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On the Job Live
Hosted by Kenneth Bredemeier
Washington Post columnist
Wednesday, Jan. 2, 2002; 11 a.m. EDT/EST
Having problems on the job? Need advice on workplace issues? Ask Post Jobs columnist Kenneth Bredemeier about it.
Kenneth writes about workplace trends and controversies in his weekly
column, and then comes online to engage the audience with questions and new ideas. He has reported for The Washington Post for more than 30 years on real estate, politics and the metro area. He now turns his
attention to issues "On the Job."
Please send Kenneth your workplace queries. He'll include many of the
issues you raise in upcoming columns. And he'll pose his own questions
occasionally and publish the responses.
The transcript follows below.
Editor's Note: Washingtonpost.com moderators retain editorial control
over Live Online discussions and choose the most relevant questions for guests and hosts; guests and hosts can decline to answer questions.
Home Sick, Alexandria:
I graduated college five years ago. For the first three years after graduation, I attended graduate school full-time, but for a host of reasons, primarily financial, I did not complete my degree. Now that I've been in my current position for two years, I'm thinking of moving on, but I don't know how to deal with my grad school period on my resume. I certainly don't want to misrepresent myself as a degree-holder when I'm not, but I hate to leave it off my resume completely -- especially since during my student period I took a series of low- or un-paid internships, mostly part-time, none of which lasted longer than two semesters. My job history during this period thus looks a little flighty and light unless you take into consideration that I was a student at the time. I'm also concerned that mentioning an incomplete degree on the resume will stigmatize me with potential employers. Is this a legitimate concern? Any suggestions would be appreciated...
Kenneth Bredemeier: Good morning to all, and Happy New Year. Hope, especially, the job-hunting is better in 2002 for all those looking!
I think your not finishing grad school need not be a huge issue here. I think you can list it as +Working toward master's degree at University of xxxxx+ If the interviewer asks, you can tell the truth, you started, but haven't finished, primarily for financial reasons, and if you are still at it or plan to continue at some specific point, say so.
Somewhere, USA:
I really want to become a school teacher. I've explored a number of options, including graduate school, since my B.A. is in Mass Comm, but since there is such a shortage I was hoping to find a path less financially burdensome. Do you have any suggestions on what steps to take or who to contact about choosing a career as a teacher? Thanks for the help.
Kenneth Bredemeier: This should not be difficult, but it may be time-consuming to fight through the bureaucracy to get the necessary teaching certification. In some states, you may, with a bachelor's already, be able to teach full time, or at least substitute. In others, I would guess that you will need a teaching license. So, first off, check with the local school distrfict where you want to teach and see what the requirements are in your state, and then the rest is up to get whatever more education you might need.
Alexandria, Va.:
I would like advice please. I have HORRIBLE tenure (a new job every year). A few
years ago, I worked as a docket clerk assistant, and enjoyed my job very much.
However the firm merged with a larger firm and I felt it was not in my best interest to
go with the newer firm. BIG MISTAKE. Yes, most people who went with the merger were
so unhappy they left, but I had less than a year of docketing experience so it was hard
for me to find another job.
I am now working with a legal staffing recruiter who is certified to teach certain aspects
of Intellectual Property law (i.e. foreign filing/docketing) who is willing to take time on
his Saturdays to retrain me in my foggy areas.
Problem? He told me right off the bat the hardest thing would be trying to tell firms why
they should hire me, with my tenure being sketchy. I am also worried that it might be
enough just being trained when I haven't worked in the field for 5 years.
Not to get religious, but I believe God has things take place in your life for a reason: I
believe this recruiter can help me, but I feel there is something I need to be doing to
help the process.
In short, I need a way to be convincing. This recruiter does permanent placing but I
thought I could really shine by telling the firm they could "try before they buy"
(meaning, I willing to show my dedication to this by leaving a full time job with benefits
to temp just to show that I am sincere with the understanding that if it doesn't work out,
it doesn't work out).
Alot of people think that's admirable but could cost me trouble and lost income.
Do you have any ideas or suggestions on how the handle this subject to prospect
employers, or is it too late for me?
