Frontline: The Persuaders
Rachel Dretzin
Producer
Wednesday, November 10, 2004; Noon ET
In "The Persuaders," Frontline takes an in-depth look at the multibillion-dollar “persuasion industries” of advertising and public relations. To cut through mass-media clutter and to overcome consumers’ growing resistance to their pitches, marketers have developed new ways of integrating their messages deeper into the fabric of our lives. Through sophisticated market research methods to better understand consumers and by turning to the little-understood techniques of public relations to make sure their messages come from sources we trust, marketers are crafting messages that resonate with an increasingly cynical public. In this 90-minute documentary essay, correspondent Douglas Rushkoff (NYU professor and correspondent for Frontline’s “The Merchants of Cool”) also explores how the culture of marketing has come to shape the way Americans understand the world and themselves and how the techniques of the persuasion industries have migrated to politics, shaping the way our leaders formulate policy, influence public opinion, make decisions and stay in power.
Watch "The Persuaders" on Tuesday, Nov. 9, at 9 p.m. ET on PBS (check local listings). Then, join producer Rachel Dretzin online Wednesday, Nov. 10, at Noon ET to discuss the program.
Submit your questions and comments before or during the discussion.
Editor's Note: washingtonpost.com moderators retain editorial control
over Live Online discussions and choose the most relevant questions for guests and hosts; guests and hosts can decline to answer questions.
New York:
We just witnessed an election where the notion of "morals" was indicated as a significant consumer "buying" criteria.
Whether or not that's accurate, will advertising messages begin to reflect this consumer trend? Or, if the "reptillian" in consumers is turning slightly conservative, would brands be well advised to reflect that in at least some of their messages?
Rachel Dretzin: I wouldn't be surprised if you are right, and the new, more morals-based climate begins to influence the kind of advertising we see. However, the "reptilitan brain", as Clotaire Rapaille describes it, goes deeper than what is in the news... back to early childhood experiences and impressions, I doubt that Mr. Rapaille thinks the reptilian brain has been touched by the recent election!
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Chicago, Ill.:
A great job at "personalizing" marketers' struggle to get personal. Should be required viewing for both marketers and consumers. How did producing this documentary effect you, and what in the interviews did you most strongly react to?
Rachel Dretzin: Good question, and I'm glad you enjoyed the show. Producing the documentary was both scary and alot of fun. Scary because it was so clear in our meetings with marketing professionals how seriously they take their mission in society. Many see their brands as emissaries of lifestyle, identity, even spiritual meaning for consumers. The lack of irony in their outlook on this made me realize just how powerful brands have become in our society.
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Anonymous:
Why did you choose Kevin Roberts as an icon of Madison Avenue?
Rachel Dretzin: Aside from being a great character, Kevin Roberts represents some important trends in the advertising industry. He is convinced that he has a "big idea" that can turn brands into objects of devotion, and his enthusiasm and optimism, along with his ambition, make him somewhat emblematic of the attitude of many of the ad execs we met.
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Syracuse, N.Y.:
What is your point of view of advertising's stranglehold on our culture with respect to children?
Rachel Dretzin: I have three small children of my own, and I take this subject very seriously. Dr. Clotaire Rapaille, who is featured in the program, has studied this issue and came up with a somewhat surprising insight. He believes that the content of advertising doesn't effect children as much as the structure. ie: children become used to constant interruptions of stories, lots of short and fast moving "spots" as opposed to long stretches of content, etc. And this makes them less focused, less tolerant of concentrated content. I also worry about my kids starting to think everything is for sale. I constantly remind them that the things that give them the most pleasure in life are not things you can buy in a store.
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Little Rock, Ark.:
As a graphic designer, I subscribe to "Communication Arts." As an alarmed citizen, I also subscribe to "Adbusters." Can you sense my conflict of interest? How many people, do you think, are out there, like me?
Rachel Dretzin: I think many of us feel the way you do. We enjoy good advertising, we enjoy consumerism.. and yet we worry about it. It troubles us, sometimes we feel suffocated by it. But it can be the source of great pleasure for us. We tried to address that conflict in the program, when we talk about how we have all become 'persuaders" because we enjoy the world of marketing so much.
