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Rough Draft Live
With Joel Achenbach
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, Oct. 11, 2001; 2 p.m. EDT
This week, we retaliated. The bombs began falling on Sunday as U.S. and British forces began pounding Taliban targets. At the same time, Arab cable network al-Jazeera aired a videotape of Osama bin Laden pledging that the U.S. would not know peace until the Palestinians did. Meanwhile, other bin Laden associates have pledged more violence on America.
After all the talking heads fall silent and all the primers on the Middle East have been read in an effort to understand ancient motivations in the region and modern hatred of the U.S., questions remain. What's prompting these attacks? How scared should we be? And despite our past foreign policy snafus does anyone really "deserve" this?
Joel Achenbach was online Thursday, Oct. 11.
The transcript follows.
Achenbach's column, Rough Draft, appears online a couple of times a week.
Editor's Note: Washingtonpost.com moderators retain editorial control
over Live Online discussions and choose the most relevant questions for guests and hosts; guests and hosts can decline to answer questions.
Joel Achenbach: Friends:
What a month.
Truly horrible and yet, for all that, inspiring.
Please send any and all questions or thoughts or random observations or invectives or even insensible gutter-language sputterings, and we'll post them right here on the site and perhaps even respond intelligently. Please do not use words that have to be looked up in a dictionary. Like "troglodytic."
As that is annoying.
Also, if you haven't yet, read the recent Rough Drafts, as they will likely to referenced by some participants. This week I wrote a couple of columns in which, cutting against the grain and showing incredible journalistic bravery, I criticized Osama bin Laden.
So let's rumble.
Gambier, Ohio:
I think it's important to note that there is no policy we could change which would satisfy Osama bin Laden. This isn't about what we do, it's about who we are.Bin Laden will continue to murder innocents as long as any person stands who does not wish to follow one particular interpretation of the Koran. If he ran out of Westerners, if he ran out of Christians and Jews, he'd turn on other Muslim sects.
On the other hand, I can't think of anyone who has so horribly illustrated the dangers of our strange bedfellows. We can prove our greatness to the world by seeking true justice, not only be eliminating Al-Qaeda, but by simultaneously fighting those situations (poverty and oppression) which cause it to exist.
Joel Achenbach: Very wise observation. Some of the emails I've gotten have said we need to reexamine our Israel policy -- I'm getting lots of stuff saying we oppress the Palestinians, etc. -- but obviously any change in that policy right now would reward terrorism, potentially. Moreover I don't think that Osama is advocating a Palestinian state in co-existence with an Israel with pre-1967 borders. I suspect he is of the drive-them-into-the-sea school of thought.
Joel Achenbach: By the way, if I happen to post a "reply" that seems to be something of a nonsequitur, that's because this is not really a dialogue in this chat room, it's more like a crowded cafe with lots of people coming and going and people interrupting and shouting.
Washington, D.C.:
Isn't bombing akin to poking a stick into a beehive? Wouldn't our time and dollars be better spent undercutting the support for terrorism by providing true aid and assistance (not just 37,000 MREs for the starving million) to those allied because of poverty and injustice with Osama bin Laden because it looks like he offers a better alternative? If we could offer self-determination, tolerance for a diversity of viewpoints, and economic opportunity so that the population of Afghanistan (and other impoverised and oppressed nations) could obtain a reasonable quality of life, wouldn't that go a long way towards removing reasons for people to attack us?
Joel Achenbach: I think the current operation, in theory, is designed quite specifically to elminate Osama and the Taliban, and will soon involve a lot of special forces operations who will swoop in at night, quietly, take out a bunch of people, and chopper away. Everything I've seen of this operation indicates that it is designed to AVOID causing a swarm of bees, to use your metaphor. And yes, I think everyone of all political persuasions thinks we could potentially do our most longlasting and important work with civil engineers rather than soldiers.
Somerville, Mass.:
Hey, Joel. I just wanted to point something out (read: nitpick.) You took issue with bin Laden saying that the destruction was God's will. This doesn't mean the same thing to Muslims as it does to others.
It's quite common for Muslims to say something like "I'll meet you at the mall at 4:00, if God wills it." It's an acknowledgement that God is the one in control. I'm not refuting that bin Laden believes he's doing holy work, just challenging that particular example.
