PBS Innovation: SpyCatchers
Tony and Jonna Mendez and Jared Lipworth
Retired CIA Agents and Series Producer
Wednesday, February 25, 2004; 1:00 p.m ET
The PBS Innovation series program "SpyCatchers" explores the world of international espionage. For the program, cameras were allowed into the FBI’s undercover training school for the first time. Retired CIA agents and "master spies" Tony and Jonna Mendez describe how they became spies in Moscow eluding the KGB at the height of the Cold War and how they developed some of their most ingenious disguises. The couple also recount their most important missions and continue to help train a new generation of spies and counter-intelligence officers ("spycatchers").
Tony and Jonna Mendez and series producer Jared Lipworth and associate producer Erin Chapman will be online Wednesday, Feb. 25 at 1 p.m. ET to discuss the documentary.
Submit your questions and comments before or during the show.
Editor's Note: washingtonpost.com moderators retain editorial control
over Live Online discussions and choose the most relevant questions for guests and hosts; guests and hosts can decline to answer questions.
Bangor, Maine:
To Jared,
What did it take to get the F.B.I. to allow access to their undercover training school? Were there limits to what could and could not be filmed on site?
Tony and Jonna Mendez and Jared Lipworth: There were definitely limits, and we had to be careful about what we could and couldn't show. You'll notice that in the program, we had to shoot alot of the agents in shadow, or from behind to avoid identifying them and revealing their identities. Same was true of licence plates. The goal was to be able to bring you as much information as we could without revealing any details that could put any agents in danger.
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Huntsville, Alabama:
How can I get a copy of the show, Episode 903.
Outstanding program...
Tony and Jonna Mendez and Jared Lipworth: The easiest way to get a copy of SpyCatchers and all the other Innovation programs is from www.shopthirteen.org. But make sure to also check out the series web site at pbs.org/innovation. There is lots more information there about all the programs, and you can also download the Sparks of Innovation Magazine in PDF format. And don't forget to watch next Tuesday's episode, Hi-Tech War, which looks at the weapons that were used in the recent Iraq War--what worked, what didn't, and how the latest generation of weapons is changing the way future wars will be fought.
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McHenry, Md.:
Jared: I felt that the most intriguing thing about this compelling program was how it opened up a secret world that most of us are only minimally aware of, but is nonetheless very much a part of our lives.
But the other epidoses of Innovation I've seen focused on the latest technologies in the fields of bionics and structural engineering. There was certainly plenty of HUMAN innovation in SpyCatchers, but it didn't seem particularly "high-tech." Is there a 21st century version of James Bond's Q out there somewhere? Thank you.
Tony and Jonna Mendez and Jared Lipworth: You're right, there was definitely more human innovation in this film than technological. But as Tony and Jonna explain, that is the very nature of spying. Ultimately, the people who can think ahead of their adversaries will be the ones who are most successful. As far as actual gadgets go, there are lots of them, but by their very nature, the most secret ones need to remain secret. If you want to know more about the real Q's, Tony and Jonna can probably help there--that's their area of expertise...
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Athens, Ga.:
What made you decide to be spies, and were you ever scared of dying on a "mission"? If so, when and where?
Tony and Jonna Mendez and Erin Chapman : Hi Athens, Neither of us actually wanted to become spies, at least not in our earlier years, but we each had an opportunity to join the CIA and at that time decided to do it. Tony answered a "blind ad" in a Denver newspaper for a "artist to work overseas for the U.S. Navy." It was, in fact, a recruiter for the CIA who he ended up talking to, and he was subsequently hired. Jonna came in by the "side door", meeting a young group of CIA professionals in Europe, eventually marrying one (her first marriage) and coming on as a secretary. There were times for both of us when there were dangerous moments, but we were trained to deal with that and just followed our training. Where and when are probably still classified! Thanks, T&J
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washingtonpost.com:
Associate producer Erin Chapman will step in for Jared Lipworth to answer your questions about this program and series.
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New York, NY:
What inherent skills do you think someone in your field must possess and how do you become involved in such a pursuit?
Tony and Jonna Mendez and Erin Chapman : The skills that we would look for when we were hiring in our part of CIA, The Office of Technical Service, were probably a bit different than other sections of the Agency. We were a technical office and our officers conducted technical operations, using diverse technical skills.
So, in addition to being an electrical engineer, a chemist, a physicist or a photographer, we wanted to find candidates with innovative, adventuresome, practical spirits, people who could be discrete and think on their feet at the same time. You often have to work alone or in teams in hostile territory. You never get any feedback, little in the way of pats on the back, so you need to be a person who can function without outside approval. For some people that is very hard.
