America At War:
Racial Profiling
With James Zogby
Founder and President
Arab American Institute
Friday, Jan. 4, 2002; Noon EST

A Secret Service agent of Arab descent was kicked off an American Airlines flight at Baltimore-Washington International Airport on Christmas day. The airline denies the agent's ethnicity played a part in the decision. The case is only one of many complaints filed by Arab-Americans who believe they have been targeted by airport and airline security since the Sept. 11 attacks.

James Zogby, founder and president of the Arab American Institute, was online to discuss ethnic profiling in the wake of Sept. 11.

The Washington, D.C.-based Arab American Institite was founded in 1985 to serve as "the political and policy research arm of the Arab American community."

A transcript follows.

Editor's Note: Washingtonpost.com moderators retain editorial control over Live Online discussions and choose the most relevant questions for guests and hosts; guests and hosts can decline to answer questions.

Sterling, Va.: James, I don't know what disgusted me more -- the fact that the agent got mistreated on the AA plane or how AA is now claiming that the forms the agents filled out were not filled out right. Insult to injury.

Another thing is that some Americans think profiling is necessary but they don't realize that Arabs and/or Muslims have different ethnicities and nationalities (case in point -- Richard Reid from Sri Lanka/Jamaica/London). Profiling is a cheap fix and not the answer.

James Zogby: First point, what troubles me most about the episode is the fact that the American Airlines pilot did not do the logical things, which is call White House. His stubbornness and refusal to call secret Service and verify the agent's identity is the best evidence that American Airlines made a mistake. They ought to admit a mistake was made and move on.

The issue of profiling is often misunderstood. There is legitimate profiling that can be an effective tool in law enforcement and then there is just out and out discrimination. Legitimate profiling is when law enforcement constructs out of many characteristics a "profile" of individuals who require scrutiny. This may or may not include and ethnic characteristic as one of many characteristics that comprise the overall profile. Bad profiling or discrimination is when we simply use the racial or ethnic characteristic and nothing else. That is what appeared to have happened in this instance.

Chicago, Ill.: Sir,

Isn't true that the airline industry has sort of fallen victim to the good old catch 22 cliche! If they scrutinize they will be accused of profiling, if they get laxed they will risk the lives of their passengers and crew members. I say it is still better to be safe than be sorry. What say you?

James Zogby: FAA has in place guidelines and has authorized the use of a computerized profile, which can be an effective tool in providing security. Additionally the FAA has in place a series of security procedures that include x-rays, baggage check, metal detectors, etc. - all of which enhance security. Finally the FAA has implemented two recommendations that should have been implemented in the last decade, and if they had been in place would have deterred the tragic terrorist attacks of Sept. 11. That is the securing of the pilot's cabin and the presence of Sky Marshals on selected flights. All of these practices combined provide for the security of the passengers and the safety of the flight. Subjective desriminatory targeting of individual passengers is therefore unnecessary and actually bad law enforcement.

Alexandria, Va.: Young Moslem males are statistically more likely to hijack airplanes than other groups, and so are more in need of being searched than are members of other groups.

If using such profiling had stopped the Moslem fanatic Richard Reid from boarding an airplane, wouldn't everyone, including fellow Moslem passengers that he tried to kill, have been better off?

James Zogby:
The simple fact is that is all the procedures in place are used and used effectively there is no need to target individual passengers beyond the targeting provided for in accepted procedures. In any case, Richard Reid proved the point of the ineffectiveness of racial profiling. He is not Arab and there would have been no way of identifying him as a convert to any religion. Therefore, he would have gone under the radar screen in any case. How would we have identified Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols?

Washington, D.C.: Thanks for agreeing to host this chat. As are all Americans, I am concerned about security. Having spent quite a bit of time in Israel, though, I worry that a fixation on security might turn us into the type of society that Israelis live in -- paranoia, suspicion and police action reign supreme. I love our Bill of Rights. My question for you is how do we protect ourselves and not become a police state?

James Zogby: I am confident that despite the fact that there is fear and justified concern we will never become a police state. We have at times in our history violated fundamental constitutional rights and gone down the dangerous road of repression, but at the end of the day, whether through the courts or new legislation or grass roots protest, we always come back. We are a freedom loving people whose freedoms are enshrined in our founding documents, and though we might stray, we always come back to our core values.

