Joby Warrick and Lea Thompson

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Modern Meat: Buyer Beware
With Joby Warrick, Washington Post Staff Writer, and Lea Thompson, Dateline NBC Correspondent
Monday, April 9, 2001; 11 a.m. EDT

How much do you know about the meat you eat? What should you know about meat processing plants, government regulations on the meat industry, and how those rules are enforced? Washington Post staff writer Joby Warrick and Dateline NBC correspondent Lea Thompson looked at the process in a two-part series entitled "Modern Meat," and were online Monday, April 9 to talk about what they learned.

Based on a seven-month investigation, this series reveals major flaws in the U.S. government's meat-safety net. A joint effort with Dateline NBC examines the spread of deadly E. coli bacteria. The Post reveals how increased production speeds at many processing plants causes the botched slaughter of cows and pigs, condemning the animals to a slow and painful death.

The transcript follows.

Editor's Note: Washingtonpost.com moderators retain editorial control over Live Online discussions and choose the most relevant questions for guests and hosts; guests and hosts can decline to answer questions.

washingtonpost.com: We'll be getting started shortly....

Joby Warrick and Lea Thompson: Good morning everyone. We are glad to be here and take your questions. --Joby and Lea

Silver Spring, MD: Your story says that the outbreak was caused by contamination of watermelon with meat. Even the safe handling label on meat tell us not to cross contaminate. So why is this story all about meat packing instead of food preparation? What did the state public health department have to say?

Joby Warrick and Lea Thompson: Whenever an outbreak occurs, there are generally multiple breakdowns in the system. Many people have explored problems that occur b/c of cross contamination and improper cooking. But as we see in this story, the victims were completely defenseless-- there was nothing for them to look for or to prepare themselves for.-- Joby

And they were in a restaurant which by anyone's definition was considered to be sanitary. --Lea

And so it becomes important to trace what happened at the production end and to see if everything possible was done to make the meat safe. In this case, there is a very strong suggestion that there were lapses in the system.--Joby

Stafford, Virginia: How can I avoid consuming meat processed by plants with repeated sanitation violations?

Joby Warrick and Lea Thompson: You can't. The problem is you really do have to depend on the govt's inspection system and the plant's willingness to worry more about the safety of our food than it does about its bottom line production costs. And that really is the basis of our story. --Lea

Warrenton, Virginia: i wanted to submit a comment. edit it as you see fit for your livetalk. first, i think your story is uncannily timely; i suspect that i just suffered a bout with e coli which began thursday evening (with all the classic symptoms) subsequent to my eating a rib-eye steak that i purchased at my local grocery store. as a long-term, bona fide meat lover (limited to once-a-week indulgences), this first-time recent experience has opened my eyes to my complacency on the subject(i used to think that e coli might be a PETA or vegan "backlash"). i am now someone who is suspicious about my meat.

sincerely,

sandy panek

Joby Warrick and Lea Thompson: Sandy, it could very well be that you did. Most people never connect their stomach upsets to food borne pathogens. The fact is that 73,000 people are sick each year just from E Coli and millions more from other bacteria found in meat. Unless you get so sick that you end up in a doctor's office or a hospital, you don't know.--Lea

Food borne illnesses as a group are HIGHLY under-reported. In the Milwaukee case, as few as 500 and as many as 700 were believed to have been affected. Only 62 had lab confirmed cases. --Joby

And understand, that's just over a very short period of time in one restaurant where some bad meat got through the system. --Lea

Chevy Chase, MD: How do E. coli 0157:H7 outbreaks from meat compare to outbreaks from other food sources? Is it always from beef?

Joby Warrick and Lea Thompson: No. E Coli is found naturally in the intestines of all mammals. The deadly strain was just discovered 20 years ago and since then it has been showing up in an increasing variety of places from watermelon to brussel sprouts to swimming pools where toddlers play to petting farms. In every case there is ultimately a connection to meat or a live animal. --Joby

White Plains, NY: Can I tell just by looking at a cooked hamburger served to me at a McDonald's whether it is tainted? I guess what I'm asking is what does an infected hamburger look like?

Joby Warrick and Lea Thompson: No you can't see any of these bad bacteria and you can't smell them either. That's what makes them SO insidious. The only way you can know if they are if you test for them. --Lea

I'll first say that you can look for signs that the meat is undercooked, although pinkness is NOT always an indicator of the cooking temperature. In defense of the retail industury, chains like McDonald's are taking this problem EXTREMELY seriously and they are requiring their suppliers to undergo extensive testing for pathogens -- tests that are much MORE strenuous than the USDA requires. --Joby

People have said to me "Do you mean to say that I actually have to get a thermometer and test my meat before I eat it?" The answer is: YES. You can get one in any grocery store. Beef, pork and lamb have to be cooked to 160 degrees. Poultry to 165. --Lea

But obviously this does you little good if you're eating out which is what happened in the Milwaukee outbreak. --Joby

Loisville, KY: Ms. Thompson- you said the restaurant was sanitary by anyone's definition- wasn't that restaurant and another owned by the franchised shutdown for sanitary practices?