Joel Achenbach: I'll try to keep that in mind. fyi, right after the attack one of the religious leaders in Pakistan, I believe, specifically stated that Allah had intensified the fires at the WTC.
Coral Gables, Fla.:
Why does EVERYTHING WEIRD THAT EVER HAPPENS always have to have a major South Florida element? Why do we have to have the hijackers train here AND an outbreak of anthrax? Is this why you left?
Also, what is the deal with your hair?
I'll hang up and listen to your answer.
Joel Achenbach: South Florida is what California used to be. Soon, Miami will have earthquakes and mudslides.
Let's go down a partial list: Elian Gonzalez, the 2000 Election Recount Fiasco, hijacker training, anthrax outbreak....The next thing you know, O.J. Simpson is going to move down there. Oh wait he already did...never mind...
Joel Achenbach: The picture of me on the site makes me look bald. I keep meaning to do something about that. I am not bald. I do, however, have freakishly limp, lank, lifeless, enervated, verveless, vimless hair.
Washington, D.C.:
Joel -- I don't know if you've heard about this, but apparently Bert, the puppet from Sesame Street, is featured next to bin Laden on posters at anti-American rallies in the Middle East. A couple of screen shots and background can be found at http://www.lindqvist.com/bert.php . It may take a couple of reloads to get the page to display. Apparently, they're taking a bunch more traffic than they're used to.
Joel Achenbach: Yes, the Evil Bert phenomenon apparently started as an Internet hoax a few years ago and, through means no one has yet nailed down, crossed over into real life, and there really are people protesting America as they hold bin Laden/Bert from Sesame Street posters. It does seem ominous. Almost like that photograph of the smoke from the WTC where you could clearly see Satan's face.
Bowie, Md.:
I have a couple of questions:
First -- do you consider yourself a liberal, moderate, or conservative? (I've read some of your stuff and I could swear you're one or the other, none of the above, or all of the above.)
Second, do you believe that the U.S. should "take off the gloves" and retaliate in kind to these terrorists? (For example, if they use chemical or biological or chemical weapons first on us, we should legitimately be able to utilize the same on them without remorse or guilt.)
Joel Achenbach: On whether I'm liberal, moderate or conservative: Yes I am. And passionately so.
Of course we shouldn't use chembio weapons on these guys. We plan to kill them in an ETHICAL way.
Arlington, Va.:
Americans are at heart a profoundly generous people, and we must make the world see this. So far the only confirmed civilian casualties are four Afghans who worked for the U.N., but everyone realizes that more such deaths are inevitable. This is a war for hearts and minds and we must be prepared to head off the negative impact -- and we should also consider that some of those hearts and minds are right here in America, not just in the Middle East. Americans will rightly feel better about what we are doing if we demonstrate our big hearts as well as our big bombs.
To preempt these casualties, the president should make an explicit point of offering aid -- not general countrywide aid, but specific assistance to those individuals or families who can demonstrate, or perhaps even simply present the slightest evidence that they suffered the loss of loved ones. We have the money and the power to make such offers with virtually no pain, and we should not hesitate to do so. Such an announcement has the potential to bring about a sea change in our perception in the "Arab street."
Joel Achenbach: I think the president and Tony Blair have tried to make the case that we're not at war with the Afghan people, but your scenario of aid-to-the-families is perhaps a bit idealistic given that the country is currently UNDER ATTACK and is a war zone. In other words, there are limits, practically, to how much humanitarian assistance you can give to a country you are in the process of bombing.
Arlington, Va.:
I admire your courageous stand against bin Laden. Did everyone get to see Frontline on PBS the other night? Very interesting profile of why these people don't like us and also a lengthy interview with the Saudi ambassador to the U.S. who goes so far as to admit to the corruption of his government. It also pointed out that bin Laden's "generals" are the really dangerous ones, guys like Mohammed Atef who is the alleged mastermind behind these big attacks, and that Egyptian doctor guy who ran the big Egyptian terrorist group that murdered Sadat. Seemed to suggest that bin Laden is more a figurehead and these other guys are the "thinkers." washingtonpost.com:
That show is on again tonight, and Martin Smith and Lowell Bergman are online with us tomorrow to talk about it. FYI. -- Lisa.
