Interaction Design and Children Conference
Alan Kay, Marvin Minsky, Seymour Papert and Allison Druin
Technology Researchers
Thursday, June 03, 2004; 1:00 p.m. ET
This year, the University of Maryland Human-Computer Interaction Lab holds the third annual Interaction Design and Children conference that focuses on the importance and current challenges of allowing children to be integrated at the early stage of the technology design process. The three-day conference features workshops, seminars and new research and products that include emerging technology, new research methods involving children in the design, development, and evaluation processes and the impact of new technologies on young people.
Conference speakers and chair Alan Kay, Marvin Minsky, Seymour Papert and Allison Druin will be online Thursday, June 3 at 1 p.m. ET to discuss the conference highlights and their research.
Submit your questions and comments before or during the show.
Kay is a senior fellow in HP Labs researching and developing new software platforms. His work includes developing the idea of the personal computer, overlapping window interface and conceptualizing object-oriented programming. Recently, Kay
received the 2003 Turing Award, one of the highest honors awarded from the Association of Computing Machinery (ACM). He has worked in Xerox PARC, Atari Research Labs, Apple Computer and the Walt Disney Company.
Minsky is the Toshiba professor of Media Arts and Sciences at the MIT Media Lab. He is considered to be one of the "founding fathers" of artificial intelligence. His research includes the possibilities for commonsense reasoning by machines and has made significant contributions to the fields of AI, mathematics, computational linguistics, robotics and
children's technology. His books include "The Society of Mind" (1985) and "The Emotion Machine" (2001).
Papert is a professor of Education and Media
Technology at the MIT Media Lab and at the
University of Maine.
For over 40 years, Papert has pioneered research
in how technology can provide children new ways to learn. In his labs at
MIT, he has led research in developing the Logo programming language, LEGO Mindstorms and many other computational "objects to think with."
He has also the author of "Mindstorms" (1980).
Druin is a faculty member in the
College of Information Studies and the Human-Computer Interaction Lab at the University of Maryland. Recently she was appointed by the White House and confirmed by the U.S. Senate to become a Commissioner in the U.S. National Commission on
Libraries and Information Science. For almost two decades, she has led
interdisciplinary teams of researchers and children to develop new
educational technologies and to develop new methods of working with
children as design partners.
Editor's Note: washingtonpost.com moderators retain editorial control
over Live Online discussions and choose the most relevant questions for guests and hosts; guests and hosts can decline to answer questions.
Alan Kay, Marvin Minsky, Seymour Papert and Allison Druin : Allison: With me are my three favorite mad scientists who have inspired a whole generation of people to make new technologies for kids. Today's children live, learn, and play using technologies that range from online gaming to computer programming languages for children (e.g., Logo, Squeak). We'll take questions about anything from computers to kids to learning to why bother?
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College Park, Md.:
What is the effective way to let teachers and schools to change their usual teaching philosophy and methods, in order to carry out the big ideas you have on education?
Alan Kay, Marvin Minsky, Seymour Papert and Allison Druin : seymour
first give them the technology ...... a computer foir every child ... nobody would learn to write with a few pencils in a classroom .... then let the teacher innovate ... eventually develop a new much more powerful curriculum
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Pittsburgh, Pa.:
There has been extensive discussion regarding the role of teachers in facilitating children's use of technology. My question is, how can researchers better support teachers in using technology in the classroom? What steps can researchers take to transmit the big ideas to the classroom evironment?
Alan Kay, Marvin Minsky, Seymour Papert and Allison Druin : The most important thing to do to help teachers is to helpthem better understand the content of the "new subjects" (such as math and science) they are asked to teach. Tis is not trivial because it actually takes several years to learn this ideas and the teachers are already busy. emotionally. most teachers need their job environment (principal, other teachers, etc.) to support them so they don't have to be complete lone wolves.
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Train, EM:
While a great deal of time, money, and effort appears to be spent on developing new technologies, it does not seem that enough is being spent on training educators.
Consider the blatent case of the public school teacher in Brooklyn, NY who was the "computer teacher" who waited for two months for the "rest" of the computers to arrive when only the monitors, keyboards, and mice were delivered by Apple (yes, the school was given a classroom of iMacs).
While neither "sexy" or "glizy" in today's world, doesn't teacher training need to be given more resources?
