College Admissions Process
Jay Mathews
Washington Post Staff Writer
Tuesday, July 13, 2004; 2:00 p.m ET
Many parents are over-involved in helping their child choose a university, accompany them on college tours and in filling out admissions papers.
When Maggie and Nate Pancost’s parents let them search for colleges on their own -- from booking their own flights to asking their own questions to college admissions officers-- other parents thought that they were nuts.
Many over-involved parents say that their own parents were not involved enough in their college searches. These days with high tuition and living expenses, parents want to make sure they are getting their money’s worth. However, some college admissions officers are encouraging students to make their own choices for higher education by offering student-only tours and student-only information sessions.
Post Staff Writer Jay Mathews will be online Tuesday, July 13, at 2 p.m. ET to discuss the role of parents vs. students in the college admissions process.
Submit your questions and comments before or during the discussion.
Editor's Note: washingtonpost.com moderators retain editorial control
over Live Online discussions and choose the most relevant questions for guests and hosts; guests and hosts can decline to answer questions.
Jay Mathews: It is a beastly hot day for walking around outside, so I am happy to sit in the cool a/c of the Post's Alexandria buro, right on King Street, and learn new things from your good questions. Don't feel constrained about subject matter. Anything that interests you is likely to interest me. ---jay
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Washington, D.C.:
Dear Mr. Mathews:
I've enjoyed your writing on education and appreciate your participation in this forum. My children are not yet at the college stage yet, but I've noticed that friends and family with college-age kids seem to think that college admissions is more competitive than ever - and that they therefore NEED to be super-involved in the process.
I grew up in a densely populated state and attended a large, highly competitive high school in the early 1980s. It seemed to me that it was a pretty competitive process to stand out and get into a great college then. I guess that as a result, I'm skeptical that things are that much more competitive now - and that parents need to give their kids that much more help in the admissions process.
But am I missing something? Is it that much more competitive now?
Thanks.
Jay Mathews: They are more competitive for that very thin upper slice of kids (and parents) who want to get into the most selective, and thus most famous, colleges. That is about 10 percent of the 2 million kids who apply to college each year, so it is not an insignificant number. But those of you who have looked at my book Harvard Schmarvard: Getting Beyond the Ivy League to the College that is Best for You (this will be the only commercial message in this live chat)know that a parent who has a self-starting kid who wants to do the college hunt on her own does not need to worry about her being somehow handicapped in a cutthroat race. A student like that is going to get into a fine school. There are hundreds of them, just as good as the Ivies, which you, and in some cases I, have never heard of, but which, the research shows, will set her for a life just as good as if she went to Princeton. If your child is hesitant, or slow, you have to help in the admissions process, but if she is ready to go, let her, and just assure her you are there as a backup.
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Island of Kauai, Hawaii:
Our son will be traveling to Cambridge, MA for his freshman year. What are the pros and cons of a parent(s)traveling with their young adult to get him settled in and attend student/parent orientation and other programs. He traveled on his own in April to attend an admitted students program.
Jay Mathews: I would leave it up to him, and if he is not adamant about going on his own, I would tell him you would be very grateful if he would take you along, since you always wanted to see that part of the country. And if he wants you to come, all the better. I went to college all by myself a million years ago, but that is now the exception, rather than the rule.
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Houston, Tex.:
I am a 60-year old woman who would like to go back to college to get a bachelor's degree. The field of library science is of interest to me.
I need financial assistance. Can you suggest some ways to find out about loans, grants, et cetera.
I currently have an associate degree but am not sure how many, if any, credits will transfer.
Jay Mathews: Find the college in which you want to enroll---state schools would be best. Introduce yourself to the people at that admissions office and ask them your question. They will have lots of answers, and will be charmed that a distinguished senior like yourself (I am one year younger, but less distinguished) might be willing to grace their campus with your presence. And if they don't treat you well, find an admissions office at another school that does. It is a good check on the quality of the staff.
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Albany, N.Y.:
Realistically, how many colleges should a student consider?
Jay Mathews: It is a matter of emotion, not logic. I would say no more than 9. That is the rule in some private schools. And if you are smart, 6 seems about right to me. But if you feel better applying to more, do so. It won't hurt, and the colleges have learned to adjust, even though they don't like this growth in the numbers of apps.