Joel Achenbach: But they are not "deep thinkers," so far as I can see. Anyway that is a great Frontline and people should see it.
Dupont South:
I have tried to make airline reservations today on Travelocity. The site won't even offer me flights in and out of National Airport. As a citizen of D.C., I think that's an outrage. I believe a number of the security precautions in place now should have been in place before Sept. 11, such as having defense jets to escort planes of questionable intent. But I think most of the precautions are just for show and don't increase our security one wit.
Joel Achenbach: You can't make plane reservations for National over the Internet? OH THE INCONVENIENCE. I think I speak for us all when I say our hearts go out to you.
Arlington, Va.:
Hi Joel. A lighter question on these serious events: What do you make of the story that a picture of Bert (from Bert and Ernie/Sesamie Street fame) showed up in the background of a poster of bin Laden during an anti-American demonstration in Afghanistan? (for more info see this article: http://www.eonline.com/News/Items/0,1,8950,00.html )
Has The Post been scooped?
Joel Achenbach: The thing is, you always KNEW that, if either Bert or Ernie were to go over to the dark side, it'd be Bert. I NEVER trusted that muppet.
New York, N.Y.:
To all the "Hugs, not bombs" types out there, let's take a moment to realize that billions upon billions of American tax dollars go to food aid, monetary aid, developmental aid, etc, across the Muslim world, and we get nothing but spit at for it by corrupt tin-horn despots who would rather blame America, instead of a lack fo freedom, for the conditions of their citizenry. If Osama is so concerned about the economic plight of his co-religionists, why doesn't he and his Saudi brethren pony up some of their billions in oil money to help out? Clearly, this is not about money or poverty -- it's about freedom and democracy and the rage of a people that that has been unable or unwilling to acheive it for themselves.
Joel Achenbach: I think the question is why, precisely, so many regimes in the Arab world turned against "modernization" and embraced fundamentalism instead...I know I'd like to understand that phenomenon a little better...
Arlington, Va.:
I appreciated your rejoinder in print yesterday to those who were too carping in their criticism of your comments on the terrorist threat.
I'm getting a little tired of hearing that unless you read Arabic and attend a mosque five times a day, you have no right to comment about the Islamic world. The sad fact is that the terrorist bombers seem to have been inspired by a strain of Islam. Night after night we see images from Qatar to Indonesia of frenzied protestors who see those terrorist bombers as saints and heroes. It seems to me that those who criticize the U.S. for its ignorance of the Muslim world would be well served in focusing some attention on the Muslim world's ignorance of the U.S. and larger global events. Then they might begin to understand that their myriad political and economic problems are not all caused by the tiny state of Israel.
Joel Achenbach: Thanks for the comment...
Herndon, Va.:
Mr. A: Forget the less important stuff -- what about the cancellation of the Emmy Awards Show? This was a direct hit on the rear lobes of America's brain (right beside that part of the brain that liked "Survivor").
Joel Achenbach: Has anyone read the great piece in the Onion about people wanting to get their old, superficial lives back?
Washington, D.C.:
A lot of the apologists out there seem to have missed the point. "Religion" is not the issue. Power and dominance, that age-old story (and ultimate cause for all wars) is Osama bin Laden's aim. In this regard, he is no different from Hitler, in all that he cloaks his "cause" in religious rhetoric. He's only using Islam as a means to an end.
There are circumstances in which all the "understanding" in the world will do no good. What is at stake is our freedom and way of life. Literally. I don't see why that's so hard for some people to understand. Do you have any insights?
Joel Achenbach: I'm not sure you can de-religionize this situation...I don't think Osama is using Islam as cover for a political agenda.
Silver Spring, Md.:
Joel,
I am as upset/scared/angry as most people about the terrorist attacks in New York and Washington, D.C. And I support the military action. That being said I really believe that the U.S. needs to take a look at revising the foreign policy, particularly in the Middle East and Asia as part of preventing terrorist activity in the future. You said that are foreign policy actions did not warrant thousands of innocent U.S. citizens to get killed. And I agree, but the US has in many instances given major supported to one side in country conflicts and that side has prevailed only because of the support the US provided. In theose conflicts many innocent people died and to many of their survivors U.S. is to blame. God Bless America.