Thanks for your help.
Kenneth Bredemeier: Well, sometimes temping does lead to full-time work, but sometimes temping is just that. How long is this new training going to last? If not long, it would seem you ought to continue it, apply for jobs you are qualified for and take it from there. If you've got some track record in this, plus a new skill, then I would think some appropriate firm needing your work would hire you. As for the new job every year, you can say yes, you've done a variety of things, but now realize that this is what you really want to do.
North Liberty, Iowa:
Mr Bredemeier
Don't become a victim? What the heck does that mean? That we have a choice? I no longer believe that with a enough hard work you can be anything you want. I am a 43 year old retired Marine supply officer with a MBA and nearly completed 2nd BA(this one in accounting) and across the board work history of superior performance.
I have spent an entire year (280 resumes)trying to get a job-any job. It appears I am over education or under qualified for every job and my willingness to take entry level pay is irrelevant. Despite my attempt to convince otherwise, I suspect they think I will move on to a better paying job. Consequently I am descriminated for my experience and education. I am not accustomed to failure and yes I have come to see myself as a victim. I guess this is what patriotism gets you these days.
Kenneth Bredemeier: I'll start by analyzing your note, the one with a couple spelling errors. So, first off, when you send those resumes you ought to double and triple check for basic spelling and grammar errors, and then have someone you trust read it again. You think this is not important? I have had some recruiters tell me they immediately pitch all such letters with poor basic English performance. Now, with regard to all the resumes you've sent out, I wonder if you made any efforts to tailor those to specific jobs. I mean other than changing the address. Did you do any research at all on the firms you were applying to, to have a sense of what this company might do and, more importantly, how you might fit in or enhance their bottom line, or contribute in some way. And after you sent that resume, did you attempt to follow up, or did you sit waiting for the phone to ring? I know that it is indeed impossible to fight through the corporate maze sometimes to find out what the hiring prospects really are like, never mind that that the company posted a job opening. But try anyway, and get an interview set up to get your foot in the door. So, feel like a victim if you wish. But you are educated, and willing to work. But you may not be going about looking for work the right way.
Charlottesville, Va.:
I am graduating in May and would like to find an entry-level job with the State Department. But, I have consulted the website and seen a grand total of one job listed. With recent events, it seems they would be expanding, and I know the federal government in general needs young people. Are there any avenues I can pursue besides the OPM website? If not, do you know anything about State's hiring timetable? Thanks.
Kenneth Bredemeier: I know nothing about State's hiring timetable. I would call there directly. I doubt if all openings are listed on the web site. And I would do the same thing for any other agencies I was interested in. Pursue it directly with the agency in question.
Washington D.C.:
Hello. About your article Another Defeat in the Lying Game, I used to work in a law library where the lawyers will ask me to check their clients, defendants, victims who claimed to have PhD. I checked Dissertation Abstracts on Firstsearch. About 2/3 will lie.
Kenneth Bredemeier: You know first hand what people will do to inflate their credentials. Even putting aside any moral or ethical considerations whatsoever, I don't know why people do it on such basic background items, the ones that can be so easily checked, just as you demonstrated. With one phone call, you could check whether someone has a degree they claimed. It's puzzling, but it's human nature, I guess. I would not hire someone who so blatantly lied about their past, and neither will many corporations.
Washington, DC:
Good morning, and happy New Year:
For all hiring employers, I would like to get this message out:
1. Please do not be intimidated by those who have more education than you. We want to be a help to your organization, not a hinderance.
2. Please become more aware of diverse populations, not what is dicipited on television. In many instance, I have been interviewed by young, caucasian individuals who probably do not have friends of color, so I have found that to be a disadvantage for me being an African-American female.
3. Do not ask me can you take a minute to read my resume. You have had more than ample time to do so.
4. Employers, $25K does not cut it in the Washington, DC metropolitan area, so please stop insulting candidates with such low staring salaries.
5. Please contact applicants via e-mail, phone, etc. when one is not selected. Please be considerate--this will decrease ones anxiety level.