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Bethesda, Md.:
I once saw a panel discussion of college admissions staff. They acknowledged that the level of a student's interest in a particular college impacts the admissions decision, when deciding between two otherwise equally qualified candidates -- and that a student would get more "credit if he or she had visited a college WITH PARENTS. So shouldn't parents go along, just to show interest?
Jay Mathews: What an interesting statement. I would say exactly the opposite. The kid who shows up alone is obviously there because HE wants to be there. But here is the way to solve the problem. Either apply early decision, which makes it absolutely clear that is yr first choice, or have the student TELL the college, in the essay, or in an accompanying letter, that that is their first choice. Nothing beats saying what you think and feel. The officials were right in saying you have an advantage if the college knows you want it.
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Columbia, Md.:
How important are SATs?
Jay Mathews: Sadly, in the race for seats in those upper crust schools, very important. The 25th percentile to 75th percentile ranges you see for each school's freshman class, posted in the Kaplan, Princeton Review and other guide books, give you by far the best idea of what your chances are of getting into that school. If your score is at the 50th percentile or above, you have a good chance. BUT, and its a big but, the good SAT only gets you in the maybe file. You have to then have good grades, good activities and good recommendations. Harvard rejects hundreds of 1600 SATs every year.
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Washington, DC:
I am about to take my third (and last) child off to college. As I get to the end of my experience with my children and college, I think that the most needed (and missing) element is clear communication among all 3 parties. Colleges should provide honest communication with parents about the colleges' experiences with parents and students, what works and what does not work. Perhaps high school counsellors can help make this happen. And parents need clearly to communicate with their children about expectations. How much can parents pay? What will the students have to pay? Do the parents get copies of grades? (Colleges send bills directly to parents, but leave parents out of the loop on other information.) If parents and children can openly communicate about limits BEFORE beginning the college search, I think that the parents have reason to trust their childrens' judgment about which college to attend.
Jay Mathews: What a great message. YOU should write a book.
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Gaithersburg, Md.:
Some colleges specifically admit some students for summer school in advance of the hordes arriving in the fall. Full admission, not probationary. It's a good way to get to that college if that's where you want to go, but is this some kind of second class citizenship in the admissions world? On the other hand, it's not a turn down or the dreaded wait list.
Jay Mathews: It is not. It is a very clever way to find room for kids who are just as good as the kids the school is accepting, but is running out of room. Some schools admit you for summer, some for spring, some (this is my favorite) for the fall term at their European campus. In each case they know they will have room for you at the main campus during regular semesters because other kids will drop out. And they fill every seat this way.
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Madison, Wisconsin:
Have you had any feedback from the NEA or the AFT over your Teach for America Story this morning? washingtonpost.com:
A Very Sad Success Story in Our Worst Schools (Post, July 13)
Jay Mathews: I haven't, but I expect they will like it. It makes the point (for those who have not read it) that while Teach For America teachers--recent grads of great colleges with very little training---do better than rookie teachers who are not in TFA, both of these groups of inexperienced teachers in poor schools do not raise achievement very high, and we need to do more for those kids. The NEA and AFT may read this as praise for their more experienced members, but it is not. We got a real problem in those schools, and we need to do more than we are doing.
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East Meadow, NY:
What do colleges consider most important: taking the most rigorous courses available in your high school, grade point average, or standardized tests?
Jay Mathews: It saddens me to say this, but if we are talking about the most selective schools, the most important item is the scores, followed by the grades and then if you have some APs or IBs. Those three items are very close together in their consideration, however. Doing well in just one will not get you in.
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Jessup, MD:
My high school was really anal about recommendation letters being kept confidential. Though the teachers actually wanted us to see what they wrote about us. Whats your take on this?
Jay Mathews: A close call. I tend to think confidentiality produces more candor and truth, and I am biased, as a journalist, in favor of those nouns. But I can see a more open process working if the teachers were very good at writing the letters. Most teachers are not, the guidance counselors tell me.
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Washington DC:
What do you see as the most viable way to reduce or eliminate the dependence on SATs in college admissions?