Joel Achenbach: Two things: First, I don't agree with many of the emails I've gotten that suggest, or in fact declare, that U.S. foreign policy is the root cause of this crisis. I'm not even sure it's a MAJOR cause. That feels reductionist to me. Implicit in these emails (but often unstated, maybe because its so delicate) is that we've been too supportive of Israel. I think everyone should understand that now -- right now -- is not the time to start throwing around proposals to be less supportive of Israel or less supportive of the Saudi royal family, etc., because to the extent that this is a real "war" it is a contest of wills, and for purely practical, strategic reasons a narrow, targeted agenda -- taking out the Taliban and bin Laden -- should be Priority One, Priority Two, and Priority Three. At least that's amateurish take on it, from here in the Rough Draft pod.
Miami, Fla.:
Why shouldn't we place Yasser Arafat and his Palestinian Authority on the terrosist list considering his close ties to Hamas and Hezbolla amongst others, and all the terrorism that emanates from the areas under his control?
Joel Achenbach: Arafat is maddening, but in moments like this I think people feel that at least he's someone the West can work with as it goes after the terrorists. His aide did quite publicly renounce bin Laden for pretending to speak for the Palestinian cause.
Arlington, Va.:
Unfortunately winning over the hearts and mids of the people on "Arab Street" isn't going to happen with any pronouncements from Dubya, or Blair for that matter. It's got to come from the Muslim leaders and clerics over there that the people actually trust and believe. And that doesn't seem like it is a likely scenario.
Joel Achenbach: Good point.
Richmond, Va.:
I hate when someone forces me to be serious. In response to someone in virtual line ahead of me, I agree that it would be good for America to be "big-hearted" and try to win over the Arab street. I think offering cash to relatives of victims of any attacks we launch, however, sets a really bad precedent AND sets us up for Volume VI of "Bin Laden Speaks," where Osama makes a pretty strong case that George Bush is trying to buy off the families. Helping the five to seven million currently displaced Afghani refugees return to a country at peace would be a better use of our goodwill.
Joel Achenbach: And another one...
Hyattsville, Md.:
Yeah, we are fighting for their hearts and minds. And I do hope we get the CIA on that program. It is reported (yesterday, Washington Post) that the CIA is trying to get Taliban "converts" through bribery and fear. These greedy chicken-----s should be a great advertisement for us. Not to mention a PR coup for bin Laden. We can't win support by moral force, we have to buy them. They -already- think that about us.
Joel Achenbach: I'm just going to post these comments, as so many are flooding in...
Surrounded by Circles, Washington, D.C.:
This is in response to a previous posting implying that getting rid of poverty in the third world will staunch the flow of terrorists. I have to ask -- have you read anything about any of the hijackers? These were not poor people who fell into this because they had nothing else. They were educated middle to high income men. They weren't driven to do this out of poverty.
Joel Achenbach: In America we tend to look at these situations through familiar lenses: Politics, economics. We associate poverty with crime. We think of military belligerance as driven by political ambitions. In this case, though, we are dealing with a force that is somewhat unfamiliar to us, religious zealotry. That is something that crosses socioeconomic lines and doesn't fit into the usual political grid. (In other words, getting back to something I said earlier, I'm not sure this is a matter that can be solved with a certain political boundary through East Jerusalem.)
Kabul, Afghanistan:
Meester Achenbach,
God is great! Why doesn't the American President Bush come out with a host of notable Islamic clerics and denounce on worldwide television Osama Bin Laden and the Taliban government in a specific, point by point declaration as a perversion of the Holy Koran. These laughable fools (terrorists) sorely need to be exposed as the phonies they are, as the Islamic faith is not at all about what they are proclaiming. Thank you!
Joel Achenbach: Good Internet connection you have there in Kabul.
I did think Bush should have come back on Sunday and done a point-by-point rejection of the Osama statement. You KNOW Clinton wouldn't have passed up the chance.
Waynesburg, Pa.:
Joel,
Can you please assure your loyal followers that your building is as secure as it can be and all workers, particularly those with access to the ventilation systems, have been thoroughly screened -- e.g., lie detector tests, etc.? And as I recall you also have lousy (old) elevators. Maybe you should take the stairs!
