PBS Innovation: Crash Site Secrets
Greg Feith and Jared Lipworth
Aviation Expert and Series Producer
Wednesday, April 07, 2004; 1:00 p.m ET
Much is learned from crash site investigations and reasons for airline disasters. The information can often lead to future improvements of the way we fly and the structural changes in aircrafts for better safety conditions. PBS Innovation's "Crash Site Secrets" documents how present and future flight safety has benefitted from the history of accidents by improving technology and communication. The program features how the black box became standard after accidents in the 1950s, the installation of Doppler radar was a response to wind shear accidents in the 1980s and how the traffic control device (TCAS) has eliminated all mid-air collisions in the U.S. since 1990.
Aviation expert Greg Feith and series producer Jared Lipworth will be online Wednesday, April 7 at 1 p.m. ET to discuss the documentary.
Feith is an award-winning former Senior Air Safety Investigator with the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) with a wide range of aviation investigative and safety experience. He has investigated hundreds of general aviation and air transport airplane accidents over more than 20 years. During his government service with the NTSB, he served as the Investigator-In-Charge (IIC) of the NTSB “Go-Team,” and was either the IIC or U.S. Accredited Representative for various notable accident investigations.
Lipworth is the series producer for Thirteen's new technology series, "Innovation." He served as series producer for the Emmy-nominated "Secrets of the Dead III" and coordinating producer for all of the department's projects, including "Warrior Challenge," "Secrets of the Pharaohs," "Frontier House," the Emmy Award-winning "Secret Life of the Brain," "Echoes from the White House," and "Savage Planet."
The transcript follows.
Editor's Note: washingtonpost.com moderators retain editorial control
over Live Online discussions and choose the most relevant questions for guests and hosts; guests and hosts can decline to answer questions.
Greg Feith and Jared Lipworth: Jared: Hi everyone. Thanks for joining us today to talk about Crash Site Secrets, which aired last night on PBS as part of our new technology series INNOVATION. The series features new technologies that are changing our lives. For more info about the series and the upcoming programs, check out our web site at www.pbs.org/innovation.
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California:
Is it true that airline accidents have decreased dramatically following September 2001?
If so, could you please explain as much as possible what the reasons are believed to be for this decline?
Thank you.
Greg Feith and Jared Lipworth: The accidents rate for "major" accidents, i.e. commercial carriers in the US have declined because of the reduced number of flights since 911, but also because of increased technology and improved pilot training - so it is a combination of factors but in large part it is better equipment and training - this holds true in the US, the foreign carriers don't fly as much thus their risk exposure is less.
Greg
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Ann Arbor, Mich.:
I'm looking for the name of the company in England that is working on the "smart connector" for airline electrical systems.
It was featured on the program that aired on the PBS station in Detroit on Tues 4/5/04.
Greg Feith and Jared Lipworth: Jared: The name of the company is Phoenix Aviation Technologies and they are located in Surrey, England.
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Cambridge, Mass.:
Hi, I have 2 questions:
For many years I have been fearful that terrorists would start using missiles against commercial jets. After the incident in Nairobi, is anything being done to counteract these kind of attacks?
In your fascinating Innovation program last night I think you said that the general public seems to want cheaper airfares/entertainment more than safety. Not me! Please give me some advice on what the general flying public can do to make the airlines safer?
Many thanks, Claire
Greg Feith and Jared Lipworth: Claire -
There are systems that can be installed on aircraft to counter a missle attack - our military aircraft have them and so does Air Force 1. However, evry time you put a new piece of equipment on a commercial aircraft there are long term ramifications for pilot pilot training, system maintenace, etc., that will cause the price of the ticket to escalate - that is not to say that it isn't a good idea, the the added cost may not have a return on investment when there ways to prevent such an attack.
Question 2 - you should provide you legislators with you concerns and support for added safety technology - they need to support and push the regulators to move the airlines forward in a proactive amd timely way
Greg
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Vail, Colo.:
Greg-
I have a question specific to wind-shear along the Front Range of the Rockies. I am one of those lunatics that likes to fly sailplanes up into the lee-waves in this area. Is the shear you described at DIA generated from thunderstorms or is wave effect reaching out that far from the mountains? Also do you have any thoughts about the United 737 crash at Colorado Springs that was on a strong wave day? Enjoyed the show.
