Olympics: Gymnastics
Liz Clarke
Washington Post Staff Writer
Tuesday, August 24, 2004; 11:00 a.m. ET
The U.S. Olympic Committee supported South Korea's bid to pursue a duplicate gold medal for Yang Tae-young to make up for the scoring error that gave Paul Hamm the gold medal in the all-around individual competition. The International Gymnastics Federation (FIG) admitted the error and suspended three judges. Hamm said that he would adhere to whatever the federation decides. In the final individual competitions Hamm won the silver medal in the high bar event. Also, Carly Patterson who also won the gold medal in the women's all-around received a silver on the individual high beam event.
From Athens, Post columnist Liz Clarke was online Tuesday, Aug. 24, at 11 a.m. ET to discuss the final individual competitions and judging controversy in gymnastics.
A transcript of the discussion follows.
Editor's Note: washingtonpost.com moderators retain editorial control
over Live Online discussions and choose the most relevant questions for guests and hosts; guests and hosts can decline to answer questions.
Liz Clarke: Greetings from Athens, where the controversy, confusion and ill feeling is still running high after the gymnastics competition has ended. Last night's finale included some thrilling routines and perplexing scores. Ive spent the morning seeking answers and explanations. In short, it is a big mess, with widespread agreement that the scoring system needs a major overhaul. where to begin....? Maybe you have the answers! :-)
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Alexandria, Va. - favorite memory:
I was so proud of that crowd that booed the judge's decision on Alexei Nemov...what were the judges thinking? And why didn't Nemov get the gold after that performance?
Liz Clarke: Ive never seen in person or on TV a crowd take charge of a sporting event liek that! It was quite a display--8 1/2 minutes of sustained booing that brought things to a standstill. will try to explain in detail in tomorrows' paper. the short explanation is that the code of points, which tells judges how to score, rewards consistency and error-free execution. it does NOT reward creativity, daring or anything that fans woudl consider breathless, liek Nemov''s routine. Judges start by giving each athlete a perfect score based on the routine's difficulty; in this case, nemov started with the highest, a 10. then they nitpick and look for tiny errors--bent knees, crooked legs, etc, and whittle away at the score from there. if you play it safe, you'll like nto make many mistakes. if you dare to be great--and really push the boundaries, as Nemov did with 5 release moves (compared to Hamm's 3), judges have lots of opportunity to nitpick
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Minneapolis, Minn.:
Tim Daggett last night said that the South Korean gymnast in questions did four holds during his p-bar routine and that it warranted a 2-tenths deduction. With this new information, do you think that the USOC will change it's position on the duplicate gold medal?
Liz Clarke: no. It's true that the video showed the Korean had four holds (meaning, he paused 4 times in the routine--once more than allowed). The USOC's position is puzzling, but truth is, they have little say in whether a duplicate gold is awarded. only the IOC can award medals, and they will do so only if the sports internaitonl governing body asks them to. to date, that body (FIG) says the results stand and they will aks for no change. given that, it's easy for the USOC to tell South Korea they woudl not object to a second medal; it's a nice gesture, but one that they wont have to back up
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Rosslyn, Va.:
In regards to the South Korean Medal controversy, the announcers last night showed his performance and said- yes the start value was too low, but, he should have lost automatically 2-10ths of a point because he had 4 holds (max. is 3), so, with the other deductions that had come from his routine perhaps his score would've been lower instead of adding that .10 of a point? It just seems like -yes, the judges made an error in setting the start value, but yes the judges made an error by not deducting .2 because he had 4 holds instead of the max of 3. So.....it just seems like the South Koreans should just let it go and be happy the guy got the bronze. Paul Hamm DESERVES the Gold for the all-around.
Liz Clarke: you have a really good grasp of the facts. the review shows he was robbed 1/10, but also got away with an extra 2/10. South Korea understandably wants to advocate for its athletes. but opening gymnastics routines to video review is a very slippery slope, adn the sport is at a crossroads here about whether they want to go down that road. already today, Canadians are filing a protest over men's vault; Russians are contemplating a sweeping protest agains basically everything. so gymnastics is devolving here into Court TV
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Can't we all just get along, Washington, D.C.:
What do you make of the men's all-around medal controversy? Is it legit? Does Hamm seem to be whining about it, or is he taking it well?
Liz Clarke: Hamm is hard to sum up, and Im afraid his comments come off as more cold and unfeeling than he intends them. What he has said is that he sees no reason to give back the medal. he earned it; he followed the rules. The error was 2fold: one made by judges is under-valuing his routine; the otehr made by SK officials, who didnt protest in a timely manner. I think Hamm is on solid gound to hold hsi ground, but somehow he comes off as less than gracious i think.
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New York, NY:
Why didn't the FIG publicly comment on the claim, backed by video shown last night on NBC, that the Korean gymnast in the all-around should have had two-tenths of a point deducted from his parallel bars performance for having four "holds", when only three are allowed, though no such deduction was made?
Also, were the three judges who were suspended part of the same panel that judged the all-around competition, or not? Are the degree-of-difficulty scores judged on the basis of a written description of the planned routine? Are those scores known by all the participants and commentators in advance? How could the Koreans -- and everyone else, for that matter -- not have realized the degree-of-difficulty error?
Liz Clarke: many good questions , and i wish you were here to help me report them. First FIG is not commenting publicly on anything. Not 3 hours ago i had a car door shut in my face, as my mouth was still asking a question, by the FIG president.
Start values are determiend as soon as the routine ends. 2 judges have that job alone. The start value is a measure of the degree of difficulty of what the athletes performs. It's not set until the routine ends b/c an athlete may get tired and leave something out. If you think of a routine as a script, the start value is based upon whether the athletes actually says all the lines in it, or whether he forgets some.
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Fayetteville, Ark.:
I could not believe my eyes last night. How could that be, how could the judges be so obvious? The high degree of difficulty of Alexei Nemov's routine and his equally high level of precision DID NOT warrant the low score of 9.725 nor the revised score of 9.762. That was obvious to millions of viewers regardless of their nationality. And to make matters worse, Paul Hamm's routine, even though it was good, it didn't even come close to Alexei's. The true spirit of the Olympics was not only slapped in the face last night, but raped and left for dead. We suppose to be honoring and recognizing the true best athletes REGARDLESS of their nationality. We should rejoice for the true best performer even if he/she is from another land. How can we live with ourselves accepting a medal that we know we don't deserve? If this was happening to me, I would take it of my neck and offer it to the deserving champion, otherwise it would burn my neck and freeze my heart. We all saw the injustice and we should have more pride than the one exhibited last night.
Liz Clarke: Wow, you feel strongly, and I know many people here did the same. I totally agree that Nemov's routine was astounding. i honestly squealed and shrieked in my seat, which is totally unprofessional. He had FIVE release moves, and HUGE amplitude as he flew over the bars. it made everythign else look liek child's play. The problem , tho, is the rulebook. It gives the same value to intricate hand moves (like hamm did) as it does to Nemov's spectacular flips. The scores that resulted were a huge injustice, but i honestly dont think it was b/c of bias for one country over another. it's becasue the rulebook rewards the wrong things and needs to be junked. (also two judges changed their scores after being asked to reconsider, btu it wasnt enough to matter)
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Oak Hill, Va.:
Liz: What the heck is going on with gymnastics? (1) In your opinion, did the crowd influence the changes in score, and if so, what's to stop crowd influence in the future (good thing they weren't judging in Philadelphia!). (2) The athletes must be reeling (all of them), as they cannot possible trust judgements from the judges, thus everything is tainted. Dare I ask it: was there a grain of truth in Khorkina's rants?
Liz Clarke: oh my, yes. its so sad b/c there was great greta gymnstics here, but everything is tainted now. I dont think khorkina had a legitimate gripe at all; she was obviously unhappy and took it out on everyone around her. but the sport has passed her by, and she has turned venomous because ot it. As for the crowd, it's impossible to say that 8 1/2 mins fo shouting didnt rattle the judges and cause the change, tho today the top judge said it wasnt in reaction to crowd. surely it was. And if it takes an outraged crowd to bring common sense to scoring, i'm not sure thats a bad thing.
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Washington, DC:
Liz, what ideas (if any) are you hearing discussed for
reforming or otherwise changing the judging/scoring
process? Do you think there will actually be changes put
in place?
Liz Clarke: lots of general talk, and it may be too tedious to explain. but there is a move afoot in mens gymnastics to revise the rulebook to give greater reward for the spectacular points. as it is now, each stunt or skill is valued as A B C D or E, with E being the hardest. there is talk of something like a super-E , which woudl add a 0.40 bonus for a skill that breaks new ground. i think somethign for sure will change, esp on men's side. i dont know how quickly though
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Greenbelt, Md.:
Is there going to be a 2004 Gymnastic Tour?
Should Khorkina be part of it?
Liz Clarke: Great question! I hate to say I dont about the second part. there is a 2004 gymnstics tour and it comes to DC (MCI Cneter) in late Sept. I think ticketmaster has the date; i forget exactly when it is.
No idea on Khorkina, but it would be sadly funny is she took part, considering the wya she trashed many of her fellwo gymnasts here. She's also an aspiring actress, so maybe she'll go straight to film.
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Washington, D.C.:
Why are people taking Svetlana's comments about rigging seriously? All people need to do is point out Carly stuck her dismounts (which Svetlana didn't do), didn't make noticeable mistakes on the beam and generally had harder routines. Is there something else here that is not being talked about but is under the surface?
Liz Clarke: i dont think people ARE taking Svetlana's comments seriously. maybe I wrote too much about them, but they were so outrageous i thought poeple would want to know. every coach i have talked to can point out in detail why Carly P was superior. if anythign, they feel Khorkina was given quite generous scoring b/c of her stature in the sport. But one men's side, many of the gripes are, adn should be, taken seriously.
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Washington, D.C.:
Hi Liz,
In defense to Paul Hamm, I do not think he should have to give the gold medal to Yang. Honestly, even if Yang had the correct start value, we cannot assume that he would have scored a 9.8 or higher on that routine. I'm sure the judges (given what we saw last night) would have found some way to deduct points from him (possibly the 4-holds as pointed out during the telecast). The sad thing is, two people were affected by this judging goof-up and now one person who was overcome with joy when he had a gold medal draped around his neck will be frowned upon if he is asked to give this medal back for a score that we will never know. Your thoughts. Do you think Hamm should give his gold back?
Liz Clarke: well put. I have the biggest softie of all on most things. but as i have studied and thought about this a greta deal, i dont think hamm shoudl give medal back. he did nothing wrong. someone should answer for the mess, but not hamm. and mainly, it's a big leap of faith to say that if the korean had been given the proper start value, that the rest of the competition woudl have unfolded exactly the same. the all around is a competition that includes many events in sequence; if you alter the sequence mid-stream, willl it play out in the same manner? who knows. that said, I have great empathy for the korean and understand why his country is speakign out on his behalf
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Falls Church, Va.:
Yang Tae-young was given the wrong difficulty (purely objective mistake) but, according to Hamm upon reviewing the tape, also was not given mandatory deductions for certain aspects of his routine (objective/subjective mistake). If both mistakes were corrected, he drops to fourth and loses his bronze. So what's a world to do?
Liz Clarke: exactly; a slippery slope
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Washington, D.C.:
Definitely missed Khorkina trash talking her fellow gymnasts, Liz, please fill me in on what happened! Doesn't she realize that even those of us in the U.S. know she's an amazing gymnast and have LOVED watching her perform over the many years?! Even though she got silver in the all-around, she's still one of the best in the sport and no one can take that away from her.
Liz Clarke: yes it's esp sad b/c she has meant so much to the sport for so long. in short, she said the ight she won silver in all around that she woudl have won had the judges been greek. later, talking to russian journalists, she said the all around was rigged in favor of the American (patterson) and ripped judges for giving too much value to mechanical tumbling (dig at patterson) and not grace and beauty (reference to self). A few nights later when she fell on uneven bar event finals, she stormed out of competition before it had ended, not staying while gymnast, ameicna terin humphrey, competed. a huge snub.
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New York, N.Y.:
Given that the rule-book rewards certain prosaic things when skillfully performed, and does not sufficiently reward creative moves or chances taken, is it not ill-advised of any athlete who wants to win and knows what is rewarded to be creative or take chances? Perhaps Paul Hamm understood what was expected, and his routine was choreographed accordingly. What do you think?
Liz Clarke: yes indeed. you are exactly right. paul hamm & coaches were very smart in crafting his routine. at worlds in 2003, he did a far more adventurous and risky routine (4 releases); and scaled it back (3 releases) specifically for Olympics--to have a safe routine he coudl do in his sleep. It was hardly a dumb or dishonest thing to do; it was smart. It's like studying for the test in college; you read what you think youre going to be asked about. the broader issue is, where is this taking the future of gymnastics? A better place or a more boring place?