And, you need to be a romantic because then you can get your rewards from within.
Thanks, T&J
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Chicago, Ill.:
Greetings,
The "Fox & Hounds" was incredible to watch. I enjoyed it immensely.
Any comment on the hiring of 800 intelligence analysts that was recently announced?
Tony and Jonna Mendez and Erin Chapman : In our opinion there have never been enough analysts. There is an avalanche of information that pours in every day. There is almost too much information. The analysts are the ones who pore through it, looking for patterns and clues. It is a very important job.
It takes a long time to get them on board, and even longer to train them. In the long term the community will be much better served by a new, fresh influx of analysts.
Thanks, T&J
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Brookline, N.H.:
Did you ever come close to being exposed as a spy while in the USSR?
Tony and Jonna Mendez and Erin Chapman : As a U.S. government employee, everyone was under suspicion when in the USSR. Almost everyone had surveillance, often even tourists had surveillance. We believe that we were both exposed, but not while IN the USSR. It was in other countries, in other operations. This would be one of the reasons that we would use alias identities and documents when traveling around the world. T&J
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Sabetha, Kan.:
As a young person hoping to join the ranks of the CIA's Directorate of Operations, what are some good traits or accomplishments to have to offer to the Agency?
Tony and Jonna Mendez and Erin Chapman : Hi Sabetha, Kansas. Jonna is from Wichita, went to Southeast High and is always glad to talk to somebody else from the Sunflower state.
The DO (the Directorate of Operations) looks to hire people with good educational backgrounds, some knowledge of the world, languages when possible, travel if you have done it. They also like to find someone already established in a career that they can build on when they work for the CIA. So, for instance, an attorney or a travel agent would have useful skills when they knocked on the door. The DO also needs, almost most importantly, people with good "people" skills and communication skills. They have to convince foreign born citizens to work for them, not an easy job.
Thanks for the question! T&J Mendez
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New York, N.Y.:
Do you think it would have been impossible to be in a relationship with someone outside of the Agency?
Tony and Jonna Mendez and Erin Chapman : Hi New York. The answer is.....no. Not impossible, but it would come with its own set of very real problems. Tony's first wife, Karen, was outside of the Agency. She was raising their three children while Tony was traveling the world. She was never really sure where he was and/or what he was doing, or even when he would be home. Tyically he could not call home from overseas when he was on assignment.
Takes a pretty special "someone" to put up with a lot of this.
Thanks for the question, T&J
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Washington, D.C.:
If I am essentially a journalist with 20 years experience reading American government documents with no foreign langauge skills, I don't have anything that would interest the CIA, would I? Or, is there something I might have to offer?
Tony and Jonna Mendez and Erin Chapman : Au contraire, Washington, D.C. While the CIA has traditionally been prohibited from using journalism as a "cover" for its officers, there is nothing that we know of that would prevent a journalist from leaving that profession and starting a new one. You might find that your analytical skills, communication skills and ability to sort the wheat from the chaff could serve you well in the CIA. You can always learn a new language.
There is a very fine line difference between a journalist and a spy. Give it a shot! We know they are hiring! Thanks, T&J
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Richmond, VA:
In your experience, why did informants from "enemy" states work with you or other American spies? Are enemy informants politically or socially alienated from their own government, in love with the idea of America, looking for monetary compensation? I mean they put a lot on the line, but for what? Thank you.
Tony and Jonna Mendez and Erin Chapman : You are really asking what motivates our foreign agents, and the acronym that we use to answer this question is MICE - Money, Ideology, Compromise and Ego. Most cases can be traced to one or a combination of these factors. Even our American spies (Ames - Money, Hanssen - Ego) fall into this same pattern.
Interestingly, our best agents over the years were never even recruited. They were what we called volunteers, highly placed assets who wanted to work for America, and for democracy, without pay. Often we would agree to relocate them, and often their children, after a specified time. They often wanted their kids to be schooled and raised in the West.
Thanks, T&J
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Chicago, Ill.:
Greetings,
How much of the Clancy characters (Mary Pat and Whats-his-name) were based on you two? How much on the former Inspector General and his wife?