Plus, can we ever laugh again without looking over our shoulder?
Joel Achenbach: I am typing this inside an impermeable plastic bubble fed with pure oxygen from military-issue canisters.
South of Constitution Avenue:
So what's up with the vice president, Dick Cheney? I'm a little nervous, with his condition and all, that the next time we see him that it won't be a "Max Headroom" kind of thing. Know what I mean?
Joel Achenbach: He pops up on the weekend, on the talk shows, to prove he's not dead. That's actually a specific duty of the vice-president, as written in the Constitution, Article III, Verse 8.
Washington, D.C.:
Joel,
On a lighter note. How do you think this whole incident will affect Dave Barry's movie "Big Trouble," which was supposed to be released a few weeks after the attacks took place? I thought of this when I saw the reader who mentioned that everything has a connection to Southern Florida. I think "Big Trouble" is basically saying the same thing. It's just unfortunate that it had to do with a plane being hijacked, other than that it is just about one of the funniest stories I've read in a while. Do you think it will still be released, and if so how do you think the public will react to it?
Joel Achenbach: I think it will be boffo, THREE THUMBS UP, and will "hijack" America's funny bone to the LAND OF NONSTOP LAUGHS.
Washington, D.C.:
Hi, Joel. I did read the Onion piece, and it was wonderful, as always. A question comes out of this, though: I watched the Onion and the Daily Show very closely over the past weeks, wondering how humorous news outlets would respond. You, too, have been known to "put on the funny" every once in a while. How hard is it, in a climate of such serious, bleak news, to reintroduce lighter topics into discussion? And have most comedic organizations handled this well, in your opinion?
Love the "Rough Draft."
Joel Achenbach: I don't get the Daily Show because for some stupid reason Comedy Central isn't on DC Cablevision. But then I wouldn't watch it anyway, since it probably comes on after my bedtime (7:30 p.m.). That said, the Onion has been great. I will try to write some funny columns in the future but am not feeling terribly jocose. I mean -- well, I'm just a bit preoccupied with World War III.
Mt. Rainier, Md.:
Actually New York, N.Y., is incorrect that we give "billions and billions" of dollars of tax money in foreign aid to anyone, much less the Muslim countries. Israel is the only donor-relationship of any size, and the tax money that does go to foreign aid is largely for military aid (so that they can use the donated money to buy military equipment from our arms companies -- yes that is specified in the aid). New York would be correct if he said that billions of dollars of private American dollars are channeled to NGOs that provide food, shelter, education, etc., around the world. We are a very generous people, but our government is NOT generous in terms of humanitarian aid. The nordic nations of Sweden, Norway, and Denmark outstrip us every year in humanitarian relief. The fact that our tax money props up repressive regimes in the mideast as well as other places does stand out in bold relief.
Joel Achenbach: All I know is that you can't walk ten feet in this town without stumbling upon an organization that is trying to help people abroad. Maybe we should spend more of our budget on foreign aid, but THIS current crisis doesn't seem to be triggered by a lack of foreign aid to, say, Afghanistan. I've heard that alleged and it's preposterous. Osama and Co. are just using Afghanistan as a place to camp out because they've been exiled elsewhere.
Washington, D.C.:
What's wrong with buying off the Taliban? It's cheaper, less messy, and less deadly. I take that back, I guess it would be more proper to march in parade clothes towards the enemy and fire at the call of a trumpeteer. Come on, dude! Divide and conquer.
Joel Achenbach: The American way: Shopping for peace.
Clinton Followup:
Speaking of which, where is Bill? I can understand him not wanting to look presidential at a time like this, but maybe he can play the "hearts and minds" card that Bush isn't.
Joel Achenbach: Gave a speech here in town Tuesday night...
Boston, Mass.:
The Boston newspapers reported that the hijackers who stayed in Boston in the days before Sept 11, hired hookers from a local escort service. Twice!
What do you make of that? Maybe someone wasn't sure they'd be greeted by virgins in Islamic heaven?
Joel Achenbach: Sounds bogus.
