China: Student Activists
Philip P. Pan
Washington Post Beijing Bureau Chief
Friday, April 23, 2004; Noon ET
Eight Chinese students formed an informal group in the summer of 2000 to discuss the possibility of Democratic reforms in China. Today, four of them are in jail after a member of the group informed the Ministry of State Security. The story of the New Youth Study Group shows that 15 years after Tiananmen Square, the Chinese Communist party continues to use severe measures to maintain its grip on power and how it treats any independent group as a potential threat.
Washington Post Beijing Bureau Chief Philip P. Pan will be online Friday, Apr. 23, at Noon ET to discuss his story, A Study Group Is Crushed in China's Grip, about the Chinese student activists. Pan's account is based on interviews with the four members of the study group who escaped arrest, relatives and friends of those imprisoned, and others who attended the group’s meetings, as well as documents presented in court in the case.
Submit your questions and comments before or during the discussion.
Editor's Note: washingtonpost.com moderators retain editorial control
over Live Online discussions and choose the most relevant questions for guests and hosts; guests and hosts can decline to answer questions.
Philip P. Pan: Hello everyone. Thanks for reading the article and dropping by. I'll try to answer as many questions as I can.
_______________________
China:
We read occassional stories in Western newspapers about political dissent in China, but it still seems to be the exception rather than the norm. How widespread do you think ideas about political reform are on college campuses today in China?
Philip P. Pan: That's a very good question, and one we have been trying to figure out, especially as the 15th anniversary of Tiananmen approaches. My own sense is that there is broad and deep support for "political reform" both on college campuses and in society in general, and even in the party itself. I think people differ on how fast reform should be implemented, though, and what kind of reforms. As for college students themselves, I think most believe the system needs to change, but a lot of them are also quite wary of radical change.
_______________________
Phoenix, Ariz.:
Have stories like this managed to arouse any outrage among the Chinese people, aside from intellectuals and political activists? I have heard that the vast majpority of Chinese are unconcerned with horror stories like this as long as their incomes continue to increase. Thoughts?
Philip P. Pan: I think it's unfair to say that the vast majority of Chinese are unconcerned about stories like this as long as their incomes continue to increase. The sense of outrage is limited, though, because many Chinese are simply unaware of stories like this. They are not published in China's state-run media, of course. The government has been very careful to prevent stories that cause a lot of outrage from getting too much media attention for fear of causing social instability. They're quite good at it. Of course, keeping incomes rising (which is a challenge in itself) is an important part of the formula too.
_______________________
Washington, D.C.:
This morning I read the article I was having my breakfast, I don’t know why, but I cried several times. I feel so sad about those eight young people who showed their courage to challenge the government. I am also very moved by their struggles among loyalty, betrayal, beliefs, etc.
Thank you very much for the wonderful coverage of the stories.
Philip P. Pan: Thanks for your kind note. I'll pass on your thoughts to Lu Kun and the others.
The Internet in China is quite slow, so please be patient and forgive the slow pace of responses.
_______________________
McLean, Va.:
This is a really terrific job of reporting and writing. I am curious about how you reported this article. Why did you pick this example and how did you find it? Were there other examples you could have chosen? What kind of public records were available on this case, and was it reported about in the official Chinese media? How long did you work on this? How did you track down Li in Bangkok? Thanks, and congratulations on an amazing job.
Philip P. Pan: I first heard about these kids when they were first detained three years ago. I met with some of their relatives then, and soon began to hear rumors about one of the students being an informer. And so I just decided to keep following it and try to track down everyone. Tracking down Li was relatively once he decided to come clean. He had been posting stuff on the Internet and has been in contact with human rights groups in the West, trying to get support for his application for refugee status.
There are very few public records in China, in the sense of a sunshine law or anything. But the sentencing document issued by a judge is generally available to relatives of defendants. There was little if any mention of the case in Chinese media.
Thanks for your question.
_______________________
Beijing, China:
As an American living in China, I was deeply disturbed by your record of the Ministry of Public Security's gestapo-style tactics. I often discuss political topics with Chinese friends and even send them e-mails or forwards on political topics (including your recent article). Considering Internet monitoring by government agencies, to what extent am I endangering these friends (or myself for that matter)? For example, when I forwarded your recent article to a Chinese friend, the e-mail could not go through. The article was blocked and sent back to me.
Philip P. Pan: There have been reported cases of people getting in trouble for receiving e-mail with politically incorrect content. Generally, though, I think people aren't likely to get in trouble for receiving or reading such content. If they distribute it or save it, especially at a government office, that could cause problems. I just interviewed a person who lost his job for saving essays and e-mails about democratic reform.
_______________________
Shanghai, China:
Political change can not be made overnight. I am afraid that the radical change appoach could do more harm than good in China. What do you think?
