John Hoven's son, Niels, was reading restaurant menus and doing arithmetic by the age of 3. But when Niels entered Maryland public schools, Hoven found teachers were more apt to slow his son down than challenge him further.

Hoven has been bedeviling educators ever since. Co-president of the Gifted and Talented Association of Montgomery County, Md., since 1991, he works to convince schools to make curriculum changes and raise academic standards.

His story was explored in Class Struggle, a column by Post writer Jay Mathews, which appeared Sunday in The Washington Post Magazine.

Hoven answered questions about how to challenge gifted children at home and in school. Read the transcript.

www.washingtonpost.com: Welcome to our new weekly live discussion on education and parenting. We already have many questions, so we will get started. But first, a hello from John Hoven.

York, PA: Mr. Hoven, I really want to do what is best for my child. However, I feel as though I am banging my head against a brick wall when dealing with the school district. My child is in the fifth grade and must complete the fifth grade curriculum while attending and completing the work for his 3 gifted pull-out classes - seminar, math and literature - which only meet 1-6 days, and which do not compliment the fifth grade curriculum. My son is frustrated and on occasion overwhelemed with the workload. Short of moving out of this district, what should I do to help him - advocate for him?

Thank you for your consideration.

John Hoven: I think the place to begin is by using this as an opportunity to coach your child in time management skills. Begin with the obvious--when you get home from school, don't start off with a one-hour snack in front of the television. Then learn more efficient work strategies. (Sit next to your child doing homework, observe, and then coach.) Finally, make astute choices--if the regular work is busy work, cut corners--grades don't really matter much until children enter high school.

Falls Church, Virginia: What are the steps a parent should take to get more individualized attention-options for a child? My son attended the JHU-IAAY camp last summer and has been bored in his math class this year. The test to be admitted to the camp indicated that he was scoring in the 82 percentile of 4th graders when he took the test in 2nd grade. My contacts with the school administration have been fruitless thus far. The response has been that he's not displaying symptoms of boredom. He's a very low-key, agreeable child and understands that behavior like that is inappropriate in a school setting. Do I encourage him to "act out" to indicate his boredom? Surely, there's a better way.

John Hoven: First, a cue to other parents--schools do respond to bored children, so if that if your child's experience, let your school know (with a constructive proposal for change).

With math, the most effective strategy is to demonstrate that your child already knows what they're planning to teach him. Show them the JHU math homework he's done, ask them to assess him on the math skills they're proposing. Once that's done, and everyone agrees he already knows what they're planning to teach, it's much easier to talk about alternatives.

Silver Spring, MD: How can I get my child's newly graduated but inexperienced teacher to challenge a large 4-5 combination class, especially in Science -which they don't seem to do-and to share the special but secret curriclum with parents. I am scared to offend and we have no curriculum or MSPAP nights. My child is bored and not challenged enough. Also the class is too big and grouped with children at different emotional and social levels. Thanks

John Hoven: A 4-5 combination class can be a great opportunity for a gifted 4th grader, and a real problem for a gifted 5th grader. Curriculum isn't secret. In Montgomery County, it's available for inspection at the professional library at district headquarters, open Saturday mornings. It should also be offered to any parent who wants to see at the local school. Schools are generally eager to put own programs for parents discussion curriculum or testing; for that, confer with your PTA leadership to gauge the best way to bring it up.

And do advocate for appropriate grouping.

Bethesda, Maryland: My son tested as G-T in 3rd grade but we were told that he was not recommended for magnet school placement since he has organizational difficulties due to ADHD. What should we expect from the public school system in 4th grade -and beyond- to address his capabilities? -He will participate in Saturday Discoveries at Mo.College later in the school year, but that was something we found out about on our own.-

John Hoven: The magnets and highly gifted centers are accustomed to working with students with various learning disabilities. It's really a judgment call for you--the homework load is significantly greater in these programs, so students must learn effective time management skills to be comfortable in them. If you don't see that as an obstacle, then tell your principal you went your child tested for the program, and appeal to the Office of Enriched & Innovative Instruction if that doesn't work.