Alan Kay, Marvin Minsky, Seymour Papert and Allison Druin : Seymour says:
I hate the phrase "teacher training" -- you train tigers in circusses not teachers or children ... are we "training" the teachers to "train the children" ?????
Yes of course teachers need more opportunity to develop intellectually .... but it is meanin gless to prepapre them for using technology they don;'t have. So the technology comes first. if you want to learn to drive a car ... get one!
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College Park, Md.:
In Larry Cuban's book, "Teachers and machines: The classroom use of technology since 1920" he shows a picture from 1927 where a class flew in an airplane with their teacher for their geography lesson. They were sitting in a flying classroom that had desks in rows, a blackboard at the front of the room, and the teacher pointing at a globe on her desk. Can you think of more recent examples of teachers not "getting" the point of the technology with which they are provided?
Alan Kay, Marvin Minsky, Seymour Papert and Allison Druin : Every teacher who thinks that the point is to ":integrate" the new technology into the old curriculum misses the point.
\It is as if a 19C engineer invented a jet engine to impoprve transportation and attached it to a animal drawn carriage to help the horses. The propoer use of the jet engine was ...invent the airplane.
Our schools are carriages plus jet engines. We need to invent to educvstional airplane.
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Pennsylvania:
Dr. Druin,
Your bio says you "develop new methods of working with children as design partners". What ages are these children? How do you find children that have enough technological maturity and ability to be effective design partners?
Alan Kay, Marvin Minsky, Seymour Papert and Allison Druin : Allison: Yes, I do in fact work with children to create new technologies-- the children are 7-11 years old generally, however, I have lately started working with 4-6 year olds-- together we brainstorm, sketch new ideas, and build new technologies. The thing you should know is that I don't look to the the "most techy kid in the class" to work with. Instead I look for children who are problem-solvers, creative artists, and/or communicators. They shouldn't be steeped with what-is, but what-should-be. Feel free to look at our website at: www.cs.umd.edu/hcil/kiddesign
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Learn, Maine:
I have found that many of my college students don't seem to WANT to be engaged in the class. It's as if they want to lean back in their chairs with their arms to their sides, say "Learn Me" and be done with it. I have made various attempts at encouraging "more than the minimum" by having contests (eg: fastest program wins a prize for an algorithms project). While a very small number of students grab these opportunities and run with them (and I hope come away with a better "education" as a result) it is difficult to maintain my energy level when my efforts are reflected in the expereince of 10% or fewer of my students. Can you suggest reasons why my students don't seem to DESIRE opportunities for (what I consider) non-tradional classroom activitites and perhaps ways to engage more of the students.
Alan Kay, Marvin Minsky, Seymour Papert and Allison Druin : Seymour says:
In 90% of cases kids don't engage because they work is boring. Chikldren today are less likely to do things just because someone said DO IT! This is a grteat mnifestation of democratic society. BUT thyatd oesn't mean they should do nothing or "whatever they like" -- it means we have to give them work to do that they see asw meanuingful.
I ask you to look over the math curriculum and ask yourselkf how often you -- or anyone -- actually does those things!!!
\
If you give kids meaningful math AND A CONTEXRT TO USE IT .. they love it. (Context? eg building robots that really work, making theuir own computer games, simulating the lobster ecology)
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Perfection, North Carolina:
Why do you think mathematics and music are so often related to one another in discussions of education? When learning music, even if you don't get it correct, you get something. Even if you don't get it correct, you can play with it. Music is something that any child can explore (until their parents get in the way by telling them they aren't doing it right) in meaningful ways. Are any of these properties valid for math?
Alan Kay, Marvin Minsky, Seymour Papert and Allison Druin : This is tricky,and I'm not sure I have a good answer. Long ago music and math were considered to be pretty much the same subject, and they remained closely related in the Medieval curricula. Many parts of music have interesting mathematical properties, and some parts of music --such as harmony -- are a kind of math that is rather like demonstrative geometry. A lot of it can be looked at as similarities and congruence.
The artifacts of math and music can be looked at as works of art and there is quite a bit of agreement as to what "beauty" might mean. Music is usually a progression over time, and math can be looked at as this, but also as more like a painting. Some pieces of music are like descriptions of paintings.