Philip P. Pan: A very good question, but of course, political change can happen overnight. It just might be painful. Personally, I agree that "radical change" could be difficult for a large and volatile country like China to handle. On the other hand, I think using that as an excuse not to embark on any political reform or to change too slowly can be just as harmful, perhaps even more so.
_______________________
Arlington, Va.:
I apologize for asking an off-topic question, but can you tell us any further information about the train explosion in North Korea? Is there any chance that North Korea will allow foreign observers to participate in the investigation?
Philip P. Pan: My colleague Ed Cody is at the border, and you can click on his story on the front page for the latest. I'm sure it will have more information than I do.
_______________________
North Carolina:
This year is the 15th anniversary of the Tiananmen Square massacre. Based on your conversations with sources for this and other China-related stories, can you provide any insight on what the atmosphere will be like in China on June 4, 2004?
Philip P. Pan: The atmosphere will be quite tense. The government is already nervous and has been trying to tighten their controls, while activists of course are hoping to mark the anniversary. You can expect stepped up surveillance and a lot of arrests and detentions in the weeks leading up to the day, and a large security presence on college campuses and the square itself. For example, I suspect they will make it difficult for outsiders to wander on to campuses.
_______________________
China:
Mr. Pan:
Thanks for an interesting article. But I'm wondering, isn't it a sign of how much things have changed in China, that the others who were not imprisoned were willing to tell their story to The Washington Post China Bureau Chief and pose for pictures? After all, others have been prosecuted for "revealing state secrets" in the course of speaking with foreign reporters.
Also, I'd like to know if we readers could get a hold of the essays that were posted on the Web by the group.
Philip P. Pan: An excellent point. People in China now enjoy more personal freedom than at any time under Communist rule. One of the things that is happening is that some of these people are using this freedom to test and push the limits. And the government has been struggling to deal with this.
I want to emphasize though that the young people who spoke with me did so after careful and lengthy consideration. All of them were quite reluctant at first, understandably so. I'm actually quite surprised that in the end they all agreed to do so.
As for their essays, if you can read Chinese, someone has set up a mirror site preserving Yangzi's Home of Ideas. http://intelmessages.org/China/freeyzl/mirror/
_______________________
Dallas, Tex.:
With the huge strides being made in the Chinese economy, and emerging as a heavy weight in the global sense, do the Chinese people question the backwardness of human rights?
Philip P. Pan: There's no doubt that that Chinese people are concerned about human rights. The government acknowledged this just recently and put protection of human rights into the constitution.
As for the economy, though it is booming, it's also important to note that there are a lot of challenges, including desperate poverty in many parts of the countryside, a widening rich-poor gap, rampant corruption, and banks struggling to deal with bad loans.
_______________________
Oakton, Va.:
What language were your interviews conducted in? If they were in Mandarin, do you feel this provides you an advantage in researching your articles?
Philip P. Pan: My interviews were conducted in Mandarin. That saves time and makes it much easier to establish trust with people.
_______________________
Austin, Tex.:
I'm sure it's hard to quantify these things, how would you compare the state of political (not economic) freedom in China to the situation of other countries (North Korea, Cuba, Arab countries, Central Asia, etc.)?
Philip P. Pan: You're right, it's very hard to quantify, especially since I haven't visited many of these other places. There is certainly more political freedom in China than North Korea, though. What is remarkable about the Chinese Communist Party though is how successful it has been in maintaining control over such a huge population, and how it has really challenged the notion that economic reforms must be accompanied by political reform.
_______________________
Washington, D.C.:
Historically, China has dissolved into several states during times of weak central government. Do you see any serious danger of that happening in the modern age if the Beijing government were to loosen its hold on central authority?
Philip P. Pan: Yes, there is definitely such a risk and it weighs heavily on the leadership. Consider Tibet, Xinjiang, Hong Kong, not to mention Taiwan. But devolution of power from the central government doesn't necessarily have to lead to chaos and war. Some intellectuals here believe some type of federal system would be quite appropriate for as large and diverse a nation as China.
_______________________
Washington, D.C.:
With the Chinese Ministry of State Security destroying people's lives, I wonder why the Westerners are so gullible thinking that in China something has improved in the human rights issue.
With whole industries moving to China where they can pay lowest wages to their employees, do you still expect that Western world can efficiently pressure the Chinese regime for change?
Philip P. Pan: I think there's little doubt the world has put pressure on China to change, and that China responds to such pressure. But there's also little doubt that commercial interests have influenced the actions of foreign governments, and that the Chinese leadership knows this and uses it to its advantage.
_______________________
New Jersey:
What group of people, do you think, are most
actively interested in bringing about political reforms in China? Are they mostly college students in large cities?