Tony and Jonna Mendez and Erin Chapman : Sorry, can't help you out. Have never read Tom Clancy, no, wait a minute, Tony says he read "Hunt for Red October." We don't know these characters, don't think a lot of his use of the language, just aren't interested in this fiction. There is a lot of fiction that we do like, Graham Greene, Robert Ludlum, John LeCarre. Clancy just doesn't float our boat! Thanks, T&J
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Provo, Utah:
Tony and Jonna, were you ever in a situation where you've had to withhold information from one another?
Tony and Jonna Mendez and Erin Chapman : Oh yes indeed. If you pick up our book "Spy Dust" and get about two chapters into it, you will find me (Jonna) telling Tony (my boss) that I can't give him any more information about an operation that I just took part in. Can you believe that? And he married me anyway!
It was not uncommon for us to be working on two separate operations, or perhaps two different parts of one operation and not be able to tell the other. It was called need to know, and it was a firm principle of compartmenting, and securing, classified information.
Thanks, T&J
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Rockville, Md.:
I'm very interested in watching the program, which I had not heard of until this discussion. When will Spycatchers air (or air again) in the Washington area? Thanks.
Tony and Jonna Mendez and Erin Chapman : Erin- Thanks for your interest in the Innovation series. The best way for you to find out when SpyCatchers might be airing again in your area is to visit PBS's website - www.pbs.org. They will have the listings for your local PBS station.
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Brooklyn, NY:
How much prep time did you get before you entered an area/situation? Did you have to rely on common sense and basic instinct more than training?
Tony and Jonna Mendez and Erin Chapman : Hi Brooklyn. Both. We would often take long, circuituous routes to our meeting sites, taking 2-3 hours or more, before meeting with a foreign agent in a foreign city. It was for his protection mostly. In some places, Moscow, Havana, Beijing, meeting with a U.S. government official, secretly, could get you jail or worse. So we were trained in this surveillance detection route, or SDR technique. But no amount of training can give you the common sense that makes you listen to your gut and abort when you know that it doesn't feel "right." That was one of our cardinal rules - listen to your gut. It works pretty well. Thanks, Jonna & Tony
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Monterey, Calif.:
Do you think we actually need to have a "war" against terrorism or could we "fight" with the kinds of "police actions" and special forces teams and spies etc.
Declaring what is a defacto "war against the uncivilized world" seems a bit overkill -- double meaning intended.
Thank you.
Tony and Jonna Mendez and Erin Chapman : Hi Monterey. Tony talking here. I think that it IS a war, not a police action or law enforcement matter. The reason the FBI failed to recognize the threat is because they approached it as if it was a crime, and you don't worry so much about prevention of crimes as you do catching the criminals. The FBI was treating it as a tactical problem, with no strategic view of the problem. Now they have to learn the skills that good intelligence officers use and the program last night was part of that process. Thanks, Tony M.
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Harrisburg, Pa.:
It is stressed that students interested in CIA work should learn foreign languages. Yet, unless the language is native to you, isn't it hard to learn a new language without an accent that would be detected by a native? Is there special training for emersion in language skills for CIA recruits seeking to work in foreign countries? Or, are such recruits usually then hired primarily for translating documents?
Tony and Jonna Mendez and Erin Chapman : Hi Harrisburg, There are lots of different language requirements in the intelligence community. The CIA itself has a very robust language program, teaching and testing to the highest levels. Yes, there are special schools that take it further, The Monterey Institute in California, for instance, where they do total immersion and get very good results. A friend of ours at the Agency, a very senior man, had both Chinese and Russian language skills, tested at a "5", which at CIA means native proficiency. Some people are better at the skill than others - but everyone can at least learn to operate in a language. Thanks, T&J
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New York, NY:
Hi! Did you ever "see" the effects of your intelligence gathering? In other words, could you tell that it impacted official decisions or policy towards a certain country?
Tony and Jonna Mendez and Erin Chapman : Hi New York. The PBS piece last night touched on one such occasion, Tony's disguise work leading to the agent telling the U.S. government about the tactical nuclear weapons in Egypt. Another such event was when Tony brought the 6 American hostages out of Iran, a subject covered in his first book, "The Master of Disguise." Yes, you could, every so often, see it and that was probably what kept a lot of noses to the grindstone over the years. Thanks, T&J
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Fairfax, Va.:
Erin,
I found it interesting that in the middle of the show you fast forward from espionage in the cold war during Nixon and into Sept. 11. When you introduced Sept. 11, I thought it was (mis)leading to the fact that intelligence knew about a plot for Sept. 11. Is this correct?