Bethesda, Md.:
Joel, great column. First of all, I'm a Caps fan, and yes, they have traditionally choked in the playoffs. So, yes, by that standard, they are a bad team.
Second, I'd like to know just what the Left would have us do with bin Laden? Sit around, hold hands, and sing Kumbayah with him?
Well, that's just ridiculous. First of all, if we ever were in a position to do that with him, I doubt they'd get the first verse -- forget that, the first note -- of the song out before he killed them.
This evil subhuman wants to do one thing to us. Kill us. He doesn't want to talk to us. He doesn't want to negotiate. He wants to kill us, and as many of us as he can.
He is like a cancer. You don't negotiate with cancer, you destroy it. As we must with him.
By no means am I saying the U.S. is innocent. We have and still do support some pretty sketchy governments.
But that needs to be put aside now, while we address the problem that's right in front of everyone's eyes except the left's -- the fact that there's someone who simply wants to kill us who must be stopped.
Joel Achenbach: I think the Left (and i realize that's a simplistic label for a lot of folks) DOES want bin Laden stopped. I haven't heard what the Left's plan is, though. Howard Zinn responded to Sept. 11 by saying we needed to take our military money and spend it on social programs here in the United States. I think that wouldn't quite nab him.
Cottage City, Md.:
The definition of "terrorist" is a little dicey, since one man's terrorist tends to be another man's freedom fighter or national security agent. The countries who are concerned about who defines "terrorist" have reason. Not but what we certainly have broad general agreement on bin Laden.
Joel Achenbach: Sept. 11 wasn't a case of "freedom fighting." I would think that targetting civilians specifically in an attempt to deliver a psychological blow and instill fear in a civilian populace is terrorism; what we're doing in Afghanistan now is NOT terrorism since there is an attempt to target military leaders, the attack came after numerous warnings, and there are attempts to reassure the civilian population, verbally and with humanitarian food drops, that we're not trying to kill them.
Joel Achenbach: Welcome to Obviousness 101.
James -- in Washington, D.C.:
Hi Joel, I have listened and read to some of the Islamic commentators and writers concerning U.S. policy. One particularly caught my attention. He said that the U.S. did not want to kill Saddam Hussein when they had a chance because this would destroy any reason we would have to remain in Saudi Arabia and keep the oil flowing to the U.S. What do you think of this theory? As for your theories being "too simplistic", I think those letters and e-mails are too simplistic. People should ask themselves, "Who would you support?, a democractic government with similar religious values or the many dictators, kingdoms etc. -- representing the Arab, Islamic world. I would love to see the Palestinians get a home, but I fear that would not be enough and what they really want is Israel wiped from the map of the world. After reading of Clinton's last minute try to make a fair deal, I have come to believe Arafat won't accept any deal.
Joel Achenbach: I think we DID try to kill Saddam. Do you recall that story? We missed him. This was during the Gulf War. As for not rolling onto Baghdad, I think it was beyond the stated military objective of the war and that the Powells who conducted that war didn't think they could plausibly occupy the country ... Also they thought that surely the Iraqi people would rise up and depose Saddam.
Arafat and Hamas?!:
The earlier poster who cited Arafat's "close ties with Hamas" doesn't know squat. Hamas is a rival organization that's doing its best to derail and discredit Arafat's efforts and has been for years. (Think the Palestinian version of Barak v. Sharon.) Old Yasser is hardly a saint, but he looks positively conciliatory next to the Hamas crowd!
Joel Achenbach: Thanks for the clarification.
Eureka, Calif.:
Megalomania is a worldwide disease, which afflicts the rich rather than the poor. We are not witnessing the anger of a grassroots movement, but a strategic plan being carried out by rich, powerful individuals who want to do battle with the biggest foe on earth. Bin Laden is the ultimate macho man. washingtonpost.com:
At 6'5", 150 pounds?
Joel Achenbach: Well, he's been dieting....
Actually I'm glad you mentioned that. I think bin Laden (as I said in the column) is living out something of a fantasy, he's a combination of a James Bond villain, Dr. Evil and some reincarnated 8th-century warrior....Although psychoanalysis at a distance is not my speciality.
Addis Ababa, Ethiopia:
Could people please get this straight: "Afghani" is the currency.