Jay Mathews: An end to these baby booms. As long as there are that many apps for that few seats at selective schools, the SAT is going to rule as a measure. Once they have fewer applicants, or maybe more people who realize that they should apply to the great schools that don't have the big names, the admissions officers will have more time to look at the application, and not be so dependent on SAT and ACT. I would like AP and IB to replace them, but that is just my little fantasy. We might at least move to a system that uses subject tests, maybe not as hard at the AP or IB, since that would buttress high school teaching.
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Mitchellville, Maryland:
I am a single woman raising my 16 year old nephew whose parents are unable to raise him due to drug/alcohol abuse. They contribute nothing to his care -- and I don't ask because it would be futile.
My problem -- in 2 years he will be ready for college. He is a good B student. I have looked at the College assistance application and can't figure out how to fill it out. Neither of his parents can be counted on to help him with his college expenses (if they could be found) and I can't do it alone.
What could my nephew expect in the way of financial assistance for college.
THank you.
Jay Mathews: Buy the Kaplan or Princeton Review books on how to pay for college, and read them carefully. They take you through all the steps, and answer your good question. If his high school has a good and experienced guidance counselor, that might also be someone to talk to.
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Little Rock, AR:
What was the one (two things)that surprised you the most as you went through the Application/Admissions process recently with one of your children? Did you accompany your child to the colleges they selected to visit?
Jay Mathews: I went to all the schools she visited, since those are fun trips, she was our last kid, and i was looking for material for my book. The biggest surprise for me was 1. my own struggle with the yearning for a big name school that i thought i had cured myself of, showing how irrational a feeling it is, and 2. my grudging willingness to accept the SAT, which i hate, as a way for a smart kid in a VERY competitive high school to show that she is a good candidate even if she is not in the top 10 of her class.
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Washington, D.C.:
I agree parents can be overinvolved, but there is a positive side effect. As I look back on my college tours, I realize I learned the most while ignoring the tour guide listen to and answer yet another parent's typical question straight out of a college guide book (sad enough for me to say as a three year tour guide myself!). Observing students on campus--their interactions, their activities, their discussions--is possibly more important than any tour guide's speech. So maybe, in the end, it's handy to have the parents along... if for no other reason to distract all the people trying to sell their school to you.
Jay Mathews: Again, a very wise comment. I agree.
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Philadelphia PA:
Are there any resources (books, websites, etc.) that you recommend to parents?
Thanks!
Jay Mathews: If you are looking at the most selective schools, the main Kaplan and Princeton Review guides, the ones that analyze individual schools, are excellent. I like my book, of course, since you asked. And I think the website of any college that interests you will yield lots of insights.
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Fairfax:
Jay, I'm not surprised by the reaction of various colleges to overbearing parents. It's high time. These parents are only hurting their children in the long run.
I've been a technical recruiter, and it's painful to see how unprepared many college graduates are for the workforce. They've been spoonfed every major and minor decision in their lives. Many kids who otherwise could be considered as smart and capable have no idea how to go out and do anything for themselves.
Jay Mathews: I hope parents will read your good comment and ponder it well. We have to strike a balance.
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Larchmont, NY:
A lot has been written lately about how top colleges are increasingly catering to the wealthy and that these student bodies are sporting less and less economic diversity. What's your take?
Jay Mathews: I don't think its true. As I read those surveys, the average incomes of the parents are higher, but that appears to be just a function of the average income of the average middle class American being higher. The schools are more diverse economically than ever before, because there is more money to help low-income students than ever before. I am going to do a column soon on the fearmongering about tuition hikes killing off diversity. There is some good research to show it is not true.
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Arlington, VA:
What's your view on how (or whether) the US News rankings have impacted the college admissions process? I'm sure I'm not the only one that feels the magazine does a big disservice both to applicants and the institutions themselves by trying to quantify the unquantifiable. Lots of administrators are on record as saying the rankings unduly influence their decisions in admissions.
Jay Mathews: It does distort some parental decisions. I do know somebody who did not let her daughter visit one very good college because it was not high enough on that list. But if we did not have the US News list, we would be using even less reliable information, like what our neighbors say or where that new Nobel Laureate went to school. I think US News did us all a service by forcing the colleges to begin reporting some useful data, like average SATs, on the SAME statistical bases, rather than massaging the numbers to make themselves look good. We are intelligent adults and should be able to read a ranked list of colleges without thinking that is the last word.