There is emotional content from both. In the end, I think what they are most deeply abuot is different. Music is a way of saying emotional things that ordinary language has difficulty with,and math is a way of thinking and expressing that is trying to be as clear as possible.
The people who do either will say they are playing andhaving fun.
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Boston, Mass.:
Several years ago a book by Bransford et al titled "How People Learn" emphasized the importance of students being able to judge how well they were learning. What element of this metacognition do you think should be includied?
Alan Kay, Marvin Minsky, Seymour Papert and Allison Druin : Seymour says:
Bransford simply doesn't undertand the essentiall chnage that has to be made: CHAN GE THE CONTENT ...
The book should be called "how people don't learn" -- we really leasrn when we are engaged in hard projects that really count for uws .... scghool does not provide enough of those ... so we see only pseudo-learning in molst schools
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Fairfax, Va.:
One (or more) of you have argued that students should not be taught math, but rather mathematics. However, I have found that several times a month, the total at the grocery store is incorrect because they "accidentally" entered the wrong price. Some of these seem to be honest mistakes ($8.90 per pound for peaches) while others I suspect are intentional. Without basic math and approximation, I would have overpaid in every case. However, since I keep a running total of what the final cost should be (roughly) I am able to notice many of their errors easily. I have also taken to watching the individual items ring up, since when they adverise "3 for $1" and they each ring up at 40 cents, the difference is too small to notice in the grand total. I actually had an employee argue with me for 5 minutes telling me that I was doing to math wrong (the cherries were supposed to be $1.49 off their regular price which would bring them down to $0.99 but I was being -charged- $1.49) and I had to call a supervisor over.
This is just one domain in which many people's inability to do regular math is apparent. How can you advocate teaching mathematics when basic math is (a) a practical and valuable tool and (b) can't itself even seem to be taught properly.
Alan Kay, Marvin Minsky, Seymour Papert and Allison Druin : It's quite likely that learning mathematics also will lead to better "math". The opposite doesn't seem to happen.
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Tallahassee, Fla.:
I'm actually at the Interaction Design and Children Conference and therefore was at the panel discussion yesterday. I have a one word question that was prompted by a remark made by Alan in yesterday's discussion. So the quesstion is directed at Alan, but I'd be glad to have responses from others on today's panel also. The word is Montessori?
Eliza
Alan Kay, Marvin Minsky, Seymour Papert and Allison Druin : To me Maria Montessori is the patron saint of all this stuff. It was she who first started to use carefully deisgned rich environments to see if she could hook into the kids' built-in urges to learn their environments to learn 20th century ideas if the toys she designed had the desired side-effects. She was great genius.
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Detroit, Michigan:
Do some companies developing educational software consult with child psychiatrists and educators, as well as test their software on children? Which ones might these be? Heaven knows how much "educational" software I have purchased for my six year old that turned out to be duds.
Alan Kay, Marvin Minsky, Seymour Papert and Allison Druin : Allison: I agree with you-- there are a lot of duds out there when it comes to new technologies. There are many companies that work with "experts" to design new technologies. The problem is not enough companies work with "experts" that are children. And when I mean working with children, I don't actually mean asking kids "what do you think?" after something has been made. But asking them to come up with new ideas in the product exploration stage. Until we listen more to our children, we may continue to have the duds you speak of...
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College Park, Md:
How would you compare a child spending time watching "good" TV with spending the same time playing a "bad" video game?
Alan Kay, Marvin Minsky, Seymour Papert and Allison Druin : Both of these sound bad to me. As Neil Postman pointed out, TV is at its worst when it is trying to be good. Turn off both and teach the children to read fluently first.
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New York, N.Y.:
As mathematicians and computer programmers, why are you so interested in education? Why not encourage existing companies to make better educational software and hardware?
Alan Kay, Marvin Minsky, Seymour Papert and Allison Druin : Because we don't want children to go through what we had to go through/ Because children can do so much more. Etc.
Because existing companies don't know how. they are trying to sell more than really educate
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Washington, D.C.:
Do you think interactive technology is appropriate for all children?