In Montgomery County, this is the time that recommendations for 3d grader testing into the Highly Gifted Centers are being made. If you haven't heard, ask.

Austin, TX: I was a gifted child growing up in Fairfax County. I was bused to an excellent "center-based" county program for gifted students in grades 4-6. Children were encouraged to work at their own rates and to pursue special interests. For those three years, I thrived and learned. During all the other years -all completed in "excellent" Fairfax county public schools-, I believe that at least 98% of my school time was just wasted time. I eventually went on to thrive in college, but I want to provide a better experience and more opportunities for joyful learning for my son.

My husband and I are currently planning to homeschool our son, now 2. We do have some doubts about this approach - he won't be able to participate in any of the school programs we enjoyed, like musicals, sports, jazz band, etc.

Do you think homeschooling is the best option overall, or do you think that there can be greater benefits to enrolling in public school and trying to convince teachers and-or administrators to work with exceptional children?

John Hoven: There is a very active, thriving homeschooling community in the Washington metropolitan area, many of them for reasons like yours. They organize extracurricula and social activities, and enjoy the advantage of going on field trips while most children are in school.

On the other hand, there are also extraordinary opportunities for gifted students in the public schools. (In Montgomery County, for roughly the top 2 percent beginning in 4th grade.) So also search those out, and even consider floating back and forth between homeschooling and public school.

Churchville, PA (surburb of Philadelphia): Dear Mr. Hoven,
I'm fortunate enough to live in PA, where gifted education is mandated by state law. However, how do I convince school board members that supporting gifted education is the right thing to do? In a district where all of the children are bright, if not believed to be gifted, it is politically incorrect to support gifted programming because not all children participate. All discussions with the school board and administration seem to filter down to what is mandated by law. I want to go beyond the threat of a law suit and address the needs of gifted students. How do I do that?

John Hoven: Gifted mandates are only the starting point for negotiating for appropriate instruction. As you have noted, the opponents of gifted education use it as a device to deny appropriate instruction: "We're doing everything the law requires."

Advocacy occurs at various levels: for your own child, for change in your own school, or at the level of the school district. Connect up with other parents to learn the best advocacy opportunities. In Montgomery County, join GTA's email discussion forum by sending an email request to John Hoven .

Gaithersburg, Maryland: We have found that our 8th grader in the Montgomery County system is getting quite challenging assignments -he stayed up all night working on his science project for today's science fair-. Several of his classes are grouped into skill groups, and he seems to be getting lots of stimulation from the more difficult assignments he is given. However, I worry about the teachers getting burnt out trying to teach to several levels in each class. Have the teachers been heard from re: this requirement to teach to several levels within each class?

John Hoven: Unfortunately, the teachers grumble about this privately. It is indeed a significant added burden to teach several levels of students in the same class. Some principals ease the burden by assigning students to homerooms so that teachers have only a low group and a middle group, for example--rather than a random sample of the entire ability instruction. Curriculum that is artfully designed for teaching heterogeneous groups would also ease the burden, but there is very little of that around.

Great Falls, VA: My third grade daughter is very bright but
did not qualify for the Gifted and Talented
School Center. She seems to be bored in
school and is underachieving. Her grades are
very good but she has stopped asking
questions and seems to want to blend in with
her peers. She is very quiet and the teacher
has told me she thinks my daughter is a
"passive" learner and not happy in school.
What can I do to motivate-chall

John Hoven: By the way, my email address (for private queries, or to join the GTA email forum) is jhoven@erols.com.

Quiet, gifted, socially engaged children are at high risk for underachievement. Summer programs, say at John Hopkins Center for Talented Youth, are a partial remedy. But things really do need to change in school for children like that. I'd confer with other parents in your school (whose concerns are likely to resonate with your), decide what you want your school to do for these kids, and then approach your principal.

