Frontline/World
Mark Schapiro
Correspondent
Friday, August 20, 2004; 1:00 p.m. ET
As Americans decide whether to re-elect their president or choose a new
leader, FRONTLINE/World gives voters an international perspective on the 2004 presidential race.
Featuring new Web-exclusive reports each Tuesday through the Nov. 2
election, "Dispatches from a Small Planet: Election 2004" illustrates how others in the world view the U.S. election.
On Tuesday, Aug. 27, FRONTLINE/World correspondent Mark Schapiro reports from Budapest and Brussels on the emerging economic and political power of the European Union and why, for Europeans, the U.S. may not matter anymore. Read Shapiro's Report.
Schapiro will be online Friday, Aug. 20, at 1 p.m. ET, to discuss his reports.
Submit your questions and comments before or during the discussion.
"Dispatches from a Small Planet: Election 2004" will feature stories by young "backpack journalists," in addition to award-winning veterans such as Lowell Bergman and Orville Schell.
Editor's Note: washingtonpost.com moderators retain editorial control
over Live Online discussions and choose the most relevant questions for guests and hosts; guests and hosts can decline to answer questions.
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada:
Do you feel that the recently announced U.S. troop reductions in Europe will serve to increase the divide between the U.S. and Europe? Also, it strikes me that the more the former East-Bloc countries learn about the reality of US foreign policy, culture and so on,the less they like it. Mark Schapiro: Very good question. Of course, many in U.S. have been arguing for years, since fall of the Berlin Wall, that troops in Europe no longer serve any significant foreign policy purpose. I think on the one hand it may be welcomed by the left in Europe--which has long seen them as anachronistic. On the right, I'm not sure there will be huge resistance to the idea.
In the long run, the presence of those troops have been a tether between US and Europe, and its another sign that the traditional means used to maintain US-European cohesion are weakening.
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Caracas, Venezuela:
If the Sudanese, who are being massacred by the Arab-occupation government, were to build a wall to protect themselves from being slaughtered, do you think the nations of Europe would condemn the wall and call it racist? Mark Schapiro: not sure the answer to that. But one thing I can say is that there is a large divide between US and European opinion on Israel and Palestine. There is considerably harsher view of the Israeli position on the wall and other matters than here in the United States....
and so such a distinction might be one that would be received more favorably in Europe than in the United States. (though I might even disagree with the comparison).
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Kennesaw, Ga.:
About your interesting report, Mr. Shapiro, I noticed a couple of things. One was the focus on the things that are happening in the EU politically, with elections and in the expanding government buristocracy. Your references to the EU as an economic competitor -- and of course individual businesses in Europe have competed with ours for decades -- were pro forma, and you didn't discuss Europe's economy at all.
The second thing I noticed is that the section on "old Europe" is so negative, in this sense: that Europe, struggling to define a new identity and unable to do so on its own, is defining itself by the ways it is not like America. There are limitations to this approach, it seems to me, but an aging European society longing for a quiet life might well seek dissociation from a potentially disruptive force -- and there are many disruptive things about the United States.
Your thoughts?
Mark Schapiro: In referendce to European economy: the United States remains Europe's most significant trading partner...and the reverse is true as well. About a quarter of European exports come to the US...
So when we speak of economy and competition and even rivalry, in every case talking about a competitor who shares same basic values--cultural, historical, etc.--as U.S.
However, major distinctions are in political culture--to grossly simplify--and in differing sense of the social fabric expressed through the political systems. More of a developed sense of shared political-cultural-literal space, and incumbent responsibilities....US political culture based on the vast open spaces...Why the distinctions often drawn between innovation coming from US--which we trade for a political culture less attuned to common and shared responsibility...
That said, this classic definition is beginning also to shift, as centers of quote innovation unquote starting to shift to different parts of the world....I hope that approaches an answer to your question...