Alan Kay, Marvin Minsky, Seymour Papert and Allison Druin : Seymour says:
NON -interactive technology is inappropriate for everybody
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Boston, Mass.:
Sally Shaywitz, a medical doctor at Yale, has written a new book titled "Overcoming Dyslexia". It summarizes several decades of work and the dramatic break throughs medical doctors, neuroscientists, educators and psychologists are making in understanding this problem. I think a key element is being able to look inside the brain with the new imaging technologies. Is there similar work being done for people who have difficulty learning mathematical ideas?
Alan Kay, Marvin Minsky, Seymour Papert and Allison Druin : Seymour says:
yes .. but even in dyslexia the problem is over-medicalized ... many children diagnosed as having "learning disabilities" do very well in the right learning context. Medical treatements are FAR toom often prespcribed when the individual could manage very well.
The worst case is drugging kids like me ... I am hopelessly hyperactive .. I hate sitting still ... and I havea low attemtion span for things other people try to make me do. Thank goodness. Result is that I can concentrate on what is impoiortant to me
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Brooklyn, NY:
What does "Interaction Design and Children" mean to you?
Alan Kay, Marvin Minsky, Seymour Papert and Allison Druin : Allison: Since I'm chairing a conference here in Maryland on the topic, I guess I should try to explain. What I mean by that it's a field that thinks about how to make incredible new technologies for children. But it also thinks about the methods we use to make those great new technologies. How often do we work with children? How often do we iterate our ideas? How do we come up with the great new ideas? We also need to understand the impact these new technologies have on children, and so Interaction Design has to consider what happens when we let loose these technologies.
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Washington, D.C.:Technology is now slowy creeping in the schools. There are pilots programs of wireless assessments and laptop and much more. Where do you think this is going? What do you think the classroom of the future will look like? Additionally, are we now just automating the same type of teaching and learning or are we truly harnessing the technology to teach and learn differently?
Alan Kay, Marvin Minsky, Seymour Papert and Allison Druin : Seymour says:
We are behaving like a society that had just invented writing and let each child have a pencil for an hour a day
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Cherry Hill, NJ:
I am inspired by the ideas of Seymour Papert,
Alan Kay, and Marvin Minsky at the IDC
conference. I actually came to IDC mainly to see
Dr. Papert speak. One issue that I have though is
the feeling that at the end of each discussion
about needed changes in education, there seems
to be an accusation, rather than an invitation
directed toward teachers. My wife is a sixth grade
special education teacher and when I share with
her a lot of the ideas from Dr. Papert's writings,
she agrees, and says the goals are the same. I
think that rather than blaming teachers (and
parents) for being ignorant, there should be more
of an invitational tone, asking them to join the
"movement", leading to an increased probability
of teachers becoming empowered and helping
change. Alan Kay during his talk today at IDC
spoke both about a great mathematical first grade
teacher, but then also made a general statement
that teachers are doing it wrong. I understand that
he is saying that teachers are constrained, but it
comes off in a way that seems to push away
teachers by insulting them for nothing more than
being ignorant to these ideas. I agree with the
intense passion shown by Papert and Kay, but
this could be better used to empower educators,
possibly spreading this passion. This is a
comment that any of the participants can turn into
a question of their liking and answer.
Alan Kay, Marvin Minsky, Seymour Papert and Allison Druin : If the issue were reading and writing and teachers were found illiterate, they would likely be fired or forced to get literate. But having teachers be nonliterate in math and science is sanctioned, partly because most adults have no idea of what this means and aren't literate themselves (and thus don't see what all the fuss is about).
It's difficult to make these points without appearing to be insulting. But, while one shouldn't blame parents for being ignorant (they are the previous products of the system) I think it is reasonable to hold teachers more responsible for their ignorance (and for not even knowing they are ignorant in many cases). And there is a long chain of cause and effect here.
The main thing in the short term is to try to get teachers to seek better sources of knowledge about these subjects than themselves. I think online mentoring could help a lot here.
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Amesbury, Mass.:
From my experience in schools and in my town, the fundamental issues about education come down to policy decisions. Today in the United States we under value teachers' great skills at establishing a secure environment for teaching and learning. I believe these talents are undervalued by most citizens because they seem to think that because they were once students they know what school is about and conclude that teaching is not that difficult. To change this perception I suggest that every adult in the USA should watch a skilled elementary school teacher teach and then be responsible for teaching the class for a week. Do you think this would help our society value teaching more?
Alan Kay, Marvin Minsky, Seymour Papert and Allison Druin : I think the public should value teachers much more.