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Charlotte, Vt.:
The increased corporate savvy in marketing to children is distressing to me. Children have lost their connection to the earth and to their childhood as they get caught up in aggressive consumerism, at home, in the school, on the playground. I believe some study noted that over 1/3 of today's children have TVs in their bedrooms. If children don't get enough advertising at home, there's always the school -- soda machines, sponsored teaching materials, fast food chain lunches... With all of the national educational focus being on "No Child Left Behind" with intense pressure on teachers to produce high test scores, who's pressuring the corporations to BACK OFF from our children?
Rachel Dretzin: Unfortunately there isn't much pressure on corporations to back off from children. There are of course small independent activist organizations out there attempting to fight back, but they are a to large extent unable to combat the power of huge corporations that make money off of children,.
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Charleston, S.C.:
Has anyone considered the possible link to what Rapaille thinks ads do to interupt kids thinking and the surge of ADD among kids?
Rachel Dretzin: I think there probably is a connection. You might want to contact Dr. Rapaille's office to see if he has published any material on this subject. I don't have his contact information handy but his company is called Archetype discoveries worldwide, and if you google it I'm sure you can get in touch with them that way.
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Anonymous:
I found it interesting that even marketers confuse the brand promise "intangible" with attributes about the brand...which define the tangible elements (e.g. service, value, quality).
This is classic marketing stuff...it seems like there has been generation of marketers that missed the training in this area. What are your thoughts on the matter?
Rachel Dretzin: I think critic Bob Garfield was probably right when he said in the program that many ads are designed to win awards and get attention from other advertisers instead of to sell products. These are creative people and they get carried away. They exist at something of a remove from the nuts and bolts of selling products.
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Lincoln, Neb.:
Great show. I'm wondering where value and return play into your findings when speaking with the ethereal pitch gurus? As a pitch man myself, return on investment is still the biggest concern of clients and I've seen little evidence that French post-modernist chic-scaping pays off, i.e., Song.
Rachel Dretzin: I think that return on investment is becoming a bigger and bigger issue for advertisers and its one of the reasons that so many agencies are finding themselves in trouble right now. Clients want results and all too often the agencies dont provide them,. On the other hand, its true that its very difficult to measure the impact of advertisements.
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Alexandria, Va.:
Great program -- I enjoyed hearing all the marketers say the things I've often suspected. The Song rollout was particularly interesting.
I was surprised about the politics section of the show. Have you received flak about the statement that Republicans wouldn't talk to FRONTLINE about how they used Axiom direct marketing data, but the Democrats would discuss it?
Rachel Dretzin: Thanks for your kind words about the program. In answer to your question, no we haven't received any flak yet (but then again, the program just aired last night!) I don;t think anyone will be too surprised that the Republicans were closed mouthed about their use of data mining information. They tend to play it very close to the vest, and most journalists have come to expect that from them these days.
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Chicago, Ill.:
Did you find that consumers are concerned about the depth and type of information that is used or did they find some value in having marketing communications tailored to them? For marketers, at what point do privacy issues hinder what they hope to do?
Rachel Dretzin: I think consumers are ambivalent about targeted ads. On the one hand as you point out, it cuts through the clutter. We get ads that are ostensibly more relevant instead of wading through ads that we have no interest in. On the other hand, it is a little creepy to feel that marketers know us so well. And sometimes they are off anyway. For example I am a mother of small children and am constantly getting catalogues and offers for diapers, strollers, etc... most of which I have no need for or interest in. I resent that that is how I am "seen" by marketers-- as part of the mommy market-- when I am also so many other things!!
As for your question about privacy, it is indeed an issue. Axciom, for example, is extremely sensitive to accusations of violating privacy rights and carefully protects its information on consumers.
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Princeton, N.J.:
Aside from Frank Luntz, are there any other researchers studying "what words work?"
Rachel Dretzin: I don't know of any others, but this is a big field and I wouldn't be surprised if other market researchers study language.
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Dearborn, Mich.:
Are we in for a whole new level of marketing in the 2008 presidential election? It seems like the "experiment" worked for the Republicans. People like Frank Luntz may begin to exert much more influence over not only the communication but the actual policy of politicians. What do you think?
Rachel Dretzin: I think you're probably right. This stuff does work, and the Democrats are already trying to catch up to the Republicans and do better marketing and communication.
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Seaside, Ore.:
How can we get the marketers out of the political
system? Luntz is one scary guy.
Also. Who recorded and wrote the song played
at the end of the program which said "everything's
going to be all right when you go shopping?"
Thanks.
Rachel Dretzin: The song at the end of the program is called "Shopping" and was written and performed by the Canadian group Bare Naked Ladies.
As for your question about getting marketers out of the political system, good luck. I think for better or worse, they are here to stay.
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Alexandria, Va.:
Ms. Dretzin,
Thank you for being on here. I was not aware of the Frontline program, "The Persuaders" being on Tuesday night (11/9) but it appears that it may be on again on Friday (11/12). As a student of pop anthropology and branding, I would really like to see the program. Will it appear again on Friday?
Many thanks!
Rachel Dretzin: The show will definitely be repeated but the repeat schedule varies depending on where you live,. You should call your local PBS station and get the repeat schedule from them.
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Silver Spring, Md.:
I remember reading an article in Wired magazine a year or more about about the future of advertising. They suggested that, with a broadband TV, one day soon a viewer, while watching a sitcom or any other program, will be able to "mouse" across the screen and pop-up information on how to buy absolutely everything on the set. Like an actress's earrings? Click on them and you'll go the company's Web site. Like the car? Click and you're there. Like the rug? One click at your at Pottery Barn.
Long story short -- did you hear of this future trend while making this film? Thanks.
-- A weary, wary consumer
Rachel Dretzin: I did hear about that trend or something quite similar. And it certainly sounds plausible, even likely that technology will soon allow it. I empathize with your weariness ! (and wariness.)
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Washington, D.C.:
As an ad agency veteran and a long-time marketer, I greatly appreciated the manner in which the program gave viewers a behind-the-scenes look at my industry. However, I feel like I must have missed something, because at the end of the program a conclusion was leapt to that I didn't see coming. Can you explain?
Rachel Dretzin: Which conclusion are you referring to ? The idea that we are all persuaders?
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Santa Fe, N.M.:
As someone who helps solo business owners to put words to the intangible and emotional aspect of their services, I was delighted to see these same themes emerging as core concerns for the "big guys".
Based on your work producing this documentary, do you sense a fundamental shift in how companies view their customers, and the degree to which those companies believe that that the public can be influenced or sold?
Rachel Dretzin: The rhetoric of today's advertisers is that the consumer is king. Consumers have more power and choice than ever before, with Tivo, the internet, and hundreds of TV channels to choose from. So companies and advertisers talk alot about "listening" to the consumer, about respecting the consumer, about not talking down to the consumer. But what does that really mean, I wonder? How much does that kind of listening result in products that really reflect peoples needs and desires?
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Baltimore, Md.:
Excellent program. Do you know of the best ways to get in touch with the experts in the program or their businesses?
Rachel Dretzin:
Most of them can be located online. Clotaire Rapaille's company is called Archetype Discoveries Worldwide,. Andy Spade is at the kate Spade company in NYC. Frank Luntz runs Luntz Research in Virginia. And Song Airlines is based in Atlanta. Are there any others you are interested in contacting?
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Shawnee, Kan.:
Just a fantastic documentary! I plan to watch it again.
I thought at the end you'd have an update on Song, but we never heard anything after the Las Vegas retreat. Was the campaign abandoned or modified? Where are they now?
I thought the campaign was well-packaged and trendy, but never got to the point. If I didn't know, I would have never guessed what they were selling. How can that be so obvious to my untrained eye and these high-priced marketing firms don't see it?
Rachel Dretzin: Song is still going and their campaign is proceeding as planned. However their fortunes are bound to Delta's ,and as you may know, Delta is in real crisis, having just narrowly averted bankruptcy. If Delta goes down, Song goes with it. As for your insight about Song's campaign, I think that many marketers just get caught up in the "art" of what they are creating, rather than the nuts and bolts of what people call "return on investment"-- or: is this ad actually selling products?
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City, State:
Douglas Rushkoff asks, "What happens when advertisers assume the roles of our writers, journalists and entertainers?" How would you answer him?
Rachel Dretzin: My answer is that our culture gets "blandified." It gets flattened out, and becomes entertaining rather than stimulating or challenging. Culture is dulled by the influence of advertising.