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Philadelphia, Pa.:
Would the EU like to incorporate labor and environmental standards into its trade policies toward Asia, Africa and Latin America or does it prefer free trade without consideration of labor and environmental issues? Mark Schapiro: Indeed, there is a basic tension between initiatives toward free trade and initiatives toward environmental protection: On the one hand, the free trade impulse requires a dismantling of govt. authority; on the other, the raising of govt. authority over economic activity to protect the environment. Within these basic constraints established by the World Trade Organization, the EU has a somewhat different approach to trade negotiations than the United States. Most prominently, this includes matters of linking trade agreements with basic principles of human rights: for example an agreement in the nineties with Mexico also required that country to open itself to EU human rights observers. There are other similar examples. And when it comes to the environment, there is a basic notion that economic development can be pursued on a sustainable pathway. Sometimes this has included such measures as sustainable technology transfers conducted in the context of a trade agreement, or subsidies for more environmentally friendly techniques to be used in fisheries and agriculture.
In addition, the input of civil society is built into the process to a greater extent than trade positions developed by the USTR. In some instances, the Directorate General of Trade--the trade policy-making arm of the EUropean Union--funds participants from civil society to come to Brussels to participate in early policy-making endeavors--a move which can encourage greater attentiveness to matters of environmental protection and labor rights...
Watch for the latest agreements now being negotiated between the EU and South Africa and other south African countries.
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Alexandria, Va.:
What do you (and Europeans) think about Umberto Eco's contention that the U.S. is becoming a Pacific, and not an Atlantic, nation?
Mark Schapiro: ...not sure about that one....Having recently moved to San Francisco from New York...this coast certainly feels more oriented toward Asia/Pacific, than New York City, oriented more toward Europe/Atlantic...I miss the bialys in nyc...
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Boston, Mass.:
Re: Venezuela's comparison. It may be an unfit comparison because I thought that since the resumption of the intifada in 2000, the number of Palestinians who have been killed strongly outnumbered the number of Israelis who have also tragically been killed (I remember the statistic being around 30,000 Palestinian lives lost, and around 1,000 Israeli lives lost). However, please, please correct me if I'm wrong [I'm sure I may be] -- that's what I'm here for, to learn something new. Thanks for the chat.
Mark Schapiro: ...without going into details of this somewhat--to say the least--complicated historic battle that continues in the Middle East, the main point here is the hugely different views between US and Europeans. Striking thing is when you go/work in Europe--Palestine is perceived as a functioning political entity (for better or worse). There is strong popular support and political support for Palestinian push for independence...its cast in classic terms of human rights struggle.
In United States this is cast rather differently. In terms of Israel's long term struggle to survive...and Palestine as the terrorist state. Ultimately this distinction--overly simplified here--has big impact on differing approach of Europe v US in Mid-East policy.....
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Wheaton, Md.:
Why is there such a difference between the U.S. and Europe on foreign policy issues? Most Europeans opposed U.S. action against Iraq and take a pro-terrorist position against Israel. It seems as though oppresive, anti-Democratic forces are, once-again, becoming popular in continental Europe.
Mark Schapiro: Funny, many Europeans come easily to a description of the US these days as one in which "oppressive, anti-democratic forces" becoming popular. I suppose it depends which side of the democracy you're on...
Just kidding...
But there is a strong commitment in Europe to multilateral action--meaning foreign policy when dealing with enormous issue of whether or not to invade a country--be conducted in consultation with and support of allies. Now, this can sometimes be a problem...witness how long it took for unified European action in Kosovo in late nineties (finally prompted by US action in their backyard).
But the main point here is that Europe perceives itself as part of a world community of nations far more strongly than does the United States...and so, referring to Iraq, found the action precipitous...found the notion of preemptive strike rather scary....and strong sense that United States was not really interested in opinions of allies or the UN before making the move into Iraq. Now of course that's shifted a bit as current administration sees necessity of coopoeration in reconstruction, and has been seeing some of the potential benefits of intl. cooperation (which neverthesless may not be coming).