Greg Feith and Jared Lipworth: Being from Colorado and flying there myself there are two dynamic effects occurring depending on the type of weather conditions at the time. The shear can be a result of either the turbulent airflow over the mountains when the wind is from the West - either Northwest or Southwest. The airmass moves or flows up and over the mountains and the disruption to the smooth flow can last for miles as the airmass moves east. Also, the outflow from thunderstorms as far as a 100 miles away can also result in strong gusty wind conditions that cause shear.
Thanks for the question
Greg
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Annapolis, Md.:
Greg, I missed it last night - had a band rehearsal. It's repeated at midnight tonight. A mutual friend in Ft. Worth reports that it was pretty good. Should I nap early and stay up late? Doug H.
Greg Feith and Jared Lipworth: Jared: As series producer, I say that you definitely should nap early and stay up late to watch the program. As a very informative and entertaining participant, Greg says, "Heck Yes!!"
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Annapolis, Md.:
Any opinions to share on how NTSB Chairman Blakey could so quickly announce that the AA587 fatal in Queens on 11/12/01 was an accident and not a crime? There was no time for her team to have reviewed any data. This was only 2 months after 9/11.
Greg Feith and Jared Lipworth: At the time of AAL 587 I think Chairman Blakey was trying to reassure the public that this was in fact an accident rather than a terrorist act - 911 put a new kind of fear of flying and it was likley that she was trying to eleviate that fear especially since the accident occurred right before Thanksgiving.
It was premature for her to make the comments since the investigation process wasn't not very far along but it is understandable what she was doing.
Greg
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Salem, NJ:
What is the black box used in aircraft made of that enables it to withstand the heat and impact of a crash?
Greg Feith and Jared Lipworth: The black box which is really painted orange so it can readily identified has an aluminum outer shell but the recorder is encased in a titanium shell with a water jacket inside to absorb high heat. The recorders will eventuallly be damaged by high heat if they stay in the high heat source longer than about 30 minutes.
Greg
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Roanoke, Va.:
What exactly does the black box do in an airplane? And what does it look like, is it really black?
Greg Feith and Jared Lipworth: The term "black box" was coined because is was electronic. The cockpit voice recorder (CVR) and the Digital Flight Data Recorder (DFDR) ar painted orange for easy identification. The CVR records all conversations and noises in the cockpit - the DFDR records anywhere from 17 to over 200 different parameters of the aircraft system, including the pitch, roll, yaw, airspeed, heading, etc. This enables the investigator to have a complete picture of the the motion of the airplane and what the pilots were doing at the time of the accident.
Greg
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Rice Lake, Wis.:
How old are most planes in use? I've read that because they are designed to be so reliable, planes are used for decades.
Greg Feith and Jared Lipworth: The average age of the world's fleets is approximately 18 years. Planes are indeed designed to be durable, and because of the way they are maintained and serviced, they have a workable lifespan of 30 years or more. If we took care of our cars the way the avaiation industry is required to take care of their planes, our cars would last 30 or 40 years too. Though we might get tired of the color...
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Knoxville, Tenn.:
In the beginning of flights passengers are asked to turn off all cell phones, cd players, etc. Why is this? Will the equipment actually interfere with the plane?
Greg Feith and Jared Lipworth: The reason that electronic equipment is required to be off is because the wiring for the aircraft is strung along the sidewalls, either above or below the windows. The electronic signal from a cell phone or other transmitting device could introduce a "spurious" signal that could electronic flight instruments or controls. More airplanes today are "electric" also called "fly-by-wire" so errant electrical signals could be dangerous.
Greg
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Dallas, Texas :
Do you believe in the NTSB system that lets industry representatives participate in investigations, but prohibits participation by representatives of the familes of those injured or killed?
Would you support allowing an observer to at least monitor investigations on behalf of people who were injured and have the same access to information as industry representatives?
Greg Feith and Jared Lipworth: The "party" system that the NTSB uses is a good system because it provides for a natural check and balance approach. The information gathered and the interpreation of the information from the various parties, i.e, the airline, the manufacturer, the unions, etc. enables the Safety BOard to insure that they have gathered all of the facts, conditions, and circumstances. The down side is that while this system works very well for "major" accidents, the smaller general aviation accident investigations lack representation of "all" parties - i.e, the pilot, or in some cases the operator. I think the system should be reviewed to for the GA folks.