Joby Warrick and Lea Thompson: It wasn't shut down. It shut down on its own volition. But, what I'm saying is this was not a slop house. This was a favored family restaurant that most people probably would not think had terrible food handling practices. --Lea

This particular restaurant had been owned by the same 2 partners since the mid 80's w/out ever having any serious violations that we are aware of. However, another Sizzler restaurant about 8 years ago was linked to an E Coli outbreak that occured under very similar circumstances -- a case of cross contamination that affected non meat foods. --Joby

Fairfax, Virginia: If inspectors and so called consumer groups do not like the modernized inspection system, how do they propose to eliminate microscopic organims that are found everywhere in the environment, not just on meat,amd even in the disgestive systems of healthy humans? Why does your story only focus on the problem and not suggest solutions?

Joby Warrick and Lea Thompson: In theory there is no question that the new system, HACCP, is more suited to addressing problems w/microbrial contamination. The old system of relying on the senses of inspectors clearly is not up to the challenge of eliminating invisible bacteria. This story more raises the question of what happens when companies violate their HACCP plans... at what point does the government take action to fix problems. I, like many, was surprised to learn that the USDA has very few enforcement options to use against repeat violators. It can't, for example, order a recall of tainted meat. --Joby

Charlottesville, VA: I am a little confused over the way these numbers are being reported. It seems to me that the percentages involved are extremely low considering that we all eat at least once a day and that beef is a staple of the American diet. I am concerned about peoples safety but I believe that the main reason you guys are developing this story the way you are is to just sell more newspapers.
What do you think?

Joby Warrick and Lea Thompson: They are low numbers, but if you're one of those numbers, you and your family are affected forever. As one inspector told us, we can never get rid of all of the contamination on our food, but there is a lot we can do, to lower those numbers and I don't even work for a newspaper. --Lea

Our art graphic today in the paper shows that the USDA is finding more E Coli each year in its random samples of ground beef in grocery stores and beef plants. This is partly due to better sampling technology, but the number of positives is now approaching 1 percent. That means a 1/100 chance that the ground beef you buy will contain this particular deadly pathogen. And that doens't include samonella, which the USDA acknowledges is present on about 6 percent of ground beef and more than 1/3 of all turkeys. --Joby

I just talked to a woman this morning who was affected by samonella poisoning when she was pregnant and as a result delivered a seriously retarded child. It's hard to tell her that these are just low numbers. --Lea

Corvallis, Montana: As a restaurant owner, how can I be sure that my supplier gets meat from a "safe" meat packer?

Joby Warrick and Lea Thompson: It's great to hear from someone like you who must feel like you are caught between a rock and a hard place. It seems to me that you can do the same thing that some of the large fast food restaurants do which is to require your meat suppliers to show you E Coli testing from their plant. Remember the government doesn't require that. --Lea

Washington, DC: How will the industry / USDA salmonella testing court case impact efforts to strengthen food safety laws?

Joby Warrick and Lea Thompson: This is an extremely important case that is being closely watched by consumer groups as well as the industry. The meat industry argues that the requirement to meet standards for raw meat and samonella is unfair and does not necessarily reflect how well they are running their plants. The consumer groups and an obviously retailers like McDonald's think it's very important and relevant to know how good a job plants are doing at eliminating dangerous microbes. Many groups are anxiously waiting to see how the Bush administration will weigh in this controversy. --Joby

Arlington, VA: Exactly what options does the government have to use against repeat violators and how did they change under the new system? And isn't a recall a little late in the process?

Joby Warrick and Lea Thompson: Recalls are often too late. Generally the test results showing a positive sample aren't known for at least a week. By that time, some of the meat is not only in a grocer's counter but already consumed. --Joby

Under the old system, an inspector who saw a serious problem could actually stop the line and fix it. Under the new system, inspectors feel they have almost no authority to do that. Some suggest that that the laws are there, they are just not being carried out and that the USDA is afraid to take on these major meat companies. --Lea

Consumer groups and many members of Congress have been arguing for years that the USDA needs enhanced powers of enforcement. Currently, a repeat violation results in a series of warning letters that give companies a deadline for coming up w/proposed fixes. In the worst case, the USDA can only withdrawl its inspectors which results in closing the plant temporarily. That is not often done. --Joby

I think you'll see on our Dateline piece tonight the frustration that inspectors feel when they know there are serious problems, but they feel they can't do anything about them. --Lea

Vienna, VA: I heard that it's possible to rinse meat with an acid solution, i.e. vinegar and water, that would help kill pathogens yet is harmless to consumers. Is this something that the USDA is looking into?