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Maringa, Brazil:
Mr. Schapiro, I think that aliance between France and Germany is being the central axis in European union and the principal factor that conducts the european international policy against the United States. The French-German aliance is disagreeing frequently with the USA international policy, how in the Iraq invasion for example. In this sense, I think the USA is beginning to see France and Germany as rivals, too. And it indicates this USA position the recent Bush's speech showing his intention of to retire American forces from Germany. What do you think?
Mark Schapiro: Interesting point. From European poview first: Barrasco, new President of the European Commission, specifically did not appoint many leading members of new Commission from France and/or Germany. Many of new appointments come from Eastern Europe and UK...these appts. as I mention in my article really are seen as an attempt to soften some of the harshness in US-Euro relations that have built up over the past several years.
and then question of rivals: Likely France and Germany are seen as competitors....Competitors certainly in economic sense, and with a somewhat different perspective on world affairs (ie Iraq, etc.). In the end, however, we are competitors in best sense of the word: competing in realm of economics...and in the realm of ideas.
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Alexandria, Va.:
Having spoken with some senior members of the European Central Bank in Frankfurt, I was once told quite frankly that Europe's main economic goal after integration is competition with the U.S. The ultimate pinnacle is overtaking the U.S. and becoming a more dominant global player. For this, I do not blame the EU -- the integrated countries are very potent economically and, in the future, will be a force to be reckoned with. How do you think the United States will react if/when our traditional allies begin to challenge our hegemony in the world (even though this term today is somewhat debatable)? Thank you for an interesting piece.
Mark Schapiro: hello Alexandria: your question strikes at what I think is one of the dominant geo-political shifts of our time, as the weight of political-economic influence adjusts to the 21st century. The fact is, the U.S. will no longer have the hegemonic--for lack of a better term at the moment--position its enjoyed since the end of the War. This can be measured economically, culturally, and of cours epolitically.
What will be our response? Well, we've seen some of that response become crystallized around Iraq--denunciation of old vs. new Europe, etc....a distinction which I think historicans will someday be laughing at as this bigger shift continues......
But issue much bigger than Iraq. US already becoming a more globalized society. I think the responsibility is on the public to grasp the United States in what for many is perhaps a new light: in the context of an international framework. In which we have many strengths and also weaknesses...
how the US reacts will depend on leaders in political and economic realm who understand this changing dynamic. I'm not sure we've had that sense to this point...
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Texas:
You've addressed the general issue of why Europeans and Americans have such different views about foreign policy. But what about the specific question of Israel/Palestine? I don't mean this as a Euro-bashing comment, but I can't help suspecting that there is a pretty substantial component of antisemitism going on at some level.
Unfair?
Mark Schapiro: First, its interesting what a high level of interest the Euro-US positions on Israel...As I mention in my piece, it was this question that was near top on the list of European Commission too when they met with then Senator Edwards in June.
Is it anti-semitism? I don't think so, indeed perhaps I would shudder to think it is. Though we've seen a rise in anti-semitic attacks recently--particularly in Paris--I don't believe those skinheads and other idiots are enunciating much of a postion on the Middle East...
the position vis a vis Israel is of course complex: But to oversimplify it, I would suggest that just as progressives in the United States supported the anti-apartheid movement in South Africa; the popular revolutions of Latin America, etc as justified struggles against economomic/political oppression, etc...that the Israel-Palestine struggle seen in a similar light. The region is quite close to Europe and far from the US. And though I do not really sympathize with that view--indeed I have Israeli cousins, have spent time living there--one needs, I think to find a way that is a little less blind to Israel's faults (as in the U.S.) and a little less mythologizing of the Palestinians' cause (as in Europe)...To grossly oversimplify...
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Harrisburg, Pa.:
As the U.S. refuses to sign various international treaties, in addition to invading Iraq without widespread international support, is there less respect for the U.S. as we seem to be a country that does as it wishes without consulting the international community?
Mark Schapiro: One word answer to Harrisburg: Yes.
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Austin, Tex.:
I imagine that from the German perspective, the announced withdrawal of U.S. forces is a mixed bag. Negatives: economic impact on towns near bases, weakening of alliance. Positives: no more large foreign army in country, occasional bad behavior by soldiers.
