PBS: Beyond Brown: Pursuing the Promise
Stanley Nelson and Marcia Smith
Executive Producers
Thursday, May 13, 2004; 11:00 a.m. ET
"Beyond Brown: Pursuing the Promise" marks the 50th anniversary of the historic Supreme Court ruling Brown vs. Board of Education by examining the legal battle that ended the nation's system of sanctioned apartheid, and the legacy, impact and influence of that decision in the 20th century.
Executive Producers Stanley Nelson and Marcia Smith will be online Thursday, May 13 at 11 a.m. ET to discuss Brown vs. Board and the documentary.
'Beyond Brown: Pursuing the Promise' airs on PBS Wednesday, May 12 at 11 p.m. (check your local listing).
The transcript follows.
Editor's Note: washingtonpost.com moderators retain editorial control
over Live Online discussions and choose the most relevant questions for guests and hosts; guests and hosts can decline to answer questions.
Stanley Nelson and Marcia Smith: Hi Everybody! Stanley Nelson and Marcia Smith here. We're glad you've joined us in this conversation.
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Austin, Texas:
I honor and understand the meaning of Brown vs Topeka Board of Education. However, I do not understand the glossing over of facts in order to "sell" the story. There is still a story about Lucinda Todd and her efforts that haven't been told. There are other plaintiffs in this landmark case. Let's start off by commemorating "Brown et al vs Topeka Board of Education." What about the plaintiff Darlene Brown? Why wasn't her name listed first? Alphabetically speaking, doesn't "D" come before "O" as in Oliver Brown? Thank you for your attention to my query?
Stanley Nelson and Marcia Smith: You are right -- there are very many stories to be told relative to Brown v. Board of Education. Our intent in producing Beyond Brown was not only to commemorate this historic case, but to look at where we are with respect to race and education today. There will be a lot of commemorative activities in the next few weeks, as the actual 50th anniversary is May 17, next Monday.
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Hamilton, Ontario, Canada:
I am an American citizen, who just happens to live in Canada.
I am 100% in favour of the Brown ruling. However, I am curious as to whether there was a down-side to the ruling, or was it all positive?
Stanley Nelson and Marcia Smith: I don't think there was a downside to the ruling as such, but i don't think the federal government, or society at large, was or is sufficiently committed to implementing it. But there was a debate even then (which continues today) about an interesting up-side to all-black schools back then -- the fact that the teachers had high expectations for black students. See the video memory of Vernon Jordan on our website, pbs.org/beyondbrown. It's under "community discussion."
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Concord, NH:
What is equality in education? I know the Court inserted some social science on this question in footnote 11 of the opinion, but I don't know how relevant that is today when we have de jure equality in the schools themselves but de facto inequality because of, among other things, backsliding over the summer in reading and math skills, etc. among a sizable minority population (and some whites in places like Appalachia). Does true equality require us to essentially remove these kids from their homes and neighborhoods so that they can keep up with other children?
Stanley Nelson and Marcia Smith: No -- I think that would be disastrous -- not to mention the fact that it wouldn't work (witness the experience of Native Americans or the aboriginal population in Australia). I think we have to make a real commitment to it, and understand that that means directing resources where they are most needed.
Also check out our website under "long road ahead" -- the section on money.
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Virginia:
I haven't seen the show. Will it re-air! Will it re-air on the 17th?!
Stanley Nelson and Marcia Smith: Not sure -- you can check on our website, www.pbs.org/beyondbrown under "check local listings"
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Jackson, Miss.:
Why is it important that we have true "intergration"? Many believe that intergration was the downfall of many black communities throughout the nation. Those once thriving communities are now our ghettos of today. Why can't we just work to ensure that all schools are equally funded and that all children receive a quality education?
Stanley Nelson and Marcia Smith: That's an interesting question. Part of the strategy in 1954 was to force equalization of resources through integration, and in fact that has never really happened. I think we really need to strive for both: true equality and true integration.
Part of what's happened is that as cities have become blacker and browner, support for public education has become weaker.
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Suffolk, Va.:
With racial lines always drawn around communities how can real change be made in education when many of the schools with the biggest educational problems are in inner cities or rural areas where the best and brightest dare not venture? How do you raise the bar everywhere?