But I think teachers should be aided to learn much more about the real subjects they are supoosed to teach. Having a secure environment with bad knowledge isn't going to get us too far....
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Washington DC:
These are truly wonderful ideas to enhance children's learning, but how can we bring the technology and the methodology to the classrooms in the most challenged urban school systems to the children who need the most support and attention?
Alan Kay, Marvin Minsky, Seymour Papert and Allison Druin : Seymour says:
How about using democracy ..
Make ths a major political issue.
If that doesn't work try demonstrating in DC
The example of what we did in MAine shoukld be inspiring.Now every middle wschool child -- poor or rich -- has a laptop (iBook). This was not easy to achieve. It needed a two-year-long often bitterly fought policial campaign led by a charsimatic governor (Angus Kiing) and a team of well informed actiists (including me) to convert a massively negative initial response to policial acceptance.
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Washington, D.C.:
Research is producing some novel ways to help children learn, many supported by computing technology. But getting these ideas to be common place in society seems to be still in the distance. What steps do you believe are necessary to help apply this research so it become integral in our society? Both in the informal arena of homes, museums, commercial products and the possible application of the internet; and in the more formal setting of schools, where it is necessary to balance a wide variety of demands; political issues of funding, differing parental attidues, and the momentum of the existing system.
Alan Kay, Marvin Minsky, Seymour Papert and Allison Druin : Analogies to what needs to be done for book literacy all apply here. This is failing still ...
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Washington, D.C.:
What do you think about attempts to make the Internet "kid safe"? I hear that the current filtering technology causes some useful information to be blocked. The "dot kids" domain doesn't seem to be taking off. Is there any real way for a parent to know what's going on other than watching along with his or her child?
Alan Kay, Marvin Minsky, Seymour Papert and Allison Druin : Allison: It would be wonderful to believe that we can make a "safe place" in this world for kids, either physically or virtually-- but I don't think it's possible. I think our attempts to do so with technology fall quite short of safe. I think the only answer is a people one. Kids and parents should see technology as a wonderful excuse to bring them together for learning and play. Maybe I'm being an idealist, but even stumbling upon "inappropriate" material with a parent there-- can be a great learning opportunity to think about the quality of our information sources. Perhpas then we won't need to worry so much about our kids!
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Washington D.C.:
I think that some of the best research is done by informal teams of researchers that share broad interests and goals. What's the best mechanism for finding and linking up with folks who share your academic interests? The competative nature of academia doesn't seem to support collaboration amongst people in similar fields even when they share broad goals.
Alan Kay, Marvin Minsky, Seymour Papert and Allison Druin : If there is a one in a million chance that someone great will work on your project for free, the Internet can now find several hundred!
People who are mostly interested in the romance of the pursuit are likely to have more luck collaborating than those who have lesser goals, such as advancement ....
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Arlington, Va.:
In what ways will technology be involved in unschooling children?
Phil
Alan Kay, Marvin Minsky, Seymour Papert and Allison Druin : I like this question if it also implies "+ better educating them".
I did most of my own learning from books mostly from libraries, and this is such an example that has had a very strong effect since the printing press.
The trick is to somehow get a notion of "above trivial thresholds" to avoid the naivete that self learned people ofte exhibit.
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Vienna, Va.:
What are some good educational software games or programs for an 8 year-old and a 12 year-old?
Alan Kay, Marvin Minsky, Seymour Papert and Allison Druin : Allison: We just had an incredible demo here at our conference by Alan Kay of "squeak"-- an amazing authoring environment for children and adults. You can find out more about it at www.squeakland.org. Another wonderful environment for having kids create their own experiences is ToonTalk.com by Ken Kahn.
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Arlington, Va.:
In what ways can technology be used to create environments where children's minds and bodies are presented developmental challenges?
Phil
Alan Kay, Marvin Minsky, Seymour Papert and Allison Druin : There is a lot that has already been done over the last 30 years or so. Stephen Hawking is the most visible example. A lot of interesting stuff (some of it good I think) has been done by Glen Doman.
More detail is difficult since there is such a wide range of examples.
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Re: D.C. Technology in schools:
Seymour,
I don't understand your answer. The question was about what the classroom of the future would look like since schools have wifi access and the D.C. area is one of the most wireless connected cities.
Alan Kay, Marvin Minsky, Seymour Papert and Allison Druin : Seymour says:
An analogy: The inventors of automobile technology could not know what the final eggects would be ... but they dide know that horses would stop being the major means of transport .
We cannot and should not look for crystak balls for the learnign situation of the future but we can recognize features (like horses) that will become obsolete. These include:
age segragated classrooms
one-size-fits-all curriculum
lots of conent such as most math which is deeply paper-based (eg the algorithms for adding and multiplying you leswrned at school were all about how to manipulate numbers WRITTEN ON PAPER
the sociual structure of one big personwho teaches and X little ones who are teached.(sic)
etc etc
Probably the term "classroom" will go away.
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Clifton, Va.:
I think Learn, Maine is counting too much on kids to 'act' interested. Kids these days affect a cool, uninterested and bored demeanor, but it doesn't mean they really feel it. Acting all eager-beaver can lose you status with your all-important peers. The teacher understandably wants to feel they're engaged, but keep on truckin' even if they don't seem all perky. I'm a teacher and I keep telling myself this, anyway, to keep me going!
Alan Kay, Marvin Minsky, Seymour Papert and Allison Druin : Seymour says:
Yes there is a point there .... but in Maine we are seeing much less reluctance to show engagement and interest. The point is that computers are also cool so that "cool" comptets with the "be bored" kind iof cool.
There are lots of factiors making for the "cool" beahviors you mention ... but let us never forget that one of them is that school really is out of touch with the realities of society and the lives of the kids.,
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Anonymous:
How young should a child use a computer? Also, can you tell me what good education software or toys would be good for a child that is five years old?
Alan Kay, Marvin Minsky, Seymour Papert and Allison Druin : A good analogy is to the book. They shouldn't be withheld from children at any age, but most of their early learning will best be done in the real world by physical interactions and explorations. Children have done some very interesting things at age 3-4 (see Radia Perlman's work at MIT in the early 70s).
One key is to understand more about the kinds of things and ways of learning that children can generally do at each developmental level,and that children can naturally be quite different developmentally by 2 or more years.
A simple idea is that the most important thing is to eventually have the child be fluently reading when they can.
Even simpler is that TV is far from the best environment for children. Treat it like a cabinet of loaded guns!
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Arlington, Va.:
How prevalent will portable multimedia devices (such as a "video ipod") be in coming years?
Phil
Alan Kay, Marvin Minsky, Seymour Papert and Allison Druin : Allison: Technologies that allow people to be more active and mobile should become ubiquitous in the coming years. We are already starting to see this in our cell phones that take pictures, video ipods, etc. The good news is that this will free children from being "tied" to a desk, keyboard, and mouse. They'll get to go back to playing outside, curling up on the floor, and learning in active exploratory ways that make sense for little ones. Hopefully technology will then be able to enhance our physical world, not replace it.
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Fairfax, Va.:
How do you see play technologies and learning coming together in today's schools and in the schools of the future?
Alan Kay, Marvin Minsky, Seymour Papert and Allison Druin : People are always learning, especially when they are deeply engaged in processes. The question is whether what they are learning is worthwhile or good for them. TV scores high on engagement and low on worth.
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Washington, D.C.:
Is the progress made in research institutions making it to the developers or vendors and finally, to the classroom? Or is there a large gap between the research and the products on the market or in the schools?
Alan Kay, Marvin Minsky, Seymour Papert and Allison Druin : I think some of it is, and you are probably right about a big gap.
It seems that the better and more radical is the progress of research the longer the lag.
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Fairfax, Va.:
Don't you think that your answers sound a little arrogant? Not all schools have the best facilities, teacher and educational resources, let alone computer resources.
Just to say, give a child a book and let them find out how to read and fly with it is easy to say if you have all the resources available to you. And, not everyone is as smart as you guys.
Alan Kay, Marvin Minsky, Seymour Papert and Allison Druin : Seymour says:
Don;t call me arrogant if I say that all chilkdren in the world should have food when we know that not all families have the best resources.
Not all schools have the kinds of resources we are talking about. BUT THIS IS A SHAME ON ALL OF US. It is a shame on Americas especially. The cost of missiles we sent over to Iraq would buy everythin g that is needed ...
