Frontline: From China With Love
Michael Kirk
Producer
Friday, January 16, 2004; 11:00 a.m. ET
Her code name was "Parlor Maid." She was a spy whose information about
China found its way to four American presidents. For 20 years Katrina
Leung's handler was a freewheeling FBI agent named J.J. Smith. But "Parlor
Maid" and J.J. were more than agent and asset: they were lovers. Last
April, the government claimed "Parlor Maid" was a double agent -- spying for China with the help of her lover J.J. -- and the two were arrested.
Producer Michael Kirk was online Friday, Jan. 16 at 11 a.m. ET, to discuss Frontline's investigation into a story of sex, secrets, risk, patriotism and power, and how U.S. intelligence about China has been seriously compromised.
"From China With Love" airs Thursday, Jan. 15 at 9 p.m. ET (check local listings).
Editor's Note: washingtonpost.com moderators retain editorial control
over Live Online discussions and choose the most relevant questions for guests and hosts; guests and hosts can decline to answer questions.
McLean, Va.:
There was a statement early in the show that the intelligence produced in the Parlor Maid operation reached four presidents. Clearly, Chinese intelligence had ample opportunity to pass deceptive information through this operative to the upper echelons of the U.S. foreign policy community with the goal of influencing U.S. foreign policy vis-a-vis China. The FBI is also clearly clueless in the way it vets, analyzes and disseminates intelligence from its assets. When is the FBI going to be held accountable for its repeatd failures in the world of counterintelligence? Wen Ho Lee, Peter Lee, Gwo Bao Min, Rick Ames, Bob Hanssen et. al. Failure after failure after failure.
Michael Kirk: One of the ways they are being accountable is by serious journalism as practiced by a few members of the press and Frontline. Other congressional investigations either pending or soon to be revealed also examine the bureau.
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Arlington, Va.:
Do you know of any evidence of a connection between Ms. Leung and Wen Ho Lee? Specifically, could there be a connection between Ms. Leung and the man who fingered Dr. Lee, Notra Trulock? It seems if he were involved with her, he would want to frame others, such as Dr. Lee, for involvement. Also, if the agent she was involved with let her take classified documents from his briefcase, does that mean he didn't know?
Michael Kirk: I am not aware of any connection between Katrina Leung and Wen Ho Lee. I'm also unaware of any connection between Notra Trulock (the man involved in pressing the case against Dr. Lee) and Katrina Leung. But I am aware that we reported last night that there are some who believe that her role in the Wen Ho Lee case may have been to pass on some information to the Chinese about the case -- information that she may have gotten from Agent Smith or Agent Cleveland both of whom at one time or another were involved in the Wen Ho Lee case.
Agent Smith, from whose briefcase Katrina Leung has acknowledged that she took documents, also has himself acknowleged that he was careless with the handling of those documents but has plead not guilty to the charges of negligence in the handling of those documents.
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Bellevue, Wash.:
Is it possible that your report may compromise the successful prosecution of this case in the event that the defense may use "negative publicity" to weasel its way out?
Michael Kirk: I don't accept the characterization that our report was "negative publicity." We tried to tell the story accurately and with fairness.
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Sacramento, Calif.:
You specified that Leung gave campaign cash to the Republicans, yet not a word on Democrats. Why? You also show Leung/Smith at Bush Inauguration. Not a word on Bill Clinton.
Why? In your exhaustive investigation, you found no Leung links to Clinton and Democrats?
I spent a few hours and found plenty!
I'm no Bush fan. Your report simply reeks of bias. Reminds me of the CBS cop story a few years back...
Michael Kirk: Our story was about Katrina Leung and what she did. It accurately reported that her campaign contribution were to Republican candidates. What happened with Asian financial contribution to the Clinton administration and other democrats were well reported at the time -- in many cases (by Frontline) -- but was not part of this story.
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Fairfax, Va.:
Did Bill Cleveland and IC Smith travel to China undercover or in true name? If they did travel in true name did it matter that Katrina snitched them off? The PRC intel services would have followed them if they travelled in true name as the FBI does to them over here. So this issue of the Chinese surveillance is much ado about nothing, isn't it? And those pictures of FBI agents from a retirement "grip and grin" type affair that Katrina had in her bags, so what? FBI agents are not secret operatives, they are public servants who identify themselves to the public every day. The two active agents whose pictures were among the 5 did public service work or something, I believe from other reporting I saw. So what about her hab ving those picures, they were not classified.
Michael Kirk: Cleveland and IC Smith traveled to China using their names and affiliations. They felt that there was an unusual amount of surveillance given what their announced agenda was in China. And the Gwo Bao Min moment raised thier suspicion that something unusual was occuring. They and other professionals like them are always more concerned than the rest of us about the possibility of a foreign intelligence service knowing more about them than they want revealed -- it is possible for example, as we reported, that they may have been on a mission different than the one they announced. So it may be much ado about nothing but the fascinating and sometimes frightening element of espionage work is that one never really knows, does one? As to the pictures of the FBI agents, Agent Keller inside our program clearly articulated the potential risk of having those pictures distributed even if they weren't classified.
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Cape Elizabeth, Maine:
While the show mentioned J.J. and Katrina Leung being caught in a hotel room on tape, little was mentioned about her sexual relationship with FBI agent Cleland. What are those allegations based on?
Michael Kirk: We stated rather clearly that William Cleveland and Katrina Leung had an ongoing sexual relationship and at least three periods over a decade. He has acknowledged such facts to the FBI in sworn statements and so has she.
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Washington, D.C.:
What's your take on Brian Sun, the
attorney who has made a specialty of
representing people involved in Chinese
espionage scandals?