Greg
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Washington, D.C.:
When does the show reair and on what channels (since we get several PBS affilates here in Metro DC)
Thanks
Greg Feith and Jared Lipworth: The best way to find out when the program will air is to check the PBS website (www/pbs.org) for broadcast information. If you can't find it there, check your local station's web site (www.weta.com) or give them a call. For starters, here is a list of rebroadcasts from WETA:
Tuesday, Apr 6, 9:00 pm, WETA TV 26
Wednesday, Apr 7, 7:00 am, WETA PLUS
Wednesday, Apr 7, 9:00 am, WETA PLUS
Wednesday, Apr 7, 11:00 am, WETA PLUS
Wednesday, Apr 7, 1:00 pm, WETA PLUS
Wednesday, Apr 7, 3:00 pm, WETA PLUS
Wednesday, Apr 7, 5:00 pm, WETA PLUS
Thursday, Apr 8, 1:00 am, WETA TV 26
Saturday, Apr 10, 3:00 am, WETA PRIME
Saturday, Apr 10, 3:00 am, WETA TV 26
Sunday, Apr 11, 2:00 pm, WETA TV 26
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Thousand Oaks, Calif.:
My sister is scared to death of flying because she's convinced her flight will be the next plane to crash. How valid are her concerns? Are there any warning signs to look for that there might problems on a flight (not that you can do anything of course)?
Greg Feith and Jared Lipworth: I fly both on commercial and in my airplane almost daily - it scares me more to drive on the highway.
Commercial aviation has a very good safety record and it has been almost 3 years since American 587 crashed in New York..
The only advice I have to reduce the fear for your sister is to tell her that the chances of winning the lottery are better than her probability of being on a commercial aircraft that has an accident.
Greg
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Virginia:
What was the world worst air disaster? Cayman Islands?
Greg Feith and Jared Lipworth: The worst air disaster involved 2 747 aircraft in Tenerife with over 500 fatalities.
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Mt. Lebanon, Pa.:
Feith. Are you related to that chickenhawk over in the Defense (State?) department? If so, how are you related? Curious. He's in the business of causing massive upheaval and you're in the business of investigating it!
If not, my regards. Looking forward to the discussion.
Thanks much. Electrical Engineer in Forensics.
Greg Feith and Jared Lipworth: NO!
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Washington, D.C.:
There was an Air Florida crash in the icy waters of the Potomac 20 years ago in which one child survived, I'd like to know what happened to him.
Greg Feith and Jared Lipworth: Jared: The crash you are refering to was Air Florida flight 90 from Fort Lauderdale to Washington National Airport on January 13, 1982. The flight went down in the Potomac in blizzard conditions, and I believe five survivors were rescued from the plane. As far as finding out what happened to them goes, I think your best bet is going to be to do some research on the internet to find out names. A quick Google search came up with a lot of references to the crash, so you might have some luck.
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Boston, Mass.:
Re: Cost-benefit analysis. I wasn't born yesterday but still it was a bit too blunt for me to see how the FAA weighed decisions in terms of cost vs. lives saved. Shouldn't they be thinking "if we can save one life this safety upgrade is worth it"? I can imagine the airlines looking at it from the commercial point of view but the FAA?
Also, doesn't the cost-benefit scenario change when there -is- a crash that could have been prevented with some safety upgrade? I remember watching a program about the Swissair crash, where they were saying that fire-resistant insulation should have been installed years ago, but it took an accident of this magnitude to get the agencies moving on its testing and deployment. Doesn't this kind of an attitude lead us into a "chasing our tail" approach? Thanks!
Greg Feith and Jared Lipworth: Unfortunately we could have a very lengthy discussion about the price of safety and a human life. However, to keep it short I will say that the mandate of the FAA is to promote SAFE aviation AND commerce. By regulation the FAA must study the economic impact that new safety devices will have on a manufacture, carrier, pilot, etc.
Accidents only impact the cost benefit scenario from the standpoint of insurance and the effect that the carrier who had the accident will suffer by reduced passenger carriage - Valujet is an example.
Greg
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Atlanta, Ga.:
Yes, but what about the wiring?
Greg Feith and Jared Lipworth: Well, the wiring issues are certainly a concern that the airline industry is aware of and trying to deal with. Much depends on the maintenance of the plans, as well as on innovative new safety measures like the wiring monitoring system mentioned in last night's episode.
