Hosted by Linton Weeks
Washington Post Staff Writer

Thank you for visiting "The Navigator – Live." Today's chat ended at 3 p.m. EDT.

"Enough Is Enough" is a non-profit organization dedicated to stopping illegal pornography and making the Internet a safe place for children. The group's marketing and communications director, Donna Rice Hughes, has written "Kids Online: Protecting Your Children in Cyberspace." She was online and answered questions such as: Can you really provide safeguards to keep children from viewing adult content? Which filters work and which ones don't? When does vigilance become censorship? To see her answers, read on.

"The Navigator – Live" appears each Thursday from 2 p.m. to 3 p.m. Eastern time. It's a live, moderated discussion offering washingtonpost.com users the chance to talk directly to intriguing and sometimes unusual guests who are shaping the digital world. "The Navigator" appears in The Washington Post print edition every Thursday. You can read past columns by following this link.

Linton Weeks: Greetings. We welcome our guest today, Donna Rice Hughes. Hello Donna. Thanks for joining us. The one request that Donna made was that we not ask questions about her much-publicized liaison with presidential candidate Gary Hart in 1987. Enough, she said, is enough. Now for our first question.

Linton Weeks: Please tell us about your new book. Why did you write it?

Donna Rice Hughes: I was approached by my publisher to put into an easy-to-understand book my four and half years experience pioneering Internet safety for children. Even though there have been other books written on this issue, my goal was to assemble the first one-stop shopping resource for both computer literate and computer illiterate adults. The book balances the important benefits the Internet offers to children and the dangerous risk children are faced with when they have unrestricted Internet access. The book begins with Internet basics, Internet 101, which are essential for parents to understand so that they can be empowered to implement safety rules and software tools surrounding their children's computer use. The book is designed to help parents, teachers, librarians and other adults ensure that children's Internet access is both safe and rewarding at home, school and at the library.

Linton Weeks: What exactly is Enough Is Enough? How many members do you have? How long has the group existed? What has it accomplished?

Donna Rice Hughes: Enough Is Enough is a national non-profit public awareness organization whose mission is to make the Internet safe for children. The group has existed about six years. I've been on staff for five years and pioneered the Internet safety issue. When I started, the mission was to deal with illegal ponography. After tremendous success in raising awareness of Internet safety for children, the organization changed its two years later solely dealing with Internet safety.

Linton Weeks: In your book you suggest that parents educate themselves about cyberspace. How have you done that?

Donna Rice Hughes: I've given over 1,500 media interviews which probably the most powerful way to reach people, and encourage adults about computers. Parents are the first line of defense to protect their children. I'm the Vice President of Marketing for Enough Is Enough.

Bethesda, MD: Ms. Hughes, what do you think of today's proceedings in the House of Representatives? Do you feel like Kenneth Starr has acted in a responsible manner? Do you believe that his report and the evidence should have been released to the public over the Internet?

Donna Rice Hughes: I do believe Kenneth Starr and the Office of the Special Prosecutor have done the job they were assigned to do by the Attorney General of the United States. It was his job to provide a thorough report to the Congress, which he did. He did alert The Congress there was material that should be treated discreetly and it was the determination of Congress to release the report in its entirety to the media. I think it's important not to demonize the Internet for the distribution of the Starr Report. As we know, the print media also published the Report in its entirety as well. While the Starr Report is not considered under the law to be harmful to minors, it obviously contains inappropriate information to children of certain ages and there is software technology which can be used to block out certain portions of this report or the entire report depending on the choice and values of the parent.

Rosslyn, VA: What makes you think that one group can be the arbiter of what should be censored on the Internet?

Donna Rice Hughes: Protecting children from ponography that is illegal for them to access in any other form of communication has nothing to do with censorship. There are many groups including the Congress that believe that it is important to protect children from certain types of material that they may not yet be ready to be exposed to.

Linton Weeks: Last month I interviewed Hester Nash who operates an adult-oriented Web site. I asked her how she keeps kids from going into her site. She said, "It is not possible to gain access to our pictures without giving us your credit card. And if you have a credit card, we assume you must be of age. We also put a warning up to let anyone know that stumbles by that this site is for adults only. We do offer a few samples up front, as well as a free vintage erotic postcard service, but none of the images viewable on the non-members pages are any more lurid or graphic than what can be found in Playboy." Does that answer allay you concerns?