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Silver Spring, Md.:
I saw the men's high bar competition last night, and even though I am not a fan, I thought that the judging was fishy. Do you think that there is merit to the charge that, as in figure skating, gymnastics judges play favorites? Or is the judging so subjective that it has become impossible to adhere to uniform standards and criteria?
Liz Clarke: judging for sure is subjective; and yes, there are favorites. that's why rich countries send their gymnasts to as many internaitonal meets as possible to get judges used to seeing them & vice versa. That said, there IS a uniform criteria that judges must adhere to, adn theres a mechanism that tosses out the extreme views to guard against blatant and irrational favoritism. but somehow, it seems to be rewarding the wrong things - certianly in men's gymnastics
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Bucharest, Romania:
What is your opinion on what's happened yesterday on Gymnastics competition at this Olympic Games? Was U.S. Gymnastics tems (both, male and female) favourised by judges? washingtonpost.com:
Gymnastics Closes With Chorus of Jeers (Post, Aug. 23)
Liz Clarke: Hello ROmania! First congratulations to your Catalina Ponor who won two golds w/ fabulous performances on floor and balance beam. Also Marian Dragulescu, who did the best vault i have ever seen (9.9), but fell on anoterh to finish wiht bronze. I do think women's team finished correctly w/ silver, behind romania. I do think Carly patterson deserved all around. The men's side is tricker. Hamm obviously benefitted from a scoring error in winning men's all around, but i think it was a mistake fo stupidity not favoritism. The men's apparatus finals were a travesty, eps on high bar and parallel bar. that is the fault of the rulebook and judges that I think lack vision.
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More boring place:
This type of scoring is taking gymnastics to a more boring
place. All people care about is sticking the landing so
they do safe routines. The one person I saw being
adventurous (and being rewarded for doing it well) was
Catalina Ponor of Romania on the balance beam. Who
knows if judging was different if Paul Hamm or Igor
Cassina would have done more exciting routines like
Nemov. But they did what they thought they had to to
medal.
Liz Clarke: Bravo! I coudlnt have said it better. I spoke to bart Conner's former coach today and he was outraged over the same. he said if the only thign that matters in scoring gymnstics now is sticking the landing, why doesnt gymnastics put a panel of celebrity judges out there and let THEM score it! The skills that Ponor, Nemov and Dragulescu performed were fabulous and spectacualr, but they're being judged by a broken, simplistics system.
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Ann Arbor, Mich.:
I'd like to know why Catalina Ponor was NOT selected to replace Oana Ban in the all-around competition? That girl was awesome and her two gold medals on Beam and Floor backed it up. I seriously think she could have been a big contentder for all-around gold or silver. I beleive her only weakness was the un-even bars.
Liz Clarke: i wish i knew; their coach is a terrific guy and I wihs i had asked him that. I can only assume what you noticed, too -- that ponor is not solid on uneven bars. she was the star of the olympics, i thought
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Bethesda, Md.:
In your opinion, why won't Paul Hamm either give up his gold medal or agree to share a gold with Yang Tae Young? His insistence on keeping the gold despite the fact that he clearly wasn't the technical winner seems selfish. I know he's worked hard to be at the Olympics, but so have the other gymnists. Am I missing something?
Liz Clarke: no youre not missing anything. but i honestly feel badly for hamm b/c he's being hung out to dry here by International officials who dont have the nerve to come forward and explain themsleves. FIG (internaitonal governign body) issues a statement, adn then its top dogs literally RUN away from reporters trying to ask whats going on. The USOC and S Korea meet behidn closed doors. and poor Paul hamm, who has worked for this day all his life, is trotted out to justify why he deserves it.
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Bethesda, Md.:
Just wanted to add my 2 cents. The reason I hate gymnastics (and in the winter olympics, figure skating) is that the judging appears, on the surface at least, to be very subjective and arbitrary. That's why I only like to watch sports that have objective criteria in speed or distance. Once they added mogul skiing to the winter olympics I knew I was doomed. Any sport with a move called a "double daffy twister" does not belong in the olympics. This is not to say that the people who participate are not athletes. They are in every sense of the word. But judging something like gymnastics, figure skating or the trampoline is like judging art. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
My opinion only.