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Washington, D.C.:
I know that it is technically possible for a wide body jet to fly itself from takeoff to landing (wasn't this possible back in say 1972 with the L1011?) but do you ever see the day when we have a pilotless cockpit? Or will we always have a human steward to make sure that nothing goes haywire? For instances, the Metro here in DC operates automatically and the operator is only responsible for safety...
Greg Feith and Jared Lipworth: I don't believe that I will see a pilotless in my lifetime - as long as there is a possibility that a system could malfunction or fail, and immediate intervention is required, then a pilot will be necessary to be in a position to take the corrective action. Automation does have its limitations and the human pilot will need to be there to handle automation's shortcomings.
Greg
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New Oxford, Pa:
Since September 11 how have safety features in planes been changed? Also, have any been added that were not there before?
Greg Feith and Jared Lipworth: The one thing we have to remember about 911 was that the loss of those four aircraft were no accident - they were intentional acts that are being handled by the FBI and others as a crime. Therefore, the impact that 911 had on aviation safety was interms of security to prevent a similar 911 event rather than a new "safety" device like TCAS or GPWS.
Greg
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Salem, Va.:
Do you think all the heightened security at the airports are really protecting us during flying?
Thanks,
Sarah
Greg Feith and Jared Lipworth: Jared: Although this is not an area we explored in great detail in the program, it seems that quite a bit has been done in the US to increase safety and screening at airports. Perhaps we'll do a whole Innovation program about that in the future, but our expertise from this episode really deals more with the safety of planes themselves.
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Rice Lake, Wis.:
It seems that after every crash the media goes nuts in their search for "the black box". What exactly is this black box, and how reliable and important are they in reconstructing a plane crash?
Greg Feith and Jared Lipworth: For a major accident, the black boxes provide information to the investigators that could give a "quicker" story line to the event that took place that led to the accident - the media knows that when the NTSB gets the information from the CVR and FDR, they have a pretty good idea of what happened in the accident within days rather than months or years - the media is all about the "story" now not 4 months from now.
Greg
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East Haven, Conn.:
As Mr Feith and his teammembers touch down in their aircraft - an apparent larger investigation, he makes the statement, "It's Showtime". Sort of insensitive don't you think towards the families of the dead with a camera in your face.
KO
Greg Feith and Jared Lipworth: Jared: That is a phrase Greg often uses when it's time to get down to business, and is absolutely meant as "let's go to work." It was not done for the camera, and I think it is clear from his dedication and expertise that he is particularly sensitive to the horrors he often has to face.
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Somewhere, USA:
What do you do to take care of yourselves after having seen so many gruesome, tragic accident scenes?
Greg Feith and Jared Lipworth: Aircraft accident investigation is the worst side of aviation - you have to condition yourself emotionally to block out the tragic circumstances so that you can do the job effectively and efficiently - doctors often have to do the same thing.
Greg
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Fisher, Mn:
Have they figure out the reason for Sen. Welstone's plane crash?
Greg Feith and Jared Lipworth: The Wellstone investigation is complete and the report is available on the NTSB web site under recent accident reports. The cause was attributed to the pilots allowing the airspeed to get too slow and the airplane aerodynamically stalled at a low altitude.
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Silver Spring, Md.:
How can we get our airlines to install bomb-resistant cargo containers? Lobbying for legislation?
Greg Feith and Jared Lipworth: Jared: Lobbying is certainly an option, but at the end of the day, it will come down to cost-benefit analysis. Like in many other industries the various parties (airlines, manufacturers, FAA etc.) have to weigh the cost and impact to determine whether things like bob-resistant cargo containers are the right way to go, or whether there are other options that may be cheaper and/or have more impact.
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Atlanta, Ga:
A Swiss Air flight that crashed with a fire onboard was traced to a wiring fault. What if anything is being done to improve the wire systems in aircraft?
Greg Feith and Jared Lipworth: Wiring on airplanes is a concern for a number of reasons - like with any wire, over time the insulation becomes brittle and cracks and breaks, wires short out, etc. New technology is always coming forward to improve the wiring and insulation - Airplanes "breath" - they expand and contract everytime the fuselage is pressurized and depressurized - thus the wire has to flexible to stretch and contract and not rub against anything that could compromise the integrity of the insulation. System design and wire technology will improve the safety of wiring.
Greg
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Silver Spring, Md.:
Is it practical to protect airliners from surface-to-air missiles, either airplane mounted, or possibly airport mounted?