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Ashburn,VA:
When you speak of gpa being considered for college
admission, what grade level are you starting at? Do
colleges go back before 9th grade?
Jay Mathews: Usually they look at the 9-12 grade total gpa, BUT if they see that the kid's worst grades were in 9th grade, and she did spectacularly in 11th and 12th grade, they are going to discount the earlier grades as just an adjustment period.
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Washington, D.C.:
Hi Jay,
I was curious if you believe that colleges have become more of a numbers game, then anything else. Do they even care about essays anymore? For example V-tech prefers if you don’t even send them an essay, and all they care about is your GPA, and SAT scores.
I also have a comment about schools preferring to give student orientations over parents with their children. Kids now a-days usually don’t have a clue what they are looking at when they look at schools. They don’t know what questions should be asked and don’t always retain the vital information that is needed when it comes to picking a school. Cost, social life, education, location have got to major concerns when choosing a school, and the fact of the matter is, the only person that can usually make the objective decision on what is best for the kid has to be a group decision between the parent and the child. If the parent picks the school without consent of the child may want to retaliate by not performing their best. But if the child chooses without the consent of the parent, they may choose a place that is too expensive, lacks the education and credentials for the field that they should be going too. I personally believe both parents and students need to come to a common consent on what school is right for the child, with would require an adult to participate in college searches.
Jay Mathews: Another very astute message. For big schools that have become very popular, like Va Tech, it has become mostly a numbers game. The numbers usually give you a pretty good idea of what sort of kid you have, though, and they still look at teacher recommendations closely. Essays have become a problem because we no longer are sure who is writing them.
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Washington, D.C.:
Mr. Matheews
Is diversity that big of a question during the selection processes of most schools? And why do some schools offer courses over the summer before students first semesters begin to minority students that get them ahead of everyone else?
Jay Mathews: Almost all selective colleges give preference to students with unusual backgrounds, including minorites, although low-income minorities get more attention than the children of university professors. Many schools take chances with bright inner city kids who have not had as much preparation as they need, and try to give them that summer boost. On balance, I think it is a good idea, but my own bias is that they should be looking just at low incomes, not race. And the real solution is to make the high schools better for those kids.
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Bowie, Md.:
What is your view on test preparation courses?
Jay Mathews: Sigh. I think they are pretty much useless, but peer pressure intrudes. I spent $950 on one for my kid, whose score as a consequence rose 10 points, because her friends were doing it and i lacked the courage to say no and make her cry.
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Fredericksburg, Va.:
Hi Jay,
What are you impressions regarding home-schoolers admissions to college. Is there any particular advantage or disadvantage?
Jay Mathews: It is still a bit of an advantage. It is one of those unusual backgrounds i just mentioned, and such kids often know how to make their own educations, which is what you do in college, if you're smart.
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University Park, MD:
After reading your article on Saturday about separating students from parents on college visits, my daughter and I had that very experience at St. Mary's College of Maryland. I was skeptical, but it was a total success. The kids seemed comfortable asking questions, and the parents were free to express their feelings.
Jay Mathews: See? Once again I learn something. email me at mathewsj@washpost.com and tell me this privately---did the college split you up or did you and your student decide to do it that way?
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Washington, DC:
Jay, have you heard anything about the future of the DC Teaching Fellows program? I remember that it got off to a huge start a couple of years ago, but I've heard little about it since then. I've also heard rumors that the program may be discontinued as it was something of a "pet project" of administrators -- particularly the former superintendent -- who are no longer with the schools, and that the current administration no longer supports it. Any thoughts?
Jay Mathews: They were doing fine last year. I spoke at their graduation. I will have to check on yr news tip. Thanks for it. I would be sad if that were happening. It has the same advantages as Teach For America. It gets bright young people into teaching, and some of them stay.
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Dubuque, Iowa:
As a professor, my biggest concern is the lack of academic curiosity of students. I think this is partially due to their parent’s insistence upon their child getting the right grade and into the most popular college rather than learning the material to enhance their scholarly skills. Even when ranking colleges, emphases seem to be more related to student services, athletics, and the social aspects of universities rather than academics. What is your opinion of this concern?