Stanley Nelson and Marcia Smith: There are a lot of ideas about this -- including giving merit pay to experienced teachers to work in the neediest schools. I also think it's time to think about a much bigger federal role in education. Part of the problem (see the NY story in our piece -- "It's all about the money" on the website) is that richer communities can afford to spend more money on education -- so if we continue to fund education through local property taxes, the inner cities can't catch up.
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Milwaukee, Wis.:
I was appalled and frightened at what our current administration is doing to this country! I am rasing my two grandchildren ages 4 & 6.
Is this test in the midwest? And if so where can you obtain a (MOCK) or at the very least information on what this consists of, so those of us who are able can home train?
This is the worst information I have come across since taking responsibility 2 years ago. Just what will this country of our have to offer for our futrue adults of color? Its just another form of systematic SLAVERY!
Stanley Nelson and Marcia Smith: Check our website for a link to your state department of education (www.pbs.org/beyondbrown, under "resources") to see the status of testing in your state.
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Washington, D.C.:
I've just watched the Brown special on PBS. I'm interested in the FCAT testing that the honor student who received a scholarship to a 4-year university could not pass. What sort of questioning was on the test that she could not answer? Was it the wording of the tests or that culturally, inner city kids could not relate to the form of questioning?
I thought the film would have done well to have included that information.
Thank you,
Michael
Stanley Nelson and Marcia Smith: It wasn't wording or "culture" -- it's that she was never taught the material. Ashley Johnson attended a school with fewer certified teachers, fewer experienced teachers, more substitute teachers, bigger classes than other schools. Unfortunately, in most cities, the educational system's resources are not deployed where they're most needed.
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Ossining, N.Y.:
Hello there, I fully enjoyed the show and even had my 15 year old watch it with me since we've had our share of ups and downs with the Westchester, NY school system. In fact he attends Hastings Middle School which was profiled on your show, but in a special education program that is located in the bottom of the school in the basement. He is bussed there from home. My question, why do you think America goes to this length to suppress black & latino children by putting roadblocks/stumbling blocks in their way? The point is MONEY makes the world go around these days unfortunately and even if you come from a middle class background you're still discriminated against. Enjoyed the show and I am upset and saddened for all children who have to suffer at the hands of greedy politicians and racist white folk.
Stanley Nelson and Marcia Smith: We're glad you enjoyed the show, and feel for your situation. Make sure you get all the support you can. Find other parents like you and fight!
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Woodstock, NY:
I've just finished reading Charles Clotfelter's new book "After Brown" in which he argues that shortly after the decision desegregation in schools increased sharply for a time and then started to retreat for a number of reasons as financially-sound families moved out from cities and into suburbs, the rise of multicultural curricula in universities to name two. Do you agree with that assessment and if we are retreating into "ethnic cliques" what do you think can be done to reverse that trend?
Stanley Nelson and Marcia Smith: I do think we are still very isolated by ethnic group, and students are too. See www.pbs.org/beyondbrown, under "Long Road Ahead" there's a section called "do we still believe in integration?"
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Fairfax, Va.:
I think it is very difficult for some people to understand that although times have changed, we are still have problems with race and educations beyond black and white! The public needs to recognize that social, economic and cultural conflicts and issues that occur in our classroom do reflect the growing multicultural society. In your filmming, did you address these issues or did any experts express how brown v. board sets the groundwork for other ethnic minorities in the classroom (ex. Latinos, Asian Americans, new immigrants, etc.)
Stanley Nelson and Marcia Smith: Yes! Hope you get to catch the show. We do address the experiences of some Latino and Asian-American students in LA and NY -- and please see the vignette of Gary Okihiro, in which he describes going to segregated schools in Hawaii. Check the website for re-broadcasts in your area: www.pbs.org/beyondbrown
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Nashville, Tenn.:
I just have to say that I was touched by your program. As a 34 year old woman, I can honestly say that I was not aware of much of what I saw on your program. I guess many of us grow up and choose to live with blinders? I do not have children but I work with them by creating various events where they can grow by exploring life and its possibilities. I realize now that I can do so much more...and focus some of the fun activities on education as well. Also, I never knew how certain parts of our cities were funded by taxes dollars (sorry, I have lived ignorantly for a long time). I have a bookshelf FULL of kids books that I need to donate to one of our area schools. Thanks again...I'll stay connect now for sure!