"Afghan" is the nationality. It doesn't make sense to refer to oppressed Afghanis.
Joel Achenbach: Such misused language just adds to their misery.
Red Wings Girl:
The Caps are neither a good team nor a bad team. They are a mediocre team that plays boring hockey and finishes around .500 every year. In years when this is good enough to make the playoffs, they choke in the first round. In my hockey-crazed family, "To capitalize" = "to choke."
What's red white and blue and plays golf in May?
Joel Achenbach: finally someone backing me up on the caps!
Critical Thought, USA:
Re: New York, N.Y. -- we don't give billions upon billions of dollars in aid to the Middle East. Check the budget -- check your facts -- foreign aid is 1 percent of 1 percent of the budget. The $2.5 billion in aid that we give goes to two nations Isreal and Egypt. I have no problem helping Israel, but I do take issue with selling repressive regimes weapons and calling it aid all in the name of stability. Joel maybe you should take a course in foreign policy. People who are asking the press to take the long view and not simply carp the party line -- know their history. Consider the current situation in Iraq with Saddam (we supported and armed him, and when democratic opposition leaders stood up at the end of the gulf war we let them be slaughtered) but Saddam is still here. Other strategic alliances include the Shah of Iran, the current Egyptian governemnt, and the current Saudi regime. Hell think about the current dictator in charge of Pakistan. When we make these strategic decisions to support autocratic regimes, we pay a very high price. By all means get Osama and his organization, but remember that there are a dozen more of his ilk waiting in the wings, and if we don't change our policies history will repeat itself. I'm not talking about trying to convince bin Laden of our innate goodness, but to have any kind of peace -- we need to convince his talent pool that his way is wrong, that it does not reflect Islam, and that we are a nation that walks the talk when it comes to supporting democracy.
Joel Achenbach: Thanks for the posting, but what exactly do you want the United States to do? Do you really think that the U.S. controls the destiny of the Arab and Muslim worlds? I sense a solipsistic view of the world in which the U.S. is the only agent of change -- everything we do is bad, bad! Why don't you at least raise the possibility that there are indigenous forces here at work?
AARRGH !:
Everytime I hear someone say "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter" I can feel my blood pressure go up. What bull----. Go to dictionary.com. Look up terrorism, terrorist, and freedom fighter. THEY ARE NOT THE SAME.
Whew. Thank's for letting me vent.
Joel Achenbach: Put ice on that.
Upper Dupont, Washington, D.C.:
Worth reading:
Poor Excuse
Don't blame Third World poverty for Sept. 11.
by Emily Yoffe
http://slate.msn.com/pol/01-10-01/pol.asp
The men of privilege and education who turned planes into bombs also murdered Leobardo Lopez Pascual. His response to poverty was to leave rural Mexico four years ago, and a wife and four children whom he hadn't seen since, to support his family by working in a kitchen on the top of the World Trade Center.
Joel Achenbach: Duly posted.
Alexandria, Va.:
The entire nation of Israel could move to Belgium tomorrow and bin Laden's jihad would remain in place. He has more targets than just the U.S.; the Saudis expelled him some time ago for his threat to them. He is a dollar-store version of Hitler.
Joel Achenbach: I agree.
Out West:
Heretical Statement:
I am tired of the extensive use of the phrase "God Bless America." It has become trite and cliched, and I think it is used as a proxy to avoid real political and moral thinking, and as a defensive prop to so deflect any challenge of the author's opinions. Wrapping nationalism in a religious overcoat immediately raises distrust with me: at best its self-righteous, at worst manipulative.
It's not just the God thing. I think prayers for the U.S. to have for strength, wisdom, clarity, compassion and more are right on target, and maybe "God bless America" covers the whole nut. But saying, "GWB is a great leader, God Bless America," "Achenbach's an idiot, God Bless America" or "Let's kick some Taliban Booty, Good Bless America" gives me the creeps.
Joel Achenbach: Oh you're gonna go to a VERY BAD PLACE for saying that.
I read a wire story yesterday that many atheists are feeling excluded by all the God Bless America talk, and all the prayer services. I believe this is a burden the atheists can bear. Personally I think it is possible to view the phrase God Bless America as a secular expression of patriotism, if one so wishes.