Remember -- we celebrate Martin Luther King's day, not J. Edgar Hoovers.

New Delhi, India: The lives of all the passengers on a plane are at stack and I think all legitimate passengers (i.e. not terrorists) should be agreeable to being searched. Arabs hijacked the planes on 9/11 and will, of course, be more scrutinized than others. Arabs should be willing to put up with the extra hassle. The Secret Service Agent who was asked to disembark the plane by the pilot should be reprimanded for complaining and filing a lawsuit. If that were me that was asked to leave the plane because someone was scared of me then I would have gladly gotten off and taken the next plane.

Life isn't the same as it was before 9/11 and we all, including Arabs, have to put up with the extra hassle. Do you think Arabs have the right to complain?

James Zogby: Let me just focus for a minute on the Secret Service agent's case.

His ID was verified by three separate law enforcement officials before he boarded the plane. He was on the plane ready to depart when that particular flight was cancelled because of mechanical problems. He was sent with all the other passengers to a different flight. It was here that he ran into a problem with a pilot who chose to discriminate against him and was stubborn about it by exceeding the accepted procedures that were in place. And please note that what is most infuriating about the pilots behavior was his refusal for an hour and a half to call White House or Secret service to verify the agent's identity, indicating a clear lack of good judgement and good will on the part of the pilot. Finally, think about this for a minute - they did give the agent his gun, ID and badge back even though they denied him the right to fly. What does this suggest to you other then sheer stupidity? Here it was, they thought he was not a real Secret Service agent -- in other words a phony with a gun and a fake badge and ID travelling from Washington to Texas where the President was -- and they just let him go. They wouldn't call the White House to inform them that they had a suspicious character with a gun, and ID claiming to be an agent. The behavior of the pilot is so bizarre that it is, as I have said, infuriating.

Of course Arab American's understand the need for increased scrutiny and we too want increased security, but outright discrimination will accomplish neither objective and are just plain wrong.

Silver Spring, Md.: Mr. Zogby
Have you seen any pictures on Mr. Reed? Does he look British to you?

James Zogby: No, but he also doesn't look Arab to me. In any case can you tell me what looking British means? And what does looking Arab mean? In fact if you look at the range facial characteristics that comprise the gene pool of "Arabs" you have everything from very African looking, very European looking and very Asia looking individuals. Point is - about 50 - 60 percent of Americans look Arab. You're biased perspective about what an Arab might look like is not based on the reality of who we are. We are not a stereotypical group, we are not a narrowly defined race, but we are a melting pot of many ethinicities and, I might add, we are not bad looking either. My kids are quite gorgeous.

Washington, D.C.: Mr. Zogby,

Thank you for agreeing to be a part of the online chat at the Washington Post. I think in this climate it is helpful to all Americans to hear as many points of view, particularly the Arab American one. I have two questions. The first one pertains to the climate in the country now, vis a vis talk show hosts, columnists, etc… all of which make it seem like Arab Americans are more or less fair game for whatever label people choose. Are you surprised at the vehemence with which some well-known and reputable intellectuals and journalists have unabashedly laid out their anti-Islamic sentiments?

Second question, on a recent call in show on C-SPAN, a white American businessman called in to say that because he frequently flies one-way he is always singled out for questioning and searched by security at airports. His opinion was that yes, he thinks it is a violation, but it is the price he has to pay, and he is willing to pay it. He also thought that people of Middle Eastern descent should feel similarly. How do you respond?

James Zogby: First of all, I don't consider many of the journalists you described as reputable. Some of the individuals in question are narrow-minded bigots with big vocabularies. I have read their writings, what they suggest to me is a kind of intellectualized prejudice that only appears in print because unfortunately they have contracts that guarantee that their silliness will appear.

The FAA profile provides for screening of passengers who fly one way, passengers who pay cash and passengers who purchase tickets the day before and that is as it should be. That is not a discriminatory ethnic or racial based profile. What troubles me and ought to trouble you is that many of the 19 hijackers fit that profile irrespective of their race or religion and yet were not pulled aside for special scrutiny. They should have been. Their ethnicity was not the question, their behavior was.