Tony and Jonna Mendez and Erin Chapman : It was not the intent of this program to imply that the American intelligence community had knowledge of a terrorist plot, prior to September 11th. Exploring espionage during the Cold War and contrasting that to recent events allowed us the opportunity to illustrate how the intelligence community must learn to adapt the time-honored techniques of innovative thinking to the face of a changing enemy.
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Washington:
Tony and Jonna Mendez:
Both of you have a remarkably high profile for retired agents of your stature and skill. You've written fantastic books, you give wonderful lectures, you run "training" classes through the Spy Museum, and now you participated in a fantastic television show.
I'm certain that you obtained permission from the appropriate agencies/offices before engaging in any of this.
Please don't take this the wrong way (I have enjoyed your work for many years), but why have you chosen to stand in the spotlight instead of fading into the shadows? It seems so contrary to your training.
Thanks for your work, and for participating in this chat.
Tony and Jonna Mendez and Erin Chapman : It is contrary. It is counter-culture. We learned that spies never celebrate their successes and never explain their failures a long time ago.
But in 1997, when the CIA turned 50 years old, it hired a public relations group to help celebrate for the first time, publicly. They had an internal competition called The Trailblazer Award. The CIA named 50 men and women, of any age, at any time in the Agency's history who had made a significant impact, left a footprint, their greatest spies, in fact.
Tony was one!
It was the CIA who asked Tony to go public, and declassified some of the stories that we tell today so that he could do so. It was the CIA who asked if he would speak to the New York Times (Tim Weiner), to People Magazine (no) and set up a string of interviews. The book was a logical follow-on, after all the publicity, and of course it was vetted thoroughly by the CIA - 7 times in fact, possibly a world record. We know where the lines are, know what we have been approved to discuss and know what is off the table. Yeah, who would have ever thought that we would be in the public eye like this? Certainly not us! Good question, thanks, T&J
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Washington, D.C.:
While the spy stuff sounds cool and sells a lot of books, movies and TV shows, were/are you concerned about moral aspects of such activities? For example, under the Geneva convention, soldiers are prohibited from operating out of uniform in time of war with such activities being punishable by death. So if this is such a concern during time of war, why do we glorify such actions even during times when no declared war exists? Another example -- if bribery is illegal in business and international trade (and U.S. law and foreign policy promotes this view), what gives governments the right to bribe for spying purposes?
Tony and Jonna Mendez and Erin Chapman : The answer to your questions is very simply put. "The acme of skill is defeating the enemy without taking the field of battle." Sun Tzu
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Washington, D.C.:
Erin,
The software that agents use for interviews was amazing! Can you tell us more about it?
Tony and Jonna Mendez and Erin Chapman : That software was an FBI initiative. It is new and innovative and were were probably as amazed by it as you were. We don't know any more about it than what was shown, but you might look at the FBI website and see if they talk about it there. Thanks! T&J
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Pittsburgh, Pa.:
A question for Erin Chapman: what made you decide to do a program on this topic, and how did the Mendezes come to your attention?
Loved the program!
Tony and Jonna Mendez and Erin Chapman : EC - The film's producer, Carol Fleisher originally approached us with the idea of exploring innovation in the world of espionage. She shared Tony and Jonna's books with us and we immediately knew they would be wonderful "under-cover" tour guides for the film.
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New York, N.Y.
In your opinion, why is the American intelligence community more keen on recruiting Arabic speakers than say, Farsi speakers. Is it because after the Revolution there are more Iranians they can trust in the US than Arabs?
Tony and Jonna Mendez and Erin Chapman : Sorry, haven't heard of this before, so would just be guessing. We think that there must be a great need for both languages. T&J
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Rochester, N.Y.:
From your experience in the intelligence world, what do you think went wrong with the assessment of Iraq's WMD program? also, what do you think of the notion of using futures markets to allow lower level analysts a mechanism to express their opinions more directly?
Tony and Jonna Mendez and Erin Chapman : Hi Rochester. A lot of things could have gone wrong with the assessment of Iraq's WMD program. But it isn't quite over yet, is it? The intelligence community may have been duped by information with a political angle to it, i.e., Iraqi dissidents and defectors with their own agendas. Or the WMD might have been moved. We think the jury is still out on this, but with all of the investigations and commissions, we are sure that the truth will make itself known, eventually. Intelligence has never been a precise business. Ultimately the policy maker, like the operations officer, has to go with their gut. Good question, thanks, T&J
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Bayside, N.Y.:
Hi Jared,
Last night's show touched on a hot-button issue, national security. I'm sure you didn't reveal any classified or sensitive information, but I'm wondering if you've had feedback from viewers.