Donna Rice Hughes: No. The concern is still the "few samples upfront." That's the problem. Any child can see that. Children can't buy Playboy. The clerk would be prohibited by law for a child to look at Playboy in an adult bookstore.
The Child Online Protection Act, now law (but being challenged by the ACLU) , would require commercial ponographers on the Web to require adult verification or credit card verification before allowing their free sample.
In this case, it's soft-core porn, but many on the Web that I've seen, have free teaser images that are much more hard-core, including sex acts and bestiality.

Linton Weeks: Do you spend much time on the Internet? What sites do you have bookmarked?

Donna Rice Hughes: I spend a lot of time on the Internet, it's my primary tool of communication. I wrote this book in two months, which could not have been done without the Internet. Without the use of email, the writing of this book in such a short time frame with the publisher and editor.

I don't typically bookmark sites, I use it for research. I'm on the Internet every morning, every night and usually a good time inbetween.

Linton Weeks: I also asked Hester Nash about the legislation introduced by Dan Coats (R-Indiana) that targets commercial adult-targeted sites. She replied, "It never ceases to amaze me how much hysteria is focused on the possible harm to children in viewing sexual material, and no one ever seems to care about violence and other horrors much more likely to scar a young mind than depictions of people having sex." How do you answer such counterpoints?

Donna Rice Hughes: You would expect this argument from a pornographer. Protecting innocent minds from violence is very important, however, the focus of my organization is dealing with free, easy and unprecedented access to both legal and illegal ponography and sexual predators' easy access to children.

Linton Weeks: Here's one last excerpt from the interview with Hester Nash I'd like you to respond to: "If a parent wishes to prevent their children from seeing sexual imagery on the net, they should take control of their children's use of the net. DO NOT put the computer in your child's room. Take the modem with you to work. Take responsibility, don't gut the First Amendment and tell me that my access to material of any sort must be restricted to what is appropriate for a 6 year old. I'm 40, I'm a patriotic Constitution-loving American, and I fully expect to have access to anything that interests me. That's one of the cool things about being a grown-up."

Donna Rice Hughes: Parents are the first line of defense. I have a list of safety tips in my book and on my Web site (www.protectkids.com) that are easy for parents to implement. However, children have access to the Internet outside of the home i.e. at school, at the library, etc. Parents can't do it all themselves which has been recognized by groups that I've worked with in the high-tech community, such as American Online and AT & T, and organizations as the U.S. Departments of Education and Justice. There is a shared repponsbility currently parents, teachers and others, the technology industry and law enforcement are sharing to protect children. The Child Online Protection Act simply and approriately requires ponographers making money to bear their share of responsibility. Adults who wish to view ponography, which is legal, are not restricted in any way.

Linton Weeks: We're a little past the half-way mark. I'm going to take an iced-tea break. You keep the questions coming and Donna will keep answering.

Linton Weeks: Which filtering software do you recommend?

Donna Rice Hughes: What i do is provide as much information as is available in an easy-to-understand way so that parents, teachers and others can choose which software offers the features which best meed their needs.
In my book I proposed three scenarios:

1. The one-stop shopping
2. The 100 percent safe approach
3. The safe-but-flexible approach

The ISP and software solutions fit depending on the category.
Overall, I recommend server-based solutions because they're easier to implement. The end-user doesn't have to worry about updates and they're more difficult for a child to circumvent.

Linton Weeks: Donna, one of my questions above was not clear, I'm afraid. How have YOU educated yourself about cyberspace?

Donna Rice Hughes: About five years ago, the only people that knew that much about the internet were in the technology business and I spent a year and a half picking their brains and then I spent a lot of time online myself.

Rockville, MD: What about violence on the Web? Wouldn't that be a better target than sex?

Donna Rice Hughes: It's not violence versus sex. Sex is not the target. The goal is to protect children from illegal pornography and sexual predation by online predators.

Arlington, Virginia: I don't understand how kids have such easy access to adult web sites? I have tried to access some of these sites and you need to register and use a credit card to actually get in, so how are children getting access?

Donna Rice Hughes: I don't know how you're attempting to access your material, but let me give you a few examples.

a child can intentionally or unintentionally access this material.
Unintentional access: 1. pornographic spamming.
2. Innocent word search (typing in "toys" or "dogs" or "dolls" or any number of innocent words) will turn up matched queries of hard-core porn. Many of the ponographers choose to provide free teaser images on their site before asking for adult verification.
Secondly, all of the pornography on the Usenet news groups is still free and unregulated and unmonitored.