Joel Achenbach: Yikes! Gotta go...I'll post a bunch of the messages, real fast....
Gambier, Ohio:
In all fairness to "Critical Thought, USA," we vigourously opposed the coup in Pakistan and their new dictator.
Well, until he became useful to us.
Joel Achenbach: Yeah, weren't we making fun of that guy just two years ago?
Alexandria, Va.:
Arafat freed all of the Hamas and Islamic Jihad terrorists who were in Palestinian jails last fall, knowing that they would launch a new wave of terrorism against Israel. Sounds like Arafat was in league with the terrorists last fall, don't you think?
Joel Achenbach: Noted.
Washington, D.C.:
Did anyone read the article in either Sunday's or Monday's New York Times that interviewed students in a Brooklyn Muslim high school? They felt that Americans were fundamentally hostile and completely prejudiced against them. Why would they remain in a place like that? On yes, they wanted a chance to become lawyers, doctors. They wanted to make money. They admitted that not one of them had been subjected to harassment. The local churches and synagogues had invited them to an interfaith worship service. And others in the neighborhood had reached out to them. And they still felt this resentment to the U.S. What is their problem?
Joel Achenbach: None of the participants in this discussion read The New York Times. We abhor it.
Northern Virginia:
Joel,
Why haven't we used small nukes in Afghanistan yet? What about the credibility of our deterrent? Since when can a bunch of nogoodniks kill 7,000 Americans on an otherwise nice day and NOT expect a nuclear response? What's going on here? If the terrorists use anthrax on a large-scale, are we going to increase our humanitarian food drops in response? We've got so many perfectly good tactical nukes. I'm feeling blue.
Joel Achenbach: You need a vacation. You need to take some serious time off.
20037 responding to AAARGH:
OK I have to comment...
Yitzak Shamir
David Ben Gurion
Golda Meir
All responsible for the deaths of quite a few British soliders and colonial officials in the '40s through bombings of hotels, cafes, etc.
Freedom fighters or terrorists?
One man's terrorist is another's freedom fighing hero.
Joel Achenbach: You guys work it out.
Vienna, Va.:
Joel: Can you please turn on your brain. NO ONE IS SUGGESTING THAT LACK OF FOREIGN AID TRIGGERED THIS CRISIS. Do you think the hijackers just woke up and decided to crash planes into skyscrapers? No this has been building, and within a longitudinal framework lack of foreign aid did shape this -- because instead of everyone in the Muslim community shunning bin Laden after his initial terrorist attacks -- the moderates sat on the sidelines, and the governments of middle eastern countries sat on the sidelines. So, no a lack of foreign aid did not cause the attacks. But our lack of involvement and awareness did contribute to Osama being able to convince 20 highly educated people to execute a horrible attack on innocent civilians. Can you as a journalist please wake up and start asking some hard questions? Because if you think that bombs will win this then your wrong -- you know why -- because even the Army knows that bombing and ground troops are not the answer.
Joel Achenbach: I think taking action to capture or kill Osama bin Laden WILL solve one problem, which is that Osama bin Laden is not going to direct any more terrorist attacks against us and then gloat about the result in videotapes. Just a note there.
Also please note earlier comment saying that civil engineers can be more helpful longterm than soldiers. We agree on that. I guess where we depart company is that you are more positive than I am that the root of this problem is in American foreign policy.
Washington, D.C.:
Hi Joel --
Your columns are still my favorite, no matter what anyone says about you.
So many are reluctant to talk about how very scary it is to live in this area. Exactly how vigilant are we supposed to be? How scared are you?
Joel Achenbach: I'm slightly apprehensive, but you can't live in fear. Stand and fight. (and thanks for the nice words.)
Dupont South, Washington, D.C.:
I could care less about the convenience. I am concerned about the continuing effect on the tourist industry in D.C. if one of the major internet sources black lists our airport. I had no problem with Orbitz or Delta, btw. And I think your hair is ugly, too.
Joel Achenbach: It's not ugly. It's just...lame. You know? There's a huge difference.
OK BYE EVERYONE....stand tall. be proud. Do something NICE for someone. And remember to do your homework. best, Joel
washingtonpost.com:
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