Tony and Jonna Mendez and Erin Chapman : EC - Web postings and chats, like this one, provide us with the most immediate feedback from our viewers. As you can see from some of the other questions in this discussion, the program is certainly sparking some interesting questions about national security!
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Hoboken, NJ:
Your response to "Brooklyn" made me wonder: is being in enemy territory kind of like working without a safety net? In other words, is there anyone Stateside you can contact in a dire emergency?
Tony and Jonna Mendez and Erin Chapman : Sometimes it is. Depends on what your cover is. If you have no diplomatic cover, you are on your own if caught. The CIA officers in Afghanistan were on their own, if caught. Usually, by the time you are caught, it is too late to call home. T&J
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Chicago, Ill. :
Erin, in making the film did you ever feel that you were letting out too much intelligence information?
Tony and Jonna Mendez and Erin Chapman : Of course, security was an important issue in the making of this film. I think Jared Lipworth, our series producer, addressed this very well in his answer to one of the previous questions (from Bangor, Maine). We worked in conjunction with the CIA and FBI to make sure we did not reveal any sensitive information.
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Florence SC:
Can you elaborate about any safeguards in place to deter actions of the "rogue agent" that may exceed the bounds of his/her directive? Checks and balances within the agency to maintain its integrity?
Tony and Jonna Mendez and Erin Chapman : Yeah, In the case of both Ames and Hanssen neither the members of the CIA nor the FBI could believe that one of their own could possibly be the spy. They were really wrong, right?
A lot of new security has been layered on top of the old systems; more frequent polygraphs, more specific financial accountings (for private finances that is). Stuff like that. A good counterintelligence officer will tell you that there is always another spy working in place, waiting to be caught. The next one is going to have a tougher time than Ames and Hanssen! Thanks, T&J
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Wheaton, Md.:
Now that the Cold War is over, shouldn't the focus of US espionage be on infiltrating terrorist organizations, such as Hamas and Al Qaeda? Have there been sucessful infiltrations of these groups?
Tony and Jonna Mendez and Erin Chapman : You are right. Have there been? Do you think any of us would/should know if there have been? It is one of those things that won't be known, hopefully, for a long, long time.
Thanks, T&J
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Tony and Jonna Mendez and Erin Chapman : On behalf of Tony, Jonna and all of us here at Thirteen/WNET New York, we'd like to thank you for joining us today. I think we've had some very interesting questions and some very enlightening responses! Don't forget to tune in to your local PBS station next Tuesday for Hi-Tech War, Innovation's look at the new combat technologies on the battlefields of Iraq. In the meantime, you can further explore all of our topics online at www.pbs.org/innovation. So long!
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Washington, D.C.:
What would you say in response to this 1997 observation from diplomat/historian/writer George Kennan (who turned 100 last week):
"It is my conviction, based on 70 seventy years of experience, first as a government official and then in the past 45 years as a historian, that the need by our government for secret intelligence about affairs elsewhere in the world has been vastly over-rated. I would say that something upwards of 95% of what we need to know about foreign countries could be very well obtained by the careful and competent study of perfectly legitimate sources of information open and available to us in the rich library and archival holdings of this country. There may still be areas, very small areas really, in which there is a need to pentrate someone else's curtain of secrecy. All right. But then please, without the erection of false pretenses and elaborate efforts to deceive--and without, to the extent possible--the attempt to maintain "spies" on the adversay's terrority. We easily become ourselves, the sufferers from these methods of deception. For they inculcate in their authors, as well as in their intended victims, unlimited cynicism, causing them to lose all realistic understanding of the inter-relationship, in what they are doing, of ends and means."
Tony and Jonna Mendez and Erin Chapman : We saved this for last, and you are not going to get a long answer because time is running out. He has a valid point, and the CIA does, indeed, use "open source" information, and more intelligence is collected that way than any other. But open source info will not give you that highly prized "plans and intentions" of the enemy, sometimes even, of a friend. Our policymakers, going into negotiations, need to know what the other side is willing to do, is going to do. For that you need the infamous HUMINT, human intelligence. Feet on the ground. People in the know. Using deception techniques. A short read of Sun Tzu might give you a better understanding of what we are trying to say in one paragraph, and Sun Tzu does it very concisely. Thoughtful paragraph, thanks, T&J
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washingtonpost.com:
That wraps up today's discussion, thanks for all your questions.
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