Michael Kirk: The interesting thing about Brian Sun, an extremely capable advocate for clients like Johnny Chung (involved in the Clinton finance scandal) and Dr. Wen Ho Lee, is that when JJ Smith was arrested, he called Brian Sun who had been on the "other side" in those important cases. It is a testimony to Sun's reputation as an advocate against the FBI.
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McLean, Va.:
Regarding your response to the question about the failures of the bureau: why have the press and the Congress ignored many of the key features of the Chinese espionage threat?
Michael Kirk: I'm not aware of the assumption inherent in your question. Surely, we've all missed some parts of the key features but there has been plenty of reporting on many aspects of this story.
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College Park, Md.:
Give us some info on her: age; education (and where); marital status; family; and what was she doing in the U.S?
Michael Kirk: Katrina Leung like many immigrants was probably drawn to the U.S. because of its opportunities. She attended some of the best universities in the world: Cornell and Univ. of Chicago and did very well. She's in her late forties, is married to a biochemist and has been since the late 1970's and she has a son.
She is bright, capable and according to those who knew her well, a valuable addition to the American society. Her role as an asset for the FBI was according to her, a patriotic act performed in service to her adopted country. Whether she was a double agent for the Chinese government has yet to be proven in court.
Until then like all Americans she is presumed innocent. Unfortunately, some may learn of her story and assume any or all Asian American/immigrants may be worthy of equal suspicion, an assumption that is not born out by fact or a long standing history of Asian immigrants.
The challenge in cases like Wen Ho Lee and Katrina Leung is for police agencies and press to be cautious about the dangers of generalized racial profiling.
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Minneapolis, Minn.:
What is the connection of PRC in this matter?
Michael Kirk: The FBI alleges Katrina worked directly for the ministry of state security which is an espionage arm of PRC. I am not aware that the Chinese government has said anything about Katrina Leung, who operated under the code name Luo when she dealt with them. She has said that she was never a Chinese agent and that she was always working for America.
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Albuquerque, N.M.:
What is the connection between the "players" featured in the Frontline story and the Weh Ho Lee case? Was Wen Ho Lee set up by one or more of them?
Michael Kirk: Wen Ho Lee plead guilty to one count. The case, botched as it was from the very beginning, has many unresolved elements, some of which surround some people in our program last night -- notably Notra Trulock, JJ Smith, William Cleveland and perhaps, Katrina Leung.
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Syracuse, N.Y.:
Do you know if the FBI agent who permited access to the classified documents will be charged with violating the provisions of the SF 312 non discloseure agreement singed by individuals granted clearances and given access to classified material?
Michael Kirk: I am not aware or privvy to future charges that may or may not be filed int his case. Agent JJ Smith has been charged with negligence in handling classified documents. And that is the extent of the charges against anyone in the FBI as part of this case so far.
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Mt. Lebanon, Pa.:
Is the FBI too insular to be conducting its own investigation of its own agents? Perhaps even the Justice Department is too close to the FBI to aggressively, promptly, and effectively oversee FBI counterintelligence operations.
Thanks much. Signed... Tired of hearing about the FBI routinely dropping the ball.
Michael Kirk: It is a very good question, one that has always plagued major institutions, i.e. Who watches the watchdogs?
Many I've spoken to in the FBI tell me that the presumption within the bureau has always been that no agent would transgress but in the wake of Robert Hansen and now JJ Smith and William Cleveland, new procedures including mandatory polygraphs are being demanded.
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Nashville, Tenn.:
I was appalled after watching the show that neither of the FBI agents was punished for his reckless behavior? They were both just as guilty as she was of treason in my opinion!
Where is the justice in that?
Michael Kirk: Agent JJ Smith has been charged with a serious crime. His case is in the justice system right now and will be decided in due course. Agent William Cleveland is cooperating with government investigators and whether or not future charges are filed will be up to the appropriate authorities to decide.
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Washington, DC:
Do you feel that the conclusion of the Weh Ho Lee case brought with it a sense of closure surrounding the breach of security at the labs and the subsequent transfer to China of our W-88 technologies?
In that sense, didn't the Lee investigation succeed or attempt to succeed in satisfying various publics that justice was accomplished?
That it failed should make the current problem seem much deeper than it is presented to be, shouldn't it?
Michael Kirk: The Wen Ho Lee case remains one of the great unresolved stories in the history of American counterintelligence. Someday, perhaps someday soon, serious journalism will take a long hard look at the facts of this case.
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Bethesda:
Far be it for me to let the FBI off the hook for this and other intelligence failures, but come on everyone, this happens in other countries' intelligence apparatuses as well, only we don't hear about it. We also don't hear about the intelligence successes of our clandestine agencies, as that remains secret. All we hear about are the failures.
Michael Kirk: But we should. That is what keeps the FBI on their toes and America free and it is the job of those of us in journalism to reveal such problems so that they won't occur in the future.
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Oakton, VA:
Can you talk a little bit about the San Marino neighborhood that Ms. Leung lived in. I know it to be a very wealthy neighborhood where alot of successful and socially connected asian americans live. Were Ms. Leung spying activities the product of political views, or a lust for power, influence, and relevance?
Michael Kirk: The San Marino neighborhood is composed of houses whose LA area housing market value ranges from about one million to three million dollars. Many of Ms. Leung's friends and associates as well as prosecutors, FBI agents and members of the press have very different opinions about why Ms. Leung participated in the world of espionage. She contends that she always was working as a patriotic act for the FBI.
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Vail, Co:
I am interested in those retired FBI employees who spoke on camera for your show. Would you care to comment on their motivations? Do you consider them a good cross-section of opinion on this case?
Michael Kirk: I can never speak to the motivation of people who are willing to talk to us. If they were not reliable and did not have good standing (relevance and knowledge) in the story, I would not use them.
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washingtonpost.com:
That wraps up the discussion. Thanks for your questions.
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