6. Remember, it can be you who could be looking for employment. Treat people the way you want to be treated.
Kenneth Bredemeier: And Happy New Year to you. These would be some nice resolutions for job recruiters in 2002.
wiredog:
Mr. Bredemeier,
I came home from Christmas vacation Saturday and checked my e-mail. Someone had sent me his resume. To my home address. In MS Word DOC format. The only place online where my e-mail address is posted is slashdot. So the guy either bought my e-mail address from a spammer, or doesn't realize that people who hang out on slashdot don't like MS word documents. Either way he's clueless. So I put his e-mail address in my spam filter, had the IT department at work do the same, and sent a nastygram headed "Dear Spammer".
Kenneth Bredemeier: Yes, I would think job applications ought to go to the office. So you got rid of the spammer, but I hope that maybe you at least took a glance at it to see if you were interested in the person's credentials. But I still agree that spamming is very, very annoying.
Virginia:
I saw your column about O'Leary and his academic lies. I told my psychology professor that John Gray has a mail-order degree
The professor flunked me out in class. What I do?
Kenneth Bredemeier: Explain more. Who is John Gray? And I don't understand your being flunked. For doing what?
Washington DC:
Regarding Charlottesville's interest in the state department, I can tell you that it is much, much harder to get a job at state than at most other federal agencies. Why? Because it's "glamorous" -- foreign travel, dignitaries, etc. (or at least that's what people think... reality is another thing). Also, because they do most of their hiring either within the Department as transfers or from "status candidates", or those with federal jobs at other agencies. Don't limit your search to State, or I guarantee you will be disappointed.
Kenneth Bredemeier: Ok, good advice from the been there, done that crowd. I also would never limit a job search to a small number of places. But (how many times do I have to say this?) don't just litter the field with your one size fits all resumes.
Rockville, Md:
Is this a good time of year to look for a new job? In the past few months, I have been searching but with little luck. All of a sudden, one offer and one good possibility. What is the deal? I thought summertime was a better time.
Also, to the Marine who can't find a job. You, Ken, are correct. Spelling errors are definitely a minus. I recently interviewed for a position and, although I didn't get it - people with more precise work experience were moved to the top of the list, the interviewer told me he had received more than 100 resumes and threw out 50 due to spelling errors in the resumes.
Kenneth Bredemeier: The economic forecasters, who at least have something of a pedigree to be able to look into the future, seem to think that better economic times are ahead, but still are fuzzy on when that will be. Some job opportunities will obviously materialize faster than others. If I were looking for work, I would pay no attention to the calendar. After all, whenever you start looking, something is likely to present itself just that much sooner than if you start three months down the road, right?
Washington D.C.:
Hi Ken
I think I've reached a crossroads in my career. I like my company a lot. I like my coworkers a lot. And I can finally tolerate my boss. Don't like her but I can tolerate her. I feel like I'm stagnating though, that although I'm doing more important things and not embroiled in gruntwork 50 hours a week anymore, that I'm never going to make any kind of step upwards because my company isn't hiring and not really expanding, just trying to hold down the fort.
Should I try and move on? Or wait and see if things get better at my company? I'm grateful to be working at all, don't get me wrong, but it doesn't mean I shouldn't think about where I'm going either right?
Kenneth Bredemeier: I have heard it said that the best time to look for work is when you already have a job. And I would say that in these uncertain times you do not want to quit a job unless it is absolutely unbearable for some reason unless you have something else lined up (or just hit the lottery). So, for sure, think about your work future. Nothing wrong with that. And if you see no future at your place (have you thought about other spots with more challenge at your shop?) then by all means start looking elsewhere while continuing to perform competently at your current place.
wiredog:
Mr. Bredemeier,
His credentials? His means of contacting me told me all I needed to know. Trying to get a job via spam demonstrates a lack of cluefullness, and propriety. It's not like an -home address could be mistaken for a business address. He could be the Albert Einstein of coders, but if he does that sort of thing, we don't need him.
Kenneth Bredemeier: Ok, fine by me. As I said, resumes ought to go to the office. I kill out all sorts of junk email every day as soon as I see the topic.
Washington DC:
RE: The Washington DC lady...
Stop living in a fairy-tale.