3. Stealth sites: A domain name is switched intentionally by pornographers to drive traffic to their site, i.e. Whitehouse.gov (official site) capitalize on the name "White House" and have set up whitehouse.com

4. Spelling errors: pornographers will change the spelling of commonly typed search terms to drive traffic to their site. For instance, shareware properly spelled takes you to shareware. Leaving off the middle "e" takes to you many hard-core porn sites.

Linton Weeks: How did the Gary Hart episode change your life?

Donna Rice Hughes: It was a very diffficult devastating time and one that was so painful and my greatest goal was to have it count something bigger than me. I returned to the foundation of my faith and with the help of my family and good friends was able to rise above that tumultuous time in which I chose not to exploit my notoriety and instead be silent and go underground for healing and restoration. Seven years later, I move to Washington to get married and started working with Enough Is Enough. Within a few weeks of joining, I discovered that illegal child ponography and obscenity were accessible to any child with a computer and a modem and began to pursue this new challenge of protecting children in this otherwise exciting and new medium. My efforts eventually put me back in the spotlight, where I've been able to use this international platform in a positive way.

Linton Weeks: When you talk about "kids" and "children" what do you mean? How old should a person be before he or she is considered an adult?

Donna Rice Hughes: The law defines under 17 or 18 depending on the state.

Linton Weeks: You point out that kids can't walk into a store and buy "Penthouse." How old should someone be before he or she can buy the magazine?

Donna Rice Hughes: All states have Harmful to Minors Laws which require ponography which is constitutionally protected by consenting adults to be segregated from children in the print and broadcast media. The laws have drawn the age barrier as 17 or 18, depending on the state.

Linton Weeks: Do you really believe that pornography is addictive?

Donna Rice Hughes: Ponography can be addictive. It's like alcohol. Not everyone who drinks is going to become an alcoholic. Not everyone who consumes ponography is going to become addicted to it. There is a tremendous amount of evidence, statistics and studies that show ponography is addictive to some. For those adults and/or kids who struggle with ponography addiction, help is available: check out www.sexaddict.com.

Linton Weeks: Hasn't there been erotic material available since the dawn of man?

Donna Rice Hughes: Oh yes. but the kind of material that is available to children now on the Internet is unprecedented. Children have free access to illegal ponography (child porn and hard-core obscenity as well as harmful-to-minors-ponography)

Linton Weeks: Can you speak of any new technologies that you and your group support that would help you accomplish your mission?

Donna Rice Hughes: I've always been a strong proponent of technological solutions and through my involvement with the Internet Online Summit in December 1997, we worked with AT & T Labs to develop a list of all the protective technology that was available and have since updated that information ( which I' have included in my book -- some of which is online at protectkids.com under the Technology Appendix, and you'll be linked to the most updated information on protective technology).

Linton Weeks: What role do Internet Service Providers play in the distribution of questionable material to children?

Donna Rice Hughes: The ISPs have a tremendous opportunity to develop family-friendly policies which should include compliance with existing laws such as the removal of child ponography and obscenity from their own proprietary services and news groups which they pass through to their subscribers. A number of ISPs have implemented server-level filtering which offers end users a simple turnkey approach. A list of those which I call "clean ISPs" is available in my book and on the Enough Is Enough website (enough.org).

Linton Weeks: How many children do you have? Are your home computers connected to the Internet? Are their school computers connected?

Donna Rice Hughes: I have two step-teenagers. My home computer is connected and I've turned on parental controls for mature teens, for my 17-year-old and have blocked chat rooms as well as incoming email from those he does not know which protects him from pornographic spamming.

Washington DC: Does your group fight against explicitly sexual lyrics in popular songs?

Donna Rice Hughes: No.

Washington D.C.: It seems reasonable enough to request pornographers take some measures to ensure kids don't access their sites - While parents, teachers, libraries should take most of the responsibility to monitor the use of the internet, I'm sure kids can always find a way around the monitoring at times, so requesting some kind of access-key to look at explicit material seems perfectly reasonable.Why do you think there is such a resistance to this request?

Donna Rice Hughes: I appreciate your insight. The answer is I'm not quite sure because I believe it's reasonable as well because we're not attempting to do anything that isn't acceptable and constitutional in the print and broadcast media. Perhaps it's because the Internet is a global new frontier and we're grappling with how to preserve the free flow of information online while implementing appropriate regulation whether it be concerning illegal pornography or copyright infringements. However, it's important, I believe, for the growth and mainstream acceptance of the Internet that we continue to work together to make sure that the Internet is safe for everyone.