Washington, D.C.: It's dissapointing to see this case being used as an argument against profiling. If the claims that forms were incorrectly filled out -- and I've yet to read a refuttal of that -- then the agent is to be reprimanded, not the pilot. While I cringe at the idea of racial profiling, I cringe even more at someone in the Secret Service officer's role acting idignant when he tries to board an aircraft, with a gun, and expects the pilot to overlook his lax treatment of security forms and take extreme measures (the pilot calling the White House?!) to compensate for the agent's negligence. If you want to build sympathy for individuals suffering because of racial profiling -- and I think that's a worthwhile endeavor -- then this is NOT the case to be taking up. Response?

James Zogby: If the pilot had called the While House as he should have then we would not be discussing this issue. Remember, the agent was onboard an American Airline's flight having had his ID scrutinized and approved by three separate law enforcement individuals. It was only when his original flight was cancelled for mechanical failure and he and the other passengers were asked to board another flight that the problems occurred. In any case, as his lawyers stated yesterday, the agent maintains that filled out the forms properly, that he was well behaved and that he was clearly wronged by an abusive pilot. Think about it for a minute - here we are debating two individuals behavior -- a pilot, for whom we should have respect, and a Secret Service agent who was assigned to the President's detail, a position only given to the cream of the cream of the Secret Service. The agent in question has one of the most security conscience positions in the entire United States government and is an individual willing to lay his life down to protect the President. The fact that so many are unwilling to believe him, but willing to believe the pilot suggests a degree of prejudice. In most other cases I am sure that the word of a Secret Service agent would be believed. How would this discussion be going had the pilot be an Arab American and the Secret Service be a non-Arab.

Bristol, R.I.: I think we have to determine when racial profiling makes sense and when it is discriminatory. Racial profiling in the wake of Sept. 11 makes sense. Arab-Americans are right to feel offended perhaps, but millions and millions of more Americans would feel less secure if it weren't done.

This particular Secret Service agent was Arab-American, bungled the forms that would allow him to carry a weapon, stated he was going to the President's ranch, and became abusive. Are you telling me the pilot didn't exercise common sense?

If you are, then you do not have a big picture of the problem.

James Zogby: Yes.

Common sense in that circumstance would have meant not holding him for an hour and a half without calling the White House and Secret Service and saying to them, "I think I have an abusive fraud here with a gun, a fake ID and a fake badge," and then giving him the gun, ID and badge back and telling him to go on his way. How stupid is that. The pilot really bungled this situation badly. He and American Airlines ought to fess up and get over it. They really blew this one. And the fact that you would believe somebody so stupid before you would believe a member of the Secret Service simply because of his ethnicity is very troubling to me.

Washington, D.C.: The enhanced security procedures in place with regard to Arabs (which some might call "ethnic profiling") aren't only about looks. If it were, airlines would be refusing to fly with Greeks, Italians, Spaniards, and anyone else with a Mediterranean look. But most MUSLIMS (and I mean most -- Mr. Reid notwithstanding) have names that are familiar as muslim names.

James Zogby: The fact is that the FAA procedures in place do not provide for ethnic, racial or religious discrimination. It is only when individual pilots or ground crew exceed FAA regulations and have engaged in a kind of freelancing vigilantism that we have a problem. Please note, the existing authorized FAA Department of Transportation guidelines do not provide for racial or ethnic profiling because these officials know that it is ineffective law enforcement and is against the law.

Arlington, Va: You ask "How would this discussion be going had the pilot be an Arab American and the Secret Service be a non-Arab?" Christopher Caldwell had the perfect answer to this yesterday -- if the guy's name was John Smith he would have been kept off the plane AND you wouldn't have heard about it -- because John Smith presumably wouldn't have an ethnic lobby to scream about this being "discrimination."

James Zogby: Christopher Caldwell is wrong. The reason we are talking about this is because the pilot made a dumb mistake. Thank God in this instance that there is an ethnic lobby to point out the fact that discrimination exists, was in evidence in this case and caused harm to an individual who was charged with the security of the President of the United States of America. Mr. Caldwell is establishing a fiction that has not occurred and would not occur and he know it.

I repeat my earlier concern - the best evidence of the pilot's ill will was the fact that although he alleges that he did not believe that the individual who had a gun, a badge, and ID and a government issued ticket was a real Secret Service agent, he gave him all of the above back and sent him on his way -- presumably to do harm to the President of the United States. How could the pilot have been so dumb to have a guy that he thinks was a fake with a gun, a badge and an ID and not call the White House to report it?

washingtonpost.com:

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