "peoples of the book," and prohibits harassing these religions. That doesn't mean that individuals with their own agendas don't say ugly things about Jews and Christians, of course, some of which are quite popular. But then Christianity has a long tradition of saying ugly things about Jews and Moslems, too. Even though Christians are "Jews by adoption" according to St Paul's letter to the Romans. The practice of any religion shouldn't be confused with its ideals.
Joel Achenbach: You guys settle this outside.
North Potomac, Md.:
It may be the start of a long war or the last clash of fading powers, but that depends on what we do. It is something of a surprise to see nations lining up against Iraq after our success in Afghanistan. But it does prove that nothing succeeds like success. But my question is a bit different. What is all of this diverting our attention from? The push to get out of the ABM treaty and the civil rights moves may be the lasting effect of all of this war.
Liked the Sunday piece.
Joel Achenbach: Actually I think the incident has made us pay MORE attention to things like the ABM treaty and civil rights -- when was the last time you heard people talk about these things? I think this has woken us up. Awakened us. Woked us. Woke us.
Charlottesville, Va.:
What I find fascinating about these theories is the continued search for a "Theory of Everything" -- and I end up finding myself siding with James Baldwin, who believed, if I'm recalling it correctly, that "all theories are suspect" -- but, then, I've never been much of a conspiracy theorist either, and that hasn't changed much, even after Sept. 11 -- i.e., in the sense that I don't think any theory, or any conspiracy, can take into account all the vagaries of the world or its peoples -- that's as unchanging as, apparently, our desire for just such a theory.
Joel Achenbach: No theory takes it all into account, but maybe there is a theory that explains WHAT THIS IS ALL ABOUT. I assume most people in America still turn to Scripture for that.
Morgantown, W.Va.:
Thanks, Chicago, for amplifying the real issue that I proposed earlier. There is fanaticism in Christian and Muslem societies, but to date we do not see anywhere near the degree of opposition to fanaticism in Muslem societies that we do in Christian ones. The "extremists" in Islam are estimated at something between 10-20 percent of the whole by many observers, and that is troubling.
Joel Achenbach: I'll admit I have little sense of the proportion of extremism in Muslim societies. Anecdotally (through TV and news reports) you see evidence in both directions. Probably the most significant fact of post-Sept. 11 is that the Muslim "street" didn't actually erupt against the West.
North Carolina:
I don't know if it's the intellectual content of today's discussion or the reference to your hair, but I am very turned on right now.
Joel Achenbach: Then read the Weingarten transcript and you'll go over the top.
Silver Spring, Md.:
Why does the Washington Post choose to faithfully serve as the mouthpiece for the defense establishment?
Joel Achenbach: They have cannons trained directly on our building.
On a "lighter" note:
Jeez, this chat has become heavier than a graduate seminar; I think I need another cup of coffee.
So on a lighter note, is there anything as sublimely absurd as the replacement fuses on a $2.50 string of Christmas lights?
I mean, I suppose if we were part of a Middle Eastern tribe/clan struggling to mediate the forces compelling us to nation state status where our daily wages were...oops.
Sorry.
Joel Achenbach: And there WILL be a test.
Charlottesville, Va.:
Oh, don't get me wrong, I'd like to have a theory of everything as much as the next person -- and I do think broad generalizations are necessary, just as much as quibbling over the details. As for what this is all about, I don't know -- it's still "through a glass, darkly," for me.
Joel Achenbach: Another good theory-of-everything type book is Guns, Germs and Steel, which explains European colonialism and everything else in the past 500 years as a function of the shape and alignment (north-south, east-west) of various continents.
Hitsville U.K.:
I think the "Sandanista!" album illustrates the "Clash" theory, while confusingly the "End" theory is best illustrated by "The Clash." Although "Give 'em Enough Rope" probably works too.
I always liked "London Calling" best though. "Combat Rock" doesn't count, it wasn't the same band.
Joel Achenbach: I think the Doors version of The End is better than Fukuyama's.
Washington, D.C. (Still not an actual State!):
Rather than some new phenomena such as the "Clash of Civilizations" or the hope that we are "progressing" somewhere. Isn't the bin Laden episode more reminiscant of the demogogues and icons of the 1920s through 1940s; with such wonderful humanitarians like Mussolini, Franco, Stalin, Hitler, Lenin, et al. This particular demogogue (bin Ladin) is similar to them but unlike them doesn't have a state to control.
Joel Achenbach: bin Laden reminds me of a retrovirus.
Washington, D.C. via Los Angeles, Calif.:
Joel,
I don't think you gave enough space to Benjamin Barber's views. His thinking is essentially the synthesis of Fukuyama's and Huntington's. Neither of them are right, but Barber gets it about as right as it goes, it seems.
In essence: tribalism and global capitalism are push-pull forces, interacting with and feeding off each other, both of which undermine democracy and the nation-state.
Also, I met them both -- didn't you think Fukuyama was a lot nicer? I did.
Cheers.
Joel Achenbach: Fukuyama is certainly a very pleasant fellow. But Huntington was polite, given that I don't think he relishes interviews. I didn't give much space to Barber's views but plugged his book and quoted him.
Potomac, Md.:
Good afternoon Joel! Enjoy your column very much. Comments on the Clash: any theory has "final," "end" type of words in it is surely simplistic and naive, considering human history may well have many 5000years to go. It may only reflect more of the theorist's hope than reality. Furthermore, I also found that the comment "it's also not helpful to world politics" laughable from an "interlectual" like Fukuyama unless he has hiden political agenda.
Joel Achenbach: That WAS a rather strong comment by Fukuyama. My impression is that academics should be able to say and write what they please -- we're all grown ups here.
well, not ME, but most people.
Hasselt, Belgium:
In my humble opinion, both participants are very wrong. History keeps developping. And the facts of the fields prove that the clash is not between Islam and the "West" (what is "West" by the way: a geographical, cultural or political entity?) In a well balanced debate, Prof. John Esposito would have been invited, why wasn't he?
Joel Achenbach: Is he related to Phil Esposito.
Morgantown, W.Va.:
Since this seems as much of a live chat as a focused discussion, I'll ask this: What in the world is "the Weingarten transcript"? Is that somebody's conspiracy tract? A new "Mein Kampf"? Help me out, please. washingtonpost.com:
Another discussion that preceeded Joel's. Here's the transcript.
Joel Achenbach: Gene got me started in the biz. Also he got Dave Barry started. He's like 80 years old now but still funny, amazingly enough.
Charlottesville, Va.:
And re: the perils of a "theory of everything," check out Walker Percy's "The Moviegoer." In fact, I think I will, again.
Joel Achenbach: I liked The Last Gentleman.
Hey, I'm outta gas. Sorry this chat degenerated into a college seminar in which no one had actually done the reading but everyone had an opinion.
La Plata, Md.:
I think the "general framework" against which to view this stuff is as it's always been: Extremists exist and are out to destroy their enemies of choice. Always have, always will.
The kicker is that they now have (or will have) access to weapons of mass destruction. This is the new dynamic that, depending on how we address it, may lead to the slow erosion of privacy and personal freedom. The next few decades will be a time of balancing the competing demands of safety and freedom/privacy.
Joel Achenbach: But what about Global Warming.
Joel Achenbach: Lisa reports by internal message mode that the sex pistols may reunite for QEII jubilee.
Joel Achenbach: Alrighty then, see you round! Happy holidays everyone...cheers, Joel
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