On balance, how do you thing the German government and public feel about the issue? Do they regard this as good news or bad news overall?
Mark Schapiro: I have not reviewed recent German press on this question, but its a good one. My sense after many trips there is that since 1989--unravelling of the Soviet threat--these troops were either seen as a symbol of some anachronistic Cold War committment, a symbol of American desire to assert a presence in Europe...or forgotten. There was not a lot of positive feeling toward the troops, other than for receipts at the local beer hall...
Its hard to list a single real purpose they were serving there in Germany now...Where's the threat?
The one significant impact it may have in German/European politics is forcing Europe to start facing reality of its own defense. Now, how needed it is for Europe to pour billions into defense is another question. But there are some who argue that Europe's relatively high standard of living was accomplished with help of not having to pay high costs for its own defense. Withdrawal of troops will begin to prompt an assessment in Europe as to the nature of their own willingness/desire to spend money/troops on their own defense. Which could, in long run, lead to a unified European defense force....
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Los Angeles, Calif.:
Why does the American press discount
the lessons learned by Germany in regards to
pre-emptive unilateral war? Why should we want German troops in foreign countries again? Now we have our Secretary of State
saying perhaps Japan should ditch its pacifist constitution! Considering the AP
report that Prescott Bush was cloaking Nazi
assets after Pearl Harbor, and it can be
corroborated in declassified files in our
National Archives, is it safe to say that
there is a serious disconnect between political thought and documented history?
Mark Schapiro: ...seems to me the link between serious political thought and documented history has always been a tenuous one.
indeed, particularly notable to watch as current administration in desire for appearance of intl support in Iraq pushing Germany and Japan to drop their longstanding distaste for military engagement abroad (for obvious reasons)in interests of supporting a war that was launched with barely a fig leaf of intl. legitimacy.
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New York, N.Y.:
As we move from a manufacturing society to an information society, it is interesting that we are becoming less reliant on output from other nations than more we become able to communicate with other nations. What are your forecasts for how the future of international trade as our lifestyles change?
Mark Schapiro: Disputes over trade issues will continue to accelerate as the intl. legal hallmarks of our time...
That said, I think our reliance on imports is increasing...and hopefully there will be some cultural-reverb from that as U.S. comes more attuned to realities of the world. Already see it in emergence of Spanish as second language of the U.S.; of increasing emphasis on foreign policy in current presidential debate; numbers of students studying abroad; number of great music bands from distant locales finding popular reception here; same with films; anad then there's always Ikea to give you the feeling of Scandinavia. Not necessarily in that order.
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Mark Schapiro: Pleasure to speak with all of you. Thanks for your thoughtful and provokative questions.
And hope you enjoy what's left of the day or night...wherever you are....
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Austin, Tex.:
More of a comment. Even though I am closer to the European position on foreign policy, Bush, etc., I find myself getting annoyed with some of the "America-is-a-sick-society-full-of-idiots" comments in the European press. Of course we have all kinds of problems, but so do the Europeans. France doesn't deal very well with immigration. Britain's infrastructure is in bad shape. Soccer hooligans. German unemployment and low productivity. I don't know which society is "healthier" overall, but I'd say you could argue either way. And of course we do, even today, share a lot of values.
Do you, as an American and on a personal level, ever find yourselfgetting annoyed and thinking thoughts along these lines when you read/hear the more aggressive critics of U.S. society?
Mark Schapiro: ...and I'll take a stab at this one more question. In my work--I work at the Center for Investigative Reporting--I take a somewhat critical stance toward power of the government, corporate type. And I do share some strong criticisms of how the US is behaving in the world--which I think in the long run is undermining our position in numerous arenas.
However, I do find myself while traveling in Europe in the unusual circumstance of trying to add nuance and subltety to what can at times seem like oversimplification of U.S. polit6ics, etc. That does not come frequently from educated people, those in EU, etc...but in other settings, I find myself the biggest defender in the room of United States. An interesting spot to be in...
Thank you....Mark Schapiro
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