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Naperville, Ill.:
Some would argue that--given the current emphasis on price and such tools as internet reverse auctions -- the brand is dead. There's a recent piece in "Wired" magazine -- itself a brand -- that makes this case. In the documentary Song seemed to face a challenge that branding couldn't overcome. What sense of this -- or perhaps a fear of this -- did you pick up from those you interviewed?
Rachel Dretzin: There's an anxiety out there among advertisers that I imagine has always been around.. No one really knows what works or why. And there's always something new coming around the corner to threaten the hegemony of brands. As for whether the brand is dead, I would answer not yet. Brands like Nike, Starbucks, Target, etc are still extremely successful at creating an indentity that resonates with consumers. But are we on our way there? Certainly the internet and all that comes with it gives consumers more tools to make decisions based on hard information about price and quality, so who knows.
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New York, N.Y.:
No question, just a comment:
I'm too finicky a viewer to do rave reviews. I'll make an exception just this once.
This is quite possibly the best TV show I've seen this year. It was a well-researched, beautifully presented, and utterly fascinating view of a subject that we don't pay sufficient attention to: our disastrous addiction to wanting, to spending, to owning.
Because PBS has no commercials. I didn't take a bathroom break for the entire 90 minute duration of the thing!
Bravo Frontline! Bravo PBS!
Rachel Dretzin: Thank you for those wonderfully encouraging words! So much work goes into making these programs that it is heartening to know you have made an impact on viewers.
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City, State:
Political consultant Frank Luntz tells his clients that, "80 percent of our life is emotion and only 20 percent is intellect. I am much more interested in how you feel than how you think." Contrast this with Thomas Jefferson's notion that democracy requires an "informed citizenry." What is the potential impact of Luntz's political strategy recommendations on the health of democracy?
Rachel Dretzin: I think we are already seeing the impact of Luntz' preference for the "gut" over the rational.. and Dr. Rapaille's preference for the "reptilian" brain over the "intellectual" brain. In politics and in commercial marketing, it is our emotions that are played to most. Look at this past presidential campaign and the kind of emotional hot buttons that were pushed in voters from both parties.
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Northville, Mich.:
First off, the show was great and so is the Web site. I look forward to having our entire marketing/strategy team watch the show and discuss it.
My questions:
1. Do you think that Frank Luntz is the single person who we can say won the election for Bush? It sure seems that way. particularly with single phrase "War on Terror" replacing "War in Iraq."
2. Is Dr. Rapaille really like that? I could not stop smiling during his scenes. As a practical thinking person, it was very hard for me to understand how he (if he is really like that) could be that convincing to top executives.
3. Why do you think a company like Saturn sort of "fizzled out" after several years of being hailed as a great brand? Is it the product? The parent company (GM)? Or message that could not be sustained?
Rachel Dretzin: Frank Luntz was not an adviser to Bush in this past election although certainly he has had an impact on the Republican party's communication strategies. Others like Karl Rove played a much greater role in Bush's campaign.
Dr. Rapaille really is like that. I think corporations are charmed by him and respond to his way of cutting through the pretense and being blunt. (His French accent doesn't hurt, either.)
As for Saturn, I really don't know the answer. There is so much ad clutter out there that only a few companies-- the greats like Nike, Starbucks, etc.._- have been able to sustain a lasting reign over their competition.
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Charleston, S.C.:
If a second question is allowed:
How much and what kind of market research did Frontline do before producing this program. And what factors came into play in the decision?
Rachel Dretzin: We spent about six months researching the subject before we ever turned on a camera... we met dozens of advertising executives, PR professionals, and market researchers, and read lots and lots of articles and books on the subject before deciding what to film. The decision of who to include depended on lots of variables: if the person had something valuable to say, if they were colorful and interesting characters, and last but not lease, if they were willing to give us access!
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Chicago, Ill.:
Was there at any point during the piece on Delta's Song that somebody said "The emperor has no clothes?"
Rachel Dretzin: Not out loud, but I wouldn't be surprised if a few people thought it. However I should add that almost every one at Song that we met had great faith and enthusiasm in the company and what they were trying to do, so I don't know if there were too many crises of faith there.
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