Liz Clarke: well put. and it IS problematic b/c you cant put a stop watch to it. then again, art is like that. it affects people in different ways, inspiring awe sometimes, jeers other times. i can only watch a footrace so many times. with gymnastics, skating, theater in general, you never knwo what youre going to get....
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Washington, D.C.:
Why did Russian Svetlana Khorina (sp?) seem so happy with her all around result at the time but is now saying it was fixed/predetermined? Russian "Sexy Alexi" apparently also said it was decided in advance.
Liz Clarke: she is not the first athlete to smile when the TV camera is on her, and rant like a brat when off screen. there is a rich tradition.....
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Silver Springs, Md.:
Let's talk about Tarin Hunphrey for a minute. To me, she was one of the overlooked players on the USA team. She was dead on on all of her routines and she was was delight to watch. It was such a pleasure to watch her win the silver in the uneven bars. One has to wonder if she might have even scored gold if she didn't have that slight bobble on her landing. Can we expect to see good things for her in the near future (possibly Bejing?) or is this the end of the line for her?
Liz Clarke: glad you asked. Terin is a lovely gymnast, very shy and unassuming, and has not been talked about much. but judges esp seem to like her - she is very artistic and lean, and is adds such a nice dimension ot here unevens. she just turned 18 and i dont know if Beijing is in her plans. (none of the gymnasts i tlaked to can look far down they road; they seem so exhausted and relieved to have gotten this far.) AS for composition of women's all around, there is plenty of cause for second guessing the lineup that was sent out. Terin may wellhave helped. i still believe they shoudl have taken a chance with Courtney McCool, who got rattled in qualifying. we'll never know.
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Baltimore, Md.:
Dear Liz:
Thank you for taking our questions today.
Did you hear anything about the US judge during the Women's Platform diving event. Apperantly, he (she) gave lowest scores to countries such as China almost every single dive.
Liz Clarke: the pleasure is mine! and no, ive heard nothign about diving judge. will ask as soon as i can; what a pity if anotehr sport is consumed in judging controversy
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North Potomac, MD:
What was the start value of Nemov's high bar routine? What was the start value of Paul Hamm's rooutine? Has anyone identified errors found and deducted in Nemov's routine?
Liz Clarke: I asked these exact questions this a.m. so am glad you asked. BOTH routines had a 10.0 start value. Gymnasts say both routines were equally difficult to perform (tho i dout it). but all gymnasts agree that Nemov's was far more spectacular and corwd-pleasing. The errors in nemov's routine, as far as i can tell, were two: a slight step on dimount; and with each release move (and there were 5) there was a slight bend in the knee. Judges who docked him for that and docked him 5 times for that really killed him.
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Washington, D.C.:
To answer the questioner as to why Catalina Ponar wasn't selected for the all-around: her start value on bars (assuming they used the right start value) is very low, a 9.1 or 9.2. So even with a fairly clean routine, it would be an 8.8 or 8.9--not high enough.
Liz Clarke: many thanks
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Anonymous:
I think Patterson put it best when she said Khorkina is a sore loser.
She's been comptitive in gymnastics for about 10 years now, and oddly, the only time she has called the judging into question is when she's not in 1st place? There's never been a time in this subjective sport when she has unfairly benefitted from the scoring? Hmmm.
Liz Clarke: Carly patterson was really great answering to Khorkina's rant. if it's possible to call someone a sore loser in a nice manner, Carly did it. And yes, it seems Khorkina has benefitted a lot from sentimental judges--esp here.
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Washington, D.C.:
Not a question... I just wanted to say thank you for letting us vent. This whole situation sucks, and I think we all got some much needed therapy today.
Liz Clarke: oh i hope so. now, can you come help me write my story!
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Arlington, Va.:
So you think maybe the gymnastic judges decided to secretly meet and conspire to rig the competition as to create some controversy and make more people aware of the sport. IT's unbelievable what happened in the past week. First, poor Hamm has to be subjected to scrutiny for his gold medal win, then the Canadian Team complains that Marion D was overscored on his vault, bumpin Schufelt off the medal podium and then, Alexi Nemov gets a TERRIBLE score for a gold-winning performance. Maybe the judges thought that by doing this, the sport could get figure-skating-like ratings boost!
Liz Clarke: I am not sure they are as clever as all that! but it sure worked; gymnastics is a hot topic now
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Liz Clarke: i hate to sign off w/ so many unanswered questions. they were just great; thanks for chatting and enjoy the rest of the game!
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