Even if you think the war wqas justufued the calculation shows that we are talking about levels of cost that our society sepnds when its leaders want to.
Is this a democracry or what?
NO we are not arrogant ... or if we are we jolly well ought to be.
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Washington, D.C.:
Do you think that technology's impact as a motivator will decrease the more it is used?
Alan Kay, Marvin Minsky, Seymour Papert and Allison Druin : Seymour says
No
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Virginia:
In regards to training teachers. Don't teachers need to be trained in using new technologies and brushing up their teaching skills? Many times, kids end up teaching the adults and surpassing them, especially with computers. I don't think there's enough emphasis on training teachers.
Alan Kay, Marvin Minsky, Seymour Papert and Allison Druin : Seymour says:
Yes many timnes kids end up teaching the teacers. BRAVO that's how it ought o be .... they should be learning together
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Washington, D.C.:
How long is the conference and what projects and programs are being presented? Will there be another one soon?
Alan Kay, Marvin Minsky, Seymour Papert and Allison Druin : Allison: The IDC'2004 conference ends today at 5:30pm EST. But there will be another one next year in Colorado in June 2005. We've seen everything from new amaziing technologies, to being inspred by great thinkers in our field like the folks online today. We also had people attending the conference from 18 countries, so we've heard about what is being developed in everything from Singapore to South Africa. I'm looking forward to seeing what happens next year!
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Vancouver , Canada:
What do you think the underlying philosophical issues are that have led educators (and others in society) to view computers an a unique and value-ladden thing rather than a tool like any other ... best used in certain ways. A computer makes a bad paperweight but is excellent at teaching through simulation ... why do educators see computers as inherently "bad" or an a panacea rather than as a sometimes useful tool -- and then spend energy on finding out how it might be best used for learning?
Alissa
Alan Kay, Marvin Minsky, Seymour Papert and Allison Druin : Seymour says:
The idea that the computer is "just a tool" is one of the dangeroius anti-intellectual ideas circulating in education circles.
You can say that "language" are "wrting " are "tools" but this is just a metaphor.
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College Park, Md.:
From the viewpoints you shared at IDC it appears as though you suggest many older techniques to be superior to the current educational methodologies. You mentioned mentoring (similar to apprenticeships), and one classroom/teacher schools. Are there other past methods that you suggest, and what evolution in methodologies do you truly think will be effective to the masses?!?!
Alan Kay, Marvin Minsky, Seymour Papert and Allison Druin : Seymour says:
Ina genral way: the movement from one-room schoolroom (or the like) in to the large school was analogous to assembly line production .... and most of the limitations of modern school flow from that. So think of reversing that trend .. as indeed it is being reversed in manufracturing too.
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Vienna, Va.:
What do you mean when you say kids and interactive design? Are you saying that the existing technologies out there are not good and need kids to be part of the developing process? And in what instances? video games, toys? Aren't software and computer companies like Dell already involving kids as a testing group for their products?
Alan Kay, Marvin Minsky, Seymour Papert and Allison Druin : Allison: I would love to answer this question in detail, but due to the time constraints what I can say is that I think kids should be a part of the design process in anything we make for them. If we make something for doctors or lawyers or scientists we always consider consulting them before we create what we do. We should do the same with our children. I wish more companies were involving children, but it's only now happening as accepted practice.
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Alan Kay, Marvin Minsky, Seymour Papert and Allison Druin : Seymour says as farewell message:
I was "accused" of becoming "too political". But "too" and "accused " are the wrong words. This whole thing is policial and we should be out in the poitical arean showing our strength.
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Vancouver Canada:
How would you (Seymour) describe a computer if not a tool (among other things)?
Alan Kay, Marvin Minsky, Seymour Papert and Allison Druin : Of course it is a "tool among other things" but the other things arfe more impoirtant:
how about:
the most interesting object to undserstand
a medium of expression
the embodiment of a way of thinking ... i.e compourtauional thinking is what counts even more than the machine itself and this is sedulously excluded from most school discussion..
But thgias is too big a question for this kind of idea b yte ...read my books check out papert.org
and squeakland.org
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Alan Kay, Marvin Minsky, Seymour Papert and Allison Druin : Allison: Thank you all for this lively discussion! Hoepfully we can continue the dialogue to create new technologies that can make a difference for kids (and even adults) in the future.
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