Stanley Nelson and Marcia Smith: Thanks -- that's nice to hear. It's true that all of us can start at home!
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Alexandria, Va.:
How do I connect with any groups working to change the standardized testing methods used in Virginia?
Stanley Nelson and Marcia Smith: Not sure, but I would search the web for education reform groups in your state.
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Athens, Ohio:
1. Do any other cities have programs similar to the METCO program in Boston?
2 Has there been any recent court cases that challenge school district lines such as the "Milliken" case in Michigan in the 1970's?
Stanley Nelson and Marcia Smith: Some other cities still have voluntary busing for integration, though i'm not sure whether they cross district lines. also not sure about successors to Milliken case. I'd check with the NAACP Legal Defense Fund or the Harvard Civil Rights Project.
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Houston, Tex.:
While Brown v. Board set major legal and constitutional precedents for integration, it did indeed leave "major stones" unturned, and school districts continue to strive to "turn" them. "Seperate but equal" is no longer the rule of the law, but it does still exist in other forms, as you point out.
It also exists in the community of people with disabliities still. Why?
Public Education needs to be open and available to everyone. But that has major implications, especially as we continue to learn about our "differences" as well as our "similarities". And education funding is and has indeed been "taking a hit".
Isn't there a more workable solution to all of this than is or has been tried before? Thank you.
Stanley Nelson and Marcia Smith: I don't know. But it will require a serious commitment on the part of our elected leaders -- meaning they have to be willing to put education at the top of the national agenda and put some money behind it over the long term.
It does have major implications to say that the society will meet everyone's educational needs, regardless of financial or disability status or race or national origin. But isn't that what it's supposed to be about?
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Washington, D.C.:
IS there a correlation between upper-class black families and lower-class black families in term of educational achievement?
Stanley Nelson and Marcia Smith: Not sure what you mean by correlation, but class is related to educational achievement for all racial groups. Check out our fact sheets at www.pbs.org/beyondbrown
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Nederland, Colo.:
You just said "as cities have become blacker and browner, support for public education has become weaker". This could be very informative. Is it supported by quantitative opinion studies? Does it mean "public education" is increasingly seen by the white as primarily serving the black and brown, or that the white have more private alternatives, or that black and brown themselves support public education less, or what? Thank you.
Stanley Nelson and Marcia Smith: I primarily mean that as white middle-class families have increasingly withdrawn from urban public schools (e.g. in NYC, white students are now less than 15% of the school population), there is weaker political support for public education. As for poor people with few options, many are so desperate to get a quality education for their kids that they support vouchers as a way to buy out of public schools -- so that weakens support for public education also.
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Albuquerque, N.M.:
Hi--
How did you finance the doc? Any international broadcasters lined up so far?
Stanley Nelson and Marcia Smith: The doc was financed by PBS and several national foundations. No international broadcasters yet!
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Washington, D.C.:
If we are to get a true picture of how far public education has come in the fifty years since school segregation was outlawed, isn't it imperative that we consider the quality and quantity of educational services that are delivered to the incarcerated children/youth of our nation?
Have we forgotten the fact that in many instances children/youth are entitled to a free and appropriate education irrespective of their geographic whereabouts assuming they were not sentenced as adults, etc?
Lastly, if justice dictates that "separate is not equall", then why don't we integrate our thoughts and concerns about the need for excellent educational opportunities for all classifications of students in America?
Thank you for considering the aforementioned.
Stanley Nelson and Marcia Smith: Right. We're especially concerned about the rising dropout rate among African American boys, which is happening at the same time incarceration rates are rising. See fact sheets on the website about testing.
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Anonymous:
How long did it take to film the documentary and will you be doing a follow-up? Do you think it is important to track trends and the issues in future years?
Stanley Nelson and Marcia Smith: We started production in January of this year. We very much hope to do some longer pieces on some of the issues raised in the film, like the growing trend toward high-stakes testing.
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Stanley Nelson and Marcia Smith: Goodbye from Marcia Smith and Stanley Nelson of Firelight Media. Thank you all for the great discussion!
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