Chevy Chase: I just want to say that I think it's tragic that a child would miss the opportunity to participate in a gifted and talented program because he or she didn't have good organizational skills. Most of the brilliant people I know have ADD...don't get me started on why it should be considered a different way of thinking rather than a disorder. Keeping an ADD child out of a G&T program is a DISGRACE and says that time management is more important that creativivity, analytical ability, etc. Has our society become so obsessed with efficiency that we value it over true talent, even among our youngest members?? How incredibly incredibly sad.

John Hoven: Absolutely right.

And by the way, hardly any of the other kids coming into a selective gifted program for the first time have any organizational skills, either. It's the first time they've been challenged, so it's a first time learning experience for them, too.

Bethesda MD: Good morning Mr. Hoven,

The public school systems in this country have an obligation to educate all children, regardless of their intelligence, aptitude, and familial support. Unfortunately, this spectrum of needs pares the curriculum down to a point which helps the majority of students, often hurting the most advanced and the most needy. Why would you expect the government to cater to your child's needs? If you're so concerned about your gifted child's education, why not dip into your pocket and send him-her to a private school? It never ceases to amaze me that even the most concerned -and often well-to-do- parents will spend 50K on a car but flip out at the prospect of paying 10K for a good education.

John Hoven: Many parents do give up on the public schools and incur the cost of private school. Parents at the lower-income end of Montgomeery County where I live sometimes give up and move to the upper-income end.

But gifted students in Montgomery County are a third of the student body. It is outrageous that school administrators can say we have an obligation to educate "all" children, so that's why we have a practice of indifference and neglect toward gifted students.

www.washingtonpost.com: We're a little more than half way through our chat. Feel free to keep sending questions.

www.washingtonpost.com: We're a little more than half way through our chat. Feel free to keep sending questions.

Roanoke VA: John, we started homeschooling our third son in October after total frustration with the local school district personnel in planning-executing appropriate curriculum accomodations to cope with his phenomenal academic gifts. We were sad to bail out of the system;please give us some practical reflections. What are the best first steps to organize parents to address the needs of our kids? We have not worked together and our district's programming shows it. Thanks

John Hoven: There isn't much a classroom teacher can realistically do for a single child with phenomenal academic gifts. Those children need to be pulled together from a number of schools to form a teachable group. The alternative I used with my children (very effectively with one, less so with the other) was independent study. If there are 2 or 3 children who can work together, I think that could be effective and fun. Distance learning through the internet may be another option.

The best advocacy strategy I stumbled on in Montgomery County was the email discussion forum. It's an easy, tremendously effecative way to build consensus. Send me an email at jhoven@erols.com and I'll explain the simple details.

Plano, Texas: How would you recommend dealing with teachers and principals at Catholic schools that are more likely to say they cannot meet the needs of your children than make changes in the classroom to accommodate gifted children? -In other words, they would have us go to a different school.- Are there strategies I might want to consider? It just feels like such a cop-out to make the argument that the school cannot be all things to all people.

John Hoven: I'm not familiar with the culture of Catholic schools, but I'll go out on a limb--my understanding is that they have a stellar reputation for college prep of average and below-average students, but are resistant to differentiation. I would start by talking to parents of other gifted students (your child can tell you who they are if you don't know), and come up with a strategy that you think would be practical, effective, and palatable to the culture. Then think about who to sell it to first--a teacher, an administrator?

Silver Spring, MD: How can I challenge my son who is in 6th Grade Montgomery County Public School System.
Although he deserved to be, but was not selected by the shortsighted committee and education board in the Takoma Park magnet program. The Magnet Program is a good program but is good only for the selected lucky 100 students out of approx 700 eligible students in the county. Right now in his school the regular G&T program in the middle school is not able to challenge him and is hurting his future development. The school can not provide adequate resources or environment for his level. As a parent, what we can do enhance his development and compensate for what he is missing by not going to the magnet program. Thanks

John Hoven: The Takoma Park magnet program is math-science-computer science. Mathematics is the easiest subject to compensate for at home. Get a good textbook (I like UCSMP Transition Math, Algebra, etc.) and coach your child in independent study. Make sure he is in an appropriate math placement in school. Seriously consider the Johns Hopkins summer math program. The next big opportunity is the Blair High School math-science magnet, and the best way to open that door is through extraordinary math skills.