1. A lot of people live on a lot less than 25K a year and a lot more have done it to get their foot in the door.
2. If I'm doing the hiring, I'll take a minute to read a resume if I feel like it. If you don't have the time to spare - then get up and leave.
3. I will try to be as considerate as possible but finding you a job is of utmost importance to only you. I have a lot of resumes to weed through.
4. A good interview is not about finding a racquetball buddy or a new friend. The individuals who interview you are not supposed to relate but find out who you are. And, apparently, you are an African American female who defines herself solely by that.
Good luck getting a job....I wish you the best of luck with your attitude.
Kenneth Bredemeier: A return voice from the other side of the hiring process.
20906:
For thw military guy with an accounting degree - consider an entry level position with a small CPA firm - they are more open minded, and very desperate for those willing to work. Most 22 year olds coming out of school want Big 5. It may not be fun, but will get your foot in the door.
Kenneth Bredemeier: Possibly this might work.
To the Marine:
Man, that is one huge chip on that shoulder! No one owes anyone a job, and the "victim" statement is just annoying. I'm a veteran myself, and I often see fellow veterans acting almost hostile about the job search. You're obviously stressed about an unproductive search. Instead of getting defensive, maybe you should speak to a counselor or take a break from your search. Interviewers can sense that hostility immediately, so you're just hurting your chances by continuing the bulldozer approach.
Kenneth Bredemeier: Well, there are some true victims in the world, say someone hit by a drunk driver. But you are right, as I suggested, that he needs to refocus his job search tactics.
Washington, DC:
In response to the former poster's list of instructions for recruiters, I have to say that she is carrying a load of misconceptions (and probably a chip on the shoulder) vis a vis recruiters.
The poster's point #2 is especially bizarre -- we live in Washington, DC -- a city that is so diverse that it is not easily categorized, and yet the poster thinks that white people have no friends of color and therefore are prejudiced against her?
If her attitude regarding insulting job offers (my first job paid 21K and I was glad to have it), discrimination, and how impolite hiring officials are comes through as loudly in person as it does on the 'Net, it's no surprise people haven't offered her a job.
Personal interaction is important. If you don't come across as a team player, don't expect an employer to be wild about you as a candidate.
Kenneth Bredemeier: Another piece of advice for the job looker.
to the person at a crossroads:
I waited for things to get better at my company and I then proceeded to be unhappy for a year. I finally started to look and realized that I was being WAY underpaid and that there were some more interesting things out there. Had one interview already and two more scheduled.
BUT bear in mind, I don't know what industry you're in, but a lot of companies are trying to hold down the fort right now in these trying times. If there's a light at the end of the tunnel it might be worth sticking around. Finally, do you have a supervisor you can talk to about your questions about the company's growth? Might be worth bringing up.
- someone who's been there.
Kenneth Bredemeier: More sage advice.
Re: tips for recruiters:
I agree with the response given by Washington DC. Courtesy is one thing. Interviewing someone with such an OBVIOUS chip on her shoulder is another.
Kenneth Bredemeier: Courtesy helps on all fronts, folks, from either side of the interviewing table.
Alexandria:
The African-American female also needs to learn how to spell. She could start with what she meant by "dicipate."
Kenneth Bredemeier: Yup. I suspect depicted is what she meant.
Washington, D.C.:
Hi,
I'm interested in relocating to California and am having a difficult time with the job search. I'm scared to leave my secure job (that I don't like) for the great unknown. Do you think it would be easier to find a job in Cali from Cali? I'm still not sure where I want to live so have been sending resumes all over the state. Thank you
Kenneth Bredemeier: Yes, I would guess being on the scene would make it easier. But not hardly necessary either. More important, for sure, is making enough of an impression in your resume/cover letter to get an interview and taking it from there. And following the various job search tacks I've laid out repeatedly.
That is it for today folks. Thanks for the chat. Please remember that you can reach me at bredemeier@washpost.com with more questions for the On the Job column in the Sunday Post Business section. And I sometimes keep a handful of questions from this chat to get the views of experts to include in the newspaper column, as I am doing today. Seeya back here next Wednesday.
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