Greg Feith and Jared Lipworth: Jared: While there are organizations that are looking into it and developing various anti-missile devices, it seems that this is not a danger that will ever be entirely preventable. For more info on some of the anti-missile systems that are being developed, check out the Crash Site Secrtes feature article on the Innovation web site www.pbs.org/innovation.
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Vail, Colo.:
Follow up on the Queens accident. Has an analysis been done using the $2.5M/passenger vs $ saved on the composite tail used by Airbus?
Greg Feith and Jared Lipworth: The NTSB intends to issue a final report on AAL 587 later this year -I am sure there will be alot of information about the post accident testing they conducted to determine what role the composite material may have played in the failure of the vertical stabilizer.
Greg
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New York, N.Y.:
I appreciated your program last night and
hoped you might have addressed the
Swissair Flight 111 plane crash of 1998
which killed all 229 people off of Nova
Scotia. That was caused by a fire in the
cockpit and arcing in the wiring. Nova, as
you no doubt know, had a feature
program on this. My question is:
Do you feel the entertainment systems
overload the wiring systems and
shouldn't they be removed from aircrafts?
Nancy
Mother of Rowenna Wight White, Swissair Flight 111 victim washingtonpost.com:
Transcript: PBS NOVA: Crash of Flight 111: Aviation Crash Investigation (Live Online, Feb. 18)
Greg Feith and Jared Lipworth: THe entertainment system on the Swiss Air aircraft was not like the entertainment systems installed by the aircraft manufactures on today's aircraft. The Swiss Air system was an after-market installation and was a very powerful system that was more than 10000 watts and had a Pentium three computer at every seat - the entertainment systems on the aircraft installed by the manufacturer are an integrated part of the electrical system rather than an add-on - thus they are tailored for the aircraft electrical system design.
Greg
Greg
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Washington DC:
How many accidents are due to operator error (didn't tenerife happen cuz one capt wanted to take off and didn't listent to ATC) and how many are problems of a mechanical nature (UAL Iowa Cornfield for example).
Greg Feith and Jared Lipworth: Your question can be answered several ways and unfortunately I don't have enough time - major accidents that occur around the world about 85% of the time attributed to human error - but some of the errors that occur by the pilot can be attributd to a system malfunction or failure that was either caused by human error or that resulted in a human error - statists do not give a very good pictures of the root causes of accidents.
Greg
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St. John's, NL. Canada:
Isn't the FAA just trying to protect it's turf by using delaying tactics when it comes to innovations like more navigational intelligence in the cockpit by use of GPS , Satellite Communications Systems and inter-aircraft data links? I believe so. These are not hugely expensive solutions.
Greg Feith and Jared Lipworth: The technology may not be expensive but the FAA must consider the economic impact of using such technology - for instance, the cost to train the pilot both initially and recurrently, the cost to install and maintain the equipment, the cost of the FAA to oversee and insure that the equipment is functional and being maintained properly - as you can see there are other costs associated with the install of new technology in aircraft, or a controil tower, etc.
Greg
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Greg Feith and Jared Lipworth: I appreciate the opportunity to participte in the PBS segment INNOVATION - I hope that it was educational and that you gained an insight as to how aviation safety has been improved.
Thanks again.
Gregory Feith
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Greg Feith and Jared Lipworth: Jared: Thank you all for watching the program last night and for joining us today. I hope we were able to provide you wish some useful information about airplane safety and the way the industry works. And special thanks to Greg Feith for taking the time to answer so many good questions!
Please make sure to check out the Innovation web site www.pbs/org/innovation for more information about this and all the other Innovation programs. And make sure to tune in to PBS next Tuesday night (April 13th) for the next episode of Innovation. The program is called Miracle Cell, and it explores some of the very latest stem cell trials that are being used to treat heart attack victims, spinal cord injury patients, cancer patients and more. Check local listings.
And don’t forget to sign back in for next week’s web chat, which will feature Joy Veron, a young Texas mother who became a paraplegic while trying to stop her car from going off a cliff with her children inside. Also joining us will be Dr. Steven Hinderer, Director of the Neurorecovery Center at the Rehabilitation Institute of Michigan. Dr. Hinderer sent Joy to Portugal to take part in an experimental stem cell trial, and is now working to get FDA approval to bring the procedure to the US.
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