Washington, DC: Keep up the good work, Mr. Hoven.

My most traumatic childhood memory is from the first part of first grade, when my so-called "inability to perform simple tasks" landed me with an autism diagnosis. It took months-and a couple of psychologists-for my parents to convince the school that I needed to be in the advanced section, not the slow section. I understand that this different=dumb mindset was fairly common.

Of course, my best childhood memories are from that advanced section in the primary grades. The program was that in return for our being able to engage in independent study when the rest of the class had to listen to the teacher, we had to spend time helping those with difficulties. That was my favorite part of the day, and I think we had more access to what our friends were having problems with, as we had just recently mastered the same skills.

My question: is misdiagnosis of gifted children seem to be in remission, and do most gifted and talented programs have tutoring requirements?

John Hoven: I think my district (Montgomery County, MD) does a good job of identifying gifted students, but I hear that's not at all the case elsewhere. On the other hand, the big omission in gifted education is not the failure to identify but the failure to do anything meaningful with the students who have been identified.

Tutoring requirements for gifted children these days are usually implicit in the requirement that cooperative learning groups must always be heterogeneous in abilities. That denies gifted students the opportunity to learn, and denies low-achiever the opportunity to learn leadership and responsibility.

Rockville, MD: I graduated from Richard Montgomery's International Baccalaureate program in 1993. Prior to attending the IB program I was enrolled in the the "honors" curriculum in the MCPS elementary and middle school programs, which were simply much too easy. Are you in favor of promoting a program similar to the University of Washington's in Seattle and Cal State LA's advanced student placement programs where gifted & talented students can earn their undergraduate degree while still in high school?

John Hoven: I've never heard of these opportunities to earn an undergraduate college degree while in high school. I think opportunities to take one, several, or many college-level courses in high school should be expanded. Advanced Placement courses are an excellent vehicle for that, and college distant learning opportunities are starting to become broadly available.

Opportunities to take high-school level courses in middle school are still hardly available. We're thinking about making that our next advocacy goal in Montgomery County--i.e., middle school honors courses that prepare gifted students to take a spectrum of AP courses beginning in 10th grade.

Potomac MD: I know we all think our children are gifted, but mine truly is. He just turned 2 a few months ago and knows all his letters, can count to 20 -backwards too- and has a vocabulary that amazes people wherever we go. My question -and concern- is this: I'm worried that at the rate he is going he will be too advanced by the time he starts 1st grade. Any advice? Should we try to slow the pace? I really don't want him to be freakish.

John Hoven: Don't slow the pace. He's not freakish. This is a big, big world and there are a lot of very smart people in it. Parents who allow bright preschoolers to learn all they can learn must, however, expect a long road of advocacy once the child enters school. Get connected with other parents and learn how to do this.

Middleton, Wisoconsin: Hi. You recommended the folks from York PA encourage good study habits to deal with regular currciculum and gifted curriculum work. Why would we expect gifted kids to do double work?

John Hoven: Gifted students need to learn time management skills because they're going to be engaged in challenging endeavors. So I suggest looking on this as an opportunity. Busy work is low-priority, so give it the time and attention it deserves--i.e., hardly any. If his teacher complains about negligent work on the regular assignments, or if your child rebels, then perhaps you have to resolve the issue in the school. But advocates have to pick your battles, and it might (or might not) be easier to work around this one.

Rockville, MD: Re: The poster writing about sending one's child to private school -- private schools don't necessarily have the resources to handle execptionally gifted children, either.

My child attended a small private school with great student-teacher ratios and, hard as they tried, they couldn't meet our child's needs. We tried our neighborhood public school and got nowhere fast. Our child now attends one of the 4th-5th Center programs, received radical math acceleration, and has friends, intellectual peers and self-esteem. Our child still participates in extra-curriculars through our neighborhood, so those relationships are maintained.