Bethesda, MD: Is your group affiliated with a certain religion or denomination?

Donna Rice Hughes: No. Enough Is Enough is secular and non-partisan. We found that this issue is a unifying issue.

Rockville, Maryland: In regards to your patronizing and offensive comment, "You would expect this argument from a pornographer." I am a responsible parent and an honest member of the community, and the sentiments expressed by Hester Nash, "It never ceases to amaze me how much hysteria..." are identical to my own. And I can assure you I am not a pornographer.

Donna Rice Hughes: I don't believe there is hysteria around protecting young and innocent children.

Washington, DC: Do you plan on restricting minor's access to art that contains nudes?

Donna Rice Hughes: No. The law is very clear. If material such as art depicting nudity has serious value and is not designed to appeal to the prurient interests of a minor, then it would not, under law, be considered harmful to minors. For instance, if a magazine or newspaper or television show can portray a series of classical Michelangelo paintings depicting nudity, so can a site on the Internet without concern of it being harmful to minors. There is a big difference between Michelangelo's "David" and a "Penthouse" centerfold, under the law.

Burtonsville, Md: Hello,

My name is Betsy Johnson and I, too, am interested in stopping pornography and making it safe for our chldren on the internet. I have been involved in education for over 20 years and am searching for a job on the internet. One that encompasses cyberpatrol or the like. Is there anything available within your organization that will employ me on line for a salary. I await your response.

Donna Rice Hughes: We're always looking for help. Please send us an email to our Website at enough.org.

New York, New York: What makes you an expert on what should appear on the Web?

Donna Rice Hughes: I'm not an expert on what should appear; however, I do have expertise on what the law says. And the laws are very clear.

Washington, DC: How do you handle it when people accuse you of being a party pooper?

Donna Rice Hughes: I've not been accused of being a party pooper to my face. In fact, my husband would think that's a joke. Those of us who want to protect children online are not necessarily prudes or party poopers. Certainly not I.

Newark, Delaware: I am a Computer Science Ph.D. with a specialty in Artificial Intelligence and Linguistics. It is patently false to claim that any filter can reliably "protect" people from viewing anything on the Internet, and anybody who says otherwise is either lying or just doesn't understand the problem. The Language Understanding Problem is a well-known computational linguistics problem, and is equally known to be unsolvable. The crux is that language is plastic and a filter is rigid and cannot be made plastic. This means that as soon as a filter is created to block out certain language, the language can be changed to negate the effectiveness of the filter. And even harder and related problem is the Image Understanding Problem. So, without being able to filter "undesirable" content based on either words or pictures, how do you propose to address the problem you describe?

Donna Rice Hughes: The solution that I devised over 4 and one half years ago takes your points into consideration. That is, the only way children will be safe on the Internet is with a thorough three-prong approach which involves a shared responsibility with the public (children, parents, teachers, etc); the technology community and law enforcement, including government. All must be doing their part. Just as parents can't do it by themselves, neither can technology because of what you just mentioned. No filter is one hundred percent effective. In fact, in my book, the only one hundred percent effective solution is a closed system (that is, not the Internet but an Intranet). This is why I continue to work on all three fronts with public awareness, the technology community and good laws and law enforcement. But with respect to the end-user, my mantra is "rules and tools."-- implement safety rules and software tools in tandem to protect kids at the end-user level.

Linton Weeks: What other interests do you have these days? What is your next goal?

Donna Rice Hughes: To get some rest! I continue to work with Enough Is Enough and educate the public especially computer-illiterate parents about the importance of extending their parenting role online.

Linton Weeks: Which politicians are particularly sympathetic to your mission?

Donna Rice Hughes: Most of them. There's a whole list in the Senate and in the House who have demonstrated leadership surrounding issues of children and Internet safety, particularly Senator Coates (R-IN), Sen. McCain and Congressman Oxley and Congressman Franks.

Linton Weeks: That about wraps it up, folks. Thanks so much to Donna for being with us. Thanks to J Weis, Kim O'Donnel and all the good people at washingtonpost.com. And thanks especially to everyone who sent in questions. Next week I'm taking the day off to officially give thanks. On Thursday, December 3, Navigator--Live will return. My guest will be Andy Gems of Yahoo! to answer questions about his amazing company, about competition among search engines and directories and about the cosmic import and impact of ... oh nevermind. Until then.

   |       |   

Back to the top