Philip P. Pan: That's a tough question. There's certainly a group of intellectuals and college students who are interested in political change. There are also many ordinary people, though, who feel left behind by the economic boom (laid-off workers). And also others feel reform is necessary to protect their new prosperity (new homeowners being screwed by state developers.) It's hard for me to judge who is most actively interested. I've been exploring that question for more than three years.
_______________________
Annandale, Va.:
I was wondering about how the Chinese government gets people to betray their friends. I noticed that China uses state-controlled media to bash Falun Gong in an effort to turn people against the spiritual practice. But in today's article Li Yuzhou seemed to think he was serving his country. It seems like the Chinese government has many strategies to turn good people against good people.
Philip P. Pan: Yes, indeed. The Chinese government has been very successful at using a variety of tactics to persuade a wide range of people to help it stay in power.
_______________________
Virginia Beach, Va.:
How common are groups like the New Youth Study Group? Since the pro-democracy demonstrations in Tiananmen Square have groups turned violent? Does Beijing have reason to fear these groups or are they over-reacting to maintain control?
Philip P. Pan: There have been no significant pro-democracy groups turning to violence in China.
Does the party have reason to fear the emergence of independent groups and organizations? I think from the party's perspective, yes, if you want to maintain a monopoly on power, there is reason to worry that independent groups could pose a challenge.
But did the New Youth Study Group really pose a challenge to the party? No. Can an independent civil society also help the party deal with all the problems China faces? Yes.
_______________________
Hong Kong, China:
I'm a journalist in Hong Kong, and it is striking to me how the "democratic" press in this city avoids commenting on this issue, and issues similar to it, altogether. Blogs seem to do a great deal of talking about it, but strangely, they get most of their information from the international press.
Question: Given that the Western media oftentimes paints the China dream/nightmare in vividly extreme cases of generality, what's a way to get foreign correspondents to further understand China on a people's level, not on the level we are often left with discussing: the arbitration of the government and the state-fed reportage of devices like Xinhua and China Daily?
Can we learn something from these English language teachers living in China that have the resourcefulness, though not yet a full grasp of reportage, to tell us what really goes on there? Why depend on the distant foreign press?
Philip P. Pan: I've noticed the reluctance of Hong Kong media to fully explore human rights conditions in China too. But, of course, Hong Kong journalists have ended up in Chinese prisons for doing so.
Most foreign correspondents I know here do their best to move beyond "generality." But China is a difficult place to work. The government is obstructive. People are often scared to talk. The language is difficult and varies widely from place to place. The amount of territory to be covered is huge.
_______________________
New York, N.Y.:
Excellent article, first of all. I lived in Shenzhen last fall, and always tried to keep up with news through The Post's website and television stations from Hong Kong. Sometimes during the news, a story that was obviously about Taiwan would start and the station would all of a sudden cut to commercial. This censorship seems pretty heavy-handed and blatant to me, but my Chinese friends did not seem to notice. Do you have a general feeling that many people are aware of blatant censorship, and if they are, do you know many who care?
Philip P. Pan: Thanks. I think most Chinese are aware of censorship and have developed strategies to deal with it. Some listen to short-wave radio broadcasts. Others rely on the Internet. Most probably just learn to watch the media with skepticism. What I've noticed, though, is they are much more skeptical about reports in state-run media about events in China than they are about the reports about foreign news.
_______________________
Zhengzhou, Central China:
I am a teacher at a University in Central China -- the account made me sad and confused. I am reminded of the five blind hindus examining the elephant. This level of repression has not been my experience so far in China. I thought your suggestion that this was a case of a bureaucracy trying to a justification for its own existence was plausible. I wonder how many similar cases there around the universities in China?
I am not sure that the level of discontent that you suggest is all that widespread. The party undeniably has brought stability for the first time in over a century and the rise of China is one of the great events of modern history. I'm not sure that the masses are all that concerned about the lack of western freedoms.
Philip P. Pan: That's a good point. But discontent in China isn't just about the lack of "western" freedoms. It's about corruption, abuse of power, poor governance, the gap between rich and poor, etc., and some of the discontent about these issues has translated into discontent with the political system. How much is a key issue to watch in the next few years.
_______________________
Washington, D.C.:
Is this story endemic of what many Chinese students face? Is there a large contingent of university age Chinese who want to see democracy and liberal reforms? Is this a groundswell or is it a case of 8 people who show what China will do to anyone who might potentially disagree?
Philip P. Pan: I think many university students here would be happy to see liberal reform in China. But how many of them are willing to do anything about it? How many of them think about it regularly? One of the reasons I was interested in this group of students is they seemed more engaged and interested in the subject than many of their peers, and I was curious why, and at what cost.
It's getting late here, so I'm going to wrap it up soon. Thanks for all the great questions.
_______________________
Philip P. Pan: Thanks again, everyone. It's wonderful to have such a great and interested audience.
_______________________
Automatically Update Page
Get New Responses
Submit Question
| 