Montgomery County is lucky to have these programs -- I know people around the country who would give eye teeth for these resources.

I have found the MCPS EII and Cluster staff very supportive in addressing concerns about placement and ensuring a smooth transition.

What are your feelings about having children commute cross-county for the middle school and high school programs? Is it worth the distancing from community relationships and the time commitment?

John Hoven: For high school, the Blair math-science-computer science magnet and Richard Montgomery International Baccalaureate are worth almost any length of commute. (Kids sleep or do homework on the bus.) For middle school, it's a bit more of a judgment call, but the Eastern and Takoma middle school magnets are both extraordinarily wonderful.

And for private schools, I've heard often--these vary greatly in their responsiveness to gifted students. Shop.

Forest Heights Md: Hello kind Sir, My daughter was in a charter school last year. Many of her classes were accepted by the scool board in Washington D.C. but upon moving to the state of Maryland her classes were not accepted. In fact she is now taking classes below the grade level of all of her classes she took last year. She received passing grade in Washington D.C. It is very frustrating to her and I. Not only that but the county has decided to apply functional testing to all of the basic classes. She must pass all of these test before being allowed to take the most basic class. The children sit in a class,40 children, until test results come back. The class started in September but the results will not be back until Feburary. I consider this cruel and unusuall punishment to the child who has already taken Algebra, I,II in a state that gave them a passing grade. Do you think that I'm being a bit to furious at this arrangement? I think the children fill like they are being wharehoused for some mad persons experiment. Learning is low and boredom is at an all time high. I will take any suggestion you have.

John Hoven: OUCH.

You might try asking for independent study. The deal I struck for my kids (in math) was that they would sit in class doing their own work. If the class was doing something that was particularly interesting, or something the teacher thought they needed to participate in, they would participate. Otherwise, they got to work on their own. You will probably have to also agree to have your child take the regular exams with the class. But she should not have to do any homework or participate routinely in the class.

And hope that February comes soon.

Rockville, MD: On-Line resources for parents of GT kids:

www.hoagiesgifted.org
www.tagfam.org
www.gtworld.org

These will get you to research, chat forums, advocacy strategies, etc. They have been a lifesaver for us!

John Hoven: Great tip. There are others, too--search on gifted education on www.google.com

Webster, Texas: What do you suggest for a gifted middle school student who is practically flunking out of school? His grade typically read 100, 0, 100, 0, 70--30 late-, etc. What avenues should we explore?

John Hoven: I think you should explore learning disabilities. One of the symptoms is organizational difficulties. In any event, getting plugged into that network (parents of gifted learning disabled students, or psychologists who work with gifted students) seems a likely lead to some practical advice.

Boredom is another possibility.

Kensington, Maryland: John, I have found that most educational software is more entertainment than education and thus not worthwhile for my GT 3rd grader. We are using the Hopkins-Stanford EPGY Math CD and find it to be the exception - ie, it is very strong on education, while still using a game to encourage usage. It's most important feature is that it is self-paced, so kids find their comfort zone and advance gradually and automatically. Are there any strong commercial CD's that you recommend for the GT community.

John Hoven: I've heard good things about this program also. To find out about it, search for Johns Hopkins CTY or IAAY. They also have a writing tutorial that I've heard good things about.

I've just learned about a series of educational CDs that the Singapore school system has adopted, or developed, for elementary schools with great enthusiasm. Don't know anything more about them yet, and--sorry--don't know the US market for educational CDs and software at all.

www.washingtonpost.com: Thanks for all your intelligent questions, and sorry we didn't get to all of them. John Hoven invites to send him questions by email at jhoven@erols.com.
I hope you all join us every Wednesday at 1 p.m. Next week, we have as our guest Heidi Murkoff, co-author of the "What to Expect When You're Expecting," "What to Expect the Toddler Years," series of parenting guides. She'll answer questions about dealing with toddler during the holidays, and anything else that comes up. Thank you!

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