Isn't this e-coli strain a mutant one, infected by a virus that changed it's dna?

Joby Warrick and Lea Thompson: Acid rinses are one of several new technologies that have been developed to kill microbes at the processing plant. Some other include chlorine rinses, something called "steam pasteurization." The point while these technologies are reducing pathogen counts, the industry concedes they are not anywhere close to 100 percent effective. The only things that kill ALL germs are cooking and irradiation which at the moment is highly controversial. --Joby

Regarding E Coli, it's a new organism first identified in the early 80's. Generic E Coli is completely benign, but this microbe somehow mutated to acquire these lethal properties. --Joby

Both the industry and the government have to stay on top of this. Who knows what is around the bend. --Lea

Ottawa, Canada: From my experience as the father of a child who has permanent kidney damage from a bout of e.coli O157:H7 in 1995, I would like to point out that the majority of cases are not associated with outbreaks. Your own CDC has documented that there only need to be as few a 10 bacteria for E.coli O157:H7 to cause an infection. Cross contamination during meat handling becomes a very real concern at these low levels. This evil bacteria must be addressed at the source (the cow!) and the blame of infection must not be put on the last person to handle the product. That person could be a child in a grocery store.

Joby Warrick and Lea Thompson: I'm sorry to hear about your child. You of course are right. Most cases come individually and unfortunately it is only the very sick that we hear about. It doesn't take much bad E Coli to make you sick. --Lea

The USDA is developing a "farm to table" strategy to try to address the various sources of E Coli and other pathogens. One thing that has emerged so far is we know very little about the microbe. On the production end, we are not sure how it spreads or how cows become infected in the first place (among herds). Considerable effort is devoted currently to developing remedies that can be applied on the farm. --Joby

A number of you have asked us whether we eat meat, whether we've changed our eating habits and whether we practice what we preach. Joby and I have covered meat for a long time and I think it's fair to say that we are pretty careful. One thing I learned a long time ago is that you don't take the steak to the barbecue grill on the plate and then after the meat is cooked, put it back on that same plate to bring it back into the house. --Lea

Lombard, Illinois: What are the early symptoms of E-Coli illness? At what point should you determine that it is not a "routine" bout with diarrhea?

Joby Warrick and Lea Thompson: The early symptoms feel like the flu and that's what most people think it is. --Lea

Severe vomiting, painful diarrhea and often bloody diarrhea which is caused by E Coli's assault on blood vessels in the intestines. About 5 percent of victims develop a complication that can shut down the kidneys and other organs. Young children and the elderly are particularly suspectible to that complication known as "HUS." --Joby

Cincinnati, Oh: How can we help? Who can we contact to tell the government we want this to get a higher priority and give the inspectors the authority to quickly shut down problem plants.

Joby Warrick and Lea Thompson: Good question Ohio. Last year, legislation was debated that would have increased the USDA's ability to respond when it finds plants that are having trouble controlling their process. That legislation was narrowly defeated as it had been for 3 previous sessions. The sponsors say they are going to try again this year. You might want to give your local lawmaker a call. --Joby

You might also ask your favorite restauranteur what he/she does to make sure the meat is safe. Ask if he/she requires extra testing from the plant. Ask about the restaurant's food handing procedures. --Lea

This is a critical moment in the nation's food inspection system because decisions will be made in the next few years about whether to expand current testing for microbes or perhaps eliminate testing entirely as some have proposed. --Joby

Vienna, VA: Norman Rockwell would probably have to paint his beloved Thanksgiving turkey with a meat thermometer sticking out of it, if he were creating it today. Isn't it ironic that the the very symbols of prosperity and celebration in our culture, turkeys and big, juicy steaks and burgers, may be carrying a ticking time bomb for consumers who eat them. I have 4 children and this story makes me feel sick. I don't think people, not even those in the food industry, take this issue of food safety seriously enough. Yet...

Joby Warrick and Lea Thompson: Thanks for joining us today. Be sure to watch Dateline tonight, a special edition at 8 pm EDT/7 CST. And also look for the 2nd part of the Post's "Modern Meat" series in tomorrow's paper. --Lea and Joby

washingtonpost.com:

That was our last question today. Thanks to Joby Warrick and Lea Thompson, and to everyone who joined us.