Jerry
Jay Mathews: This is the poison produced by our grade-grubbing culture. The competition is based on scores and grades and that does dampen intellectual curiosity. That is one reason why I would like to switch from the SAT to the AP and IB, where you HAVE to get curious and do some of your own thinking and research. The rankings are still mostly dependent on which schools reject the most kids.
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New Carrollton, MD:
What's the overwhelming obsession with the most prestigious college these days. College seems to have become another fashion accessory to go with a toney address and the right car in the driveway for both parents and kids. I attended - and received degrees from - both a large state - and Ivy League - university and I didn't notice that much difference in the quality of the teaching.
Jay Mathews: And you are so right in your observation. Spread the word.
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Lexington, Kentucky:
I would like to get your insight on two issues that seem to be growing issues at least here in my state of Kentucky and I am sure in other places as well. One is the existence of state run scholarship programs that base a scholastic award on a high school grade point average. This is anecdotal, but in my experiences doing recruitment for a large state institution here, this program dramatically increased grade inflation. This leads to question number two, which is that for poor and rural schools standardized testing the only way for the "best and brighest" of those schools to show their academic potential. For a variety of reasons (including grade inflation), grade point averages from most high schools can not be used to predict collegiate success. Any thoughts or ideas on how high schools, colleges, and state legislatures can solve some of these issues?
Jay Mathews: It would be nice if we found a way to make high school grading more rational, and more predictable from classroom to classroom and school to school. But the teachers would see that as an attack on their independence. I suspect we are going to have to muck along with the system we have now, and that will keep standardized testing very important, for good or ill.
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Fairfax County:
Do schools realize that in Fairfax County, an A starts at 94 instead of 100? Do they take this into consideration when they're comparing kids from Fairfax versus most other school systems that consider a 90 and above an A?
Jay Mathews: They don't. The most selective schools are more concerned about how your kid looks, on all counts, in comparison to other kids at that same high school that are applying to that same college. So the comparisons with other districts do not carry much weight in actual decision making. And the SAT is used to protect against crazy grading systems.
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Kensington, MD:
Jay: We've just been through the selection/admissions/financial aid process, and I have quite a few thoughts. But I'll only post a few here. I'm the Dad, BTW. I think that the slice at the top, as you put it, is a little thicker: Good students, of which there are many in this area, want to go to the best schools possible, find the best fit, and maximize their choices. I'm not talking about applying to Havard, but to any of the hundreds of other fine schools. All of that requires a lot of work and a lot of knowledge. At our high school, the counsellors are great, really on top of things, and do all that they can to help the students. Even so, it's a daunting task. I don't argue that a smart and motivated student could get through the maze with no help, but that's not what we did. The partnership included myself as the financial aid guru. As you know, the importance of financial aid can't be ignored, and aid packages that my student was offered determined which schools were viable for the family and which weren't. This was openly discussed and the boundaries were accepted by all of us. In the end, there was a happy outcome. I know that many schools in our area and outside, don't offer much college counselling help. In those cases, I feel that the parents must educate themselves and do what they can to help their children.
Jay Mathews: I envy yr kids, having such a smart dad.
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Arlington, VA:
A money question. My oldest child will start at a good state school this fall. We saved enough over the years that she will not need to take any student loans out. I think she should pay something and have suggested making her responsible for books (she has a summer job). If she wants to save money she can buy used books, search the internet, share a book, or sell old books she no longer needs. Any other ideas?
Jay Mathews: great idea. getting the student involved in paying part of the cost of college builds good attitude about the whole experience.
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Los Angeles, CA.:
I have two masters degrees in related fields and was contemplating, when I retire, entering an entirely different field and getting a third masters degree at UCLA. I read recently that colleges, and in particular UCLA, are now discouraging applicants who already have masters degrees from applying for another masters. The article claimed there is not enough room for all elgible students and priority is being given to those who do not have a masters. How true is this?
Jay Mathews: This is a new one for me, but it makes sense. The solution is to seek out a less popular but equally fine university, like Cal Poly Pomona or Cal State-LA or UC Riverside.
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Arlington, Va:
I will be a college freshman in the fall, so the whole issue of the college search process is one that I am not quite removed from. The whole thing makes me sick. Mostly, I am frustrated by the attitude of (mostly) wealthy parents in Northern VA, DC and MD who convince themselves that everyone HAS to go to college. Many of my classