Olympics: Gymnastics
Liz Clarke
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, August 18, 2004; 11:00 a.m. ET
Both the U.S. women and men's gymnastics teams received silver medals in Athens. It has been twenty years since the men's team won a medal in 1984. The women's team had minor errors that cost them the gold to Romania.
From Athens, Post columnist Liz Clarke was online Wednesday, Aug. 18, at 11 a.m. ET to discuss the women's and men's gymnastics teams.
Editor's Note: washingtonpost.com moderators retain editorial control
over Live Online discussions and choose the most relevant questions for guests and hosts; guests and hosts can decline to answer questions.
Liz Clarke: Greetings from Athens, where there has been lots of gymnstics since we last spoke, and there's plenty more to come. Tonight: Men's all-around, in which Paul Hamm of the US is favored. It has been such a thrill to get to see it up close, but so very sad to see thousands (NOT an exaggeration) of empty seats in the 15,000-seat arena. I wish all of you who follow the sport could be here to watch! So let's chat....
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Washington, D.C.:
Hi Liz,
compared to the MAg 7 in Atlanta and the team that won the fold in Anaheim last yr, the silver medal winning ladies team did NOT look anything close to a gold medal team. This scares me in terms of how both Patterson and Kupets will do on THursday.
Liz Clarke: I coulndt agree more! I've seen almost all these gymnasts perform in other big events, and they didnt come close to showing what theyre capable of. Some athletes blossom under pressure; these girls didnt--tho i think Mohini B deserves lots of applause for the job she did on beam as a bakcup; and I think Courtney K also was courageous, competing with an injury that no one knew about. Carly Patterson just didnt seem to show up. I cant say how they'll do in All Arounds; I think Kupets will give it her all but Im not sure how constrained she'll be by the hamstring. Patterson is a mystery: she coudl dazzle or be flat
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New York, N.Y.:
So let's talk about Paul Hamm. For the most part, he scored well during the team final. THe only trouble he had was with the high bar. That said, how optimistic are you that he wil become the first Us Man to win the all-around competition. ANd who are his two biggest competitors.
Liz Clarke: Paul Hamm enters tonights all around as the defending world all around champion and the favorite. I've been off on almost every gymnastics prediciton Ive made here (ex/ Courtney McCool would emerge as the star..), but I do think Hamm will medal and could take gold. He's very steady and unflappable. High bar is among his better events, but he wasnt scored well in qualifying b/c he omitted 1 of his 3 planned release moves. His biggest competitors are Hiroyuki Tomiota of Japan and Yang tae Young of Korea. I also like Romania's Marian Dragulescu, the defending European all around champ.
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Washington D.C.:
I am outraged by the Romanians getting the Gold medal in Women's Gymnastics. Basically they showed the world that if you do simple routines then you can be called the best. Russia, U.S. and China all had athletes who continually tried to press the limits of the sport with very difficult routines yet were penalized because they took a small hop or balance check on a very difficult skill. While other sports are continually trying to 'up the ante', it seems like in Women's Gymnastics, if you try to perform a more difficult skill you will not be rewarded as there are others doing less difficult routines. I'd rather have the little bobbles from the Russians or Americans and have either of their teams win Gold as opposed to the simple techniques and 'sticking' it of the Romanians- of course they're going to stick their landings, their dismounts are the type you would see at a high school competition in the U.S.!
Liz Clarke: You raise a very interesting point--one that i was hoping to write about in a story, and one that really has emerged at thse olympics. first let me say i disagree wiht your outrage over the team medal going to Romania last night; i thought they did far better than the US and totally deserved it.
That said, I completely agree that what is beign rewarded here is consistency. It's a result of the new scoring format, with each country putting 3 atheltes up on each event and ALL of their scores counting (unlike past Olympics, when the lowest score was dropped).
When you're able to drop the lowest score, coaches can take a chance with a gymnast who's insanely brilliant and daring, tho maybe not 100 percent reliable. Under THIS formula, there is NO room for error. So coaches have to go with gymnasts who they can count on to do the SAME routine he SAME way evry time. In short, you cant "dare to be great.' you have to rely on being consistent. and I think long-term this format will blunt or stifle creativity in teh sport, discouraging gymnasts and coaches from pushing the boundaries of the sport.
Already some are calling for an end to the 3-up, 3-down format and a return to the old way.
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Great Falls, Va.:
One thing that appears to be going well so far is that the US athletes have handled themselves with class at the Olympics so far (Do you agree?). It seems that the athletes mission as diplomats is even more this year than in previous Olympics.
Liz Clarke: Yes, the athletes do seem to have handled themselves well. and i dont htink it is an accident. they have been coached in not inflaming anti-american sentiment. so far so good. i read a column by a US writer earlier today that actually faulted this premium on sportsmanship as inhibiting american performance on the game. in effect, the columnist called for a return to showboating and breast-beating to get some fire in the athletes performances. (The US hasnt won many golds here yet). I dont agree with that, but behavior IS a topic of discussion.
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Washington, D.C.:
I agree about guessing that Courtney
McCool would emerge the star of these
games. She's so graceful and does such
beautiful gymnastics...reminiscent of
Shannon Miller. Why is no one
discussing her complete absence in the
team competition?
Liz Clarke: am glad you agree with me. i truly thought she woudl dazzle. she was so heartbroken over her performance it was really painful to talk to her about it. and i kind of feel queasy about implying that a 16 year old who has made the olympic team has fallen short, even if she didnt perform to her ability. coaches left her off the team events b/c they werent confident she coudl shake off her jitters or disappointment. in retrospect, i wish they had put her up on beam and floor, where the US got killed last night. but it's easy to say that in hindsight. She is very tough adn won the test event here in athens this summer, which made her bad showing in qualifyign even more puzzling
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Los Angeles, Calif.:
Do you think that the 3 up 3 down is way too much pressure to put on athletes this young? I mean, there is already tremendous pressure as it is, but do drill into these young women that any wobble is going to cost them a gold medal seems a bit too much.
Liz Clarke: I think the pressure on the gymnasts is enormous regardless of the format. And yes, it's porbably even MORE than enormous with 3 up 3 down. One of the reasons they adopted it was to give smaller countries a better chance of doing well; it evens the playing field, in a sense, if a counrty only has to have 3 great gymnasts instead of 4. but i think long-term it's not a good idea. and i esp feel bad for the young chinese male gymnast who fell twice and scuttled his countrys medal hopes. im sure he feel miserable
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Washington, D.C.:
Hi Liz, I enjoy reading your pieces in the Post. As a former male gymnast from the 1980s and early '90s who was half decent (Class I level, which is one big notch under the elites at the Olympics), I just hope that other folks out there in the U.S. understand how amazing an achievement it was for the U.S. men to win the silver in the team competition. And to have a guy like Paul Hamm as the current world champion with a legitimate shot at the Olympic all-around title is simply an amazing turn of events for USA Gymnastics from the days when I was involved in the sport as an athlete. With so many collegiate teams cutting men's gymnastics, I have been surprised at the quality of gymnast we continue to produce, but the athletes and the officials at the top of the sport are obviously doing an amazing job, and they deserve all the credit in the world. washingtonpost.com:
All That Glitters Is Silver (Post, Aug. 18)
Liz Clarke: what a great comment! AS a former Class I gymnast, you have far more crediblity than I, believe me, so i hope people read what youve just said. It IS astounding, the emen's succes, esp considering the cuts in NCAA gymnastics and the fact that female gymnasts in the US outnumber men 6:1. for them to get silver was huge!
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Washington, D.C.:
I was just amazed at, on the floor, how balletic and light the Romanians appeared, compared to the U.S. gymnasts, who looked clunky by comparison. The differences to me were stark. I don't follow the sport as closely as I'd like, but how can the U.S. be so highly regarded? Was it just an off-night?
Liz Clarke: It was an off night. I wish i had stats to back this up, but the romanians are also tiny--far smaller than the US gymnasts. that gives them an edge in beam, where theyre so small the beam looks like a runway big enough for an airplane rather than 4 inches wide. but it hurt them on uneven bars, where gymnasts with height and length tend to do better. But even a discernign eye isnt enough to makes sense out of the scoring for gymnastics. it's all based on how difficult the moves are. you can perform flawlessly but get a mediocre score if your routing has a 9.5 start value as opposed to a 10 or 9.8
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Rockville, Md.:
Can you explain the backstory behind the men's highbar controversy? It certainly seems suspicious that the Japanese official would wait until two days before the competition to notify everyone that the move had been improperly scored for hte past two years...
Liz Clarke: i cant sleuth out anything nefarious going on there, though i have asked plenty. the head of USA gymnastics said afterward that the ruling was correct. he agreed that the move on high bar had been valued too highly for the last two years, and the judges here were correct in adjusting it. It hurt Blaine Wilson in qualifying, but I cant find anyoen on the US side, which has a vested interest, who feels there was a conspiracy or anythign even unfair about it. it was regrettable; but not unfair. (WIlson, of course, was ticked)
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Arlington, Va.:
I'm pretty fed up with what seems to be our apparent inability to be pleased with what American teams -- including the gymnasts -- have managed to accomplish. There are literally thousands of athletes that would be thrilled with a medal of any color -- yet so far we've seen a number of athletes, and commentators, poo-pooing silver and bronze because it's not gold. We need to get over this idea that being second or third-best in the world is somehow a hardship.
Liz Clarke: Cheers to you! I totally agree, for what it's worth. so you understand how awkward it is to write a story about the US women winning silver, which should be huge considering the 2000 shut out, when everyone is crushed and gloomy. I think Courtney Kupets had it in perspective. But this is the US way, it seems: To enter sporting events with HUGE expectations--8 swimming medals, 100 total medals, the US Dream Team's 4th straight gold. so when things dont go as planned, it's a shock. China, conversely, sets very very modest golds at the front end and its athletes generally meet or exceed them. I think it's a cultural thing that the US media is very much a party too.
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Philadelphia, Pa.:
Is there discussion there about Svetlana Khorkina's health/physique? Given what a camera adds to a person, she looks thin in a bad way...
Liz Clarke: oh my goodness, i cant tell you how much that disturbed me last night. and i have heard so many peopel talk about it. she is a beautiful woman, but had lost FAR too much weight. even her most graceful moves on unevens and floor didnt looked right because she is skin and bones. I dont know whats going on behidn the scenes, but it is impossible not to notice and be concenred
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re: new format:
I think the 3-up format is the most fair way to score. In other sports, every athlete counts. In a swimming relay, you can't just say, "Well, let's drop the time of the slowest swimmer." Every athlete has to know that his or her performance is going to matter!
Liz Clarke: well, i cant argue with your point. i guess the best thign to do is see what effect it has in olympics to come. it will be the format for 2008 for sure, though some want to end it now
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Old Europe:
Can U.S. women win without the home field advantage? Let's not forget: the olympic gold medals were in Los Angeles and Atlanta and the world championship in Anaheim...
Liz Clarke: good question. so far they have only excelled at home. The 84 Games in LA, which the russians boycotted; adn the 96 Games at Atlanta. But let's also say that winnign silver here was nothign to sneer at: also a huge achievement.
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Raleigh, NC:
Liz, Have there been any projections of the anticipated shortfall in attendance at the Olympics? Wish we could be there to help fill some of those empty seats!
Liz Clarke: this is such a touchy issue with the greeks. they are mad at foreign media for reporting so much about the empty seats; they keep referrign to tickets sold. it coudl be that lots of tickets were sold,, but if people dont show up, the events have no electricity or atmosphere. it is really sad to me. womens gymastics was maybe half full lastt night. and ever event i see on TV has huge sections of empty seats. wilbon tells me mens hoops is drawing crowds, but that's not really the barometer or olympic success
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Northern Virginia:
First, the only way the American women could have won the gold would have been for them to have a brilliant night and the Romanians an uncharacteristically poor night. Those young ladies should not allow marketing hype and over-inflated expectations to diminish their pride in their achievement. Second, I was shocked at Svetlana Khorkina's appearance. Was there any comment on the scene about this?
Liz Clarke: I agree with all. NEWS FLASH here for you tennis fans: Andy Roddick just lost in singles; to Fernado Gonzales of chile.
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Anonymous:
Is Paul Hamm the only American competing in the All-Around today? Which American men will be involved in the individual apparatus medals on Friday?
Liz Clarke: There are 2 US men in all around tonight. paul hamm and brett McClure. Paul hamm qualified for 4 invidual events; his brother Morgan in 2. Im probably leaving someone else out...
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Washington, D.C.:
Today on NBC there was speculation that the US Women's gymnasts could get a gold and silver in the individual all-around. Is this possible? Could someone like Terrin Humphrey with the way she has been performing cause a huge 'upset' of sorts and medal in the all-around? What are the chances the US women have on the individual apparatuses?
Liz Clarke: I cant imagine the US women getting gold and silver in indivudal all around, esp after seeing Ponor or Romania last night. She was fabulous. The 2 who'll comepte are Kupets and Patterson; Patterson will really have to perk up and perform like she did in qualifying (she qualified 1st overall on Sunday). Kupets is strugglign with a hamstring strain, very painful, that limits her on beam, so thats terrible luck. I DO think Kupets coudl medal on the uneven bars, and it woudl be great is she does
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Silver Spring, Md.:
Size of gymnasts? Aren't our women's gymnasts a little bigger because, well, they're generally a little older? You can't compare a 15 yr old girl to a UCLA graduate. The US gymnastics federation increased the age limit for senior national competitors, so if this were the Olympics before Atlanta, Keri Strug and Dominique Moceanu would be too young to compete for the U.S.
Liz Clarke: hmmm, good point. all of them. female gymnasts are more muscular these days than a few years back, and they have to be becasue their skills are so different. the gymnasts are also becomign more specialized, which im not sure is so good. thre arent many genuine all arounders now--instead there are vault specialists (muscular), beam specialists (elfin), uneven specialists (taller adn muscular). It's also like body type dictates the apparatus youre good on.
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New York, NY:
I -HATE- 6-3-3. We didn't see a team last night--we saw 3 specialists per event. And poor Annia Hatch gets all of 5 minutes, at the most, for her Olympic experience! I want to see 7 TEAM members, all competing on every event! And I agree about the lack of creativity and difficulty on some of the Romanian routines, although they were great last night. I guess daring gymnasts will be rewarded in the AA.
Liz Clarke: Yes, the format ahs really changed the complexion of the team competition. no more Magnificent Seven. Someone needs a nickname involving 3.
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Rosslyn, Va.:
Why did the Romanians receive such high marks when their routines seemed way too simple to be in the Olympics? I realize start value is dependant on the difficulty of your routine, if that's the case, why did the Romanians do so well? Am I wrong in thinking that their routines were very simple compared to the other major competitors?
Liz Clarke: well i feel horrible b/c i dont have a list of start values in front of me. i shoudl, though, and we could debate them based on the fact. But on beam, for one, the Romanians routines WERE more difficult than the US routines last night. thats partly because Mohini was put in at the last minute, and the US lost 2-10ths on the substituion alone b/c Kupets bema routine was a 9.9 or 9.8 and Mohini's was 9.7 or 9.6
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Arlington, Va.:
Liz-
I was appalled at the "analysis" provided by NBC during the gymnastics competition yesterday. At one point, I had to mute the TV just so I didn't have to listen to Tim Daggett and Elfi Schlegel just rip into 16 year old girls. It seems like their whole job was to criticize and nitpick. In the "interview" that Schlegel did with CArly Patterson, she basically called her out as a failure and the reason the US didn't win the gold. However true that may be, their comments and questions are completely inappropriate for these girls.
I understand that you do not get the NBC feed, but I was hoping you could say whether you've heard similar comments to mine.
Liz Clarke: ACK! You have touched a nerve. youre right: i dont get NBC and cant comment at all on what they said. Im sure the former gymnasts are trying to explain why judges deduct for things that arent apparent to viewers like you and me. and naturally this will come off as nitpicking. From My corner of the world here, I absolutely cringed when a US reporter (from another paper) asked 16 yr old Courtney McCool after her poor showing in qualifying "How does it feel to have your Olympic dreams crushed?" Believe me, I wasnt proud to be a journalist at that moment. it is a hard line to walk: asking questions that will help you explain what went wrong; and respecting the dignity and effort behidn the performance. When athletes are so young, to me you err on the side of respect and senstivity.
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Detroit, Mich.:
Mad props to Mohini for stepping up when she was needed! I think her and Humphreys were two of the best things going for the US Women's team yesterday. Why didn't Courtney McCool perform on any event? Was it because she did so poorly in the pre-lims?
Liz Clarke: Yes, Mohini, whom many regarded as the biggest long shot to be named ot the team, did a super job. she is also the tema captain and has done a great job as their leader. She really was a pro, and it speaks to the intangibles of age and experience.
mcCool wasnt put up on individual events b/c coache lost faith that she could keep her compsure. US coahces are very much "of the moment." it's "what have you done for me this second." under a 6-5-4 format, I bet they woudl have put her up, and she might have nailed the beam and changed the outcome. Under 6-3-3, they didnt feel they had the leeway to take a chance ona 16 yr old's state of mind.
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Volcano, Hawaii:
Ms. Clarke:
I would like to get your assessment of the
performance of the Japanese men's
gymnastics team. NBC's simple-minded
and jingoistic producers focused their
coverage almost exclusively on the
Romanian and U.S. teams, thereby
depriving viewers of the opportunity to see
the Japanese team's dramatic rise from
low in the standings to 1st place. For
fans of the sport, that would seem to be
the larger, more important story. How
deep did the Japanese gymnasts have to
dig to achieve that? Was the gold
deserving, and how surprising was the
outcome? Who was the standout? The
only time we really got to see the
Japanese athletes perform in the team
finals was in the last event, when they
were essentially cast as spoilers to the
American hopes. (A side note: Let's
pass a law giving ABC Sports exclusive
American rights to the Olympics. NBC's
never going to get it.) Thanks.
Liz Clarke: Im so glad you wrote. You raise many questions, comments i cant answer, but thought we should post your question to gives readers food for thought. let me start by explainign i didnt cover the mens team final; another reporter did. I did see the teams in qualifying and felt that china and romania were the biggest contenders along with US. From what Ive seen adn heard, the Japanese men thoroughly deserved the gold. Cnat speak to TV coverage becasue I dont see that either; we get a direct feed here (with no commentary) when we watch stuff on TV. When were at the arena, there is no commentary. The issue of jingoism is interesting. US media want to give readers, viewers info about the atheltes they follow. It's typically US athletes. But sometimes the media sell fans' interests short. I think it's esp true in soccer, tennis, gymnastics-etc--fans who follow it dont ONLY care about Americans; they care about Brazilian soccer, Switzrlands Roger Federer; Romanian and Japanese gymnasts.
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Liz Clarke: I have to sign off now b/c men's all around starts in about an hour and i must get to the venue. thanks so much for the great questions. I thoroughly enjoyed it, and you have really broadened my thinking. will try to answer the many un-answered questions in stories to come (got lots on age requirements; nuances of judging; scoring format; Khorkina's health) What a sharp audience! And if I could dole out tickets to gymnastics here, I woudl happily do so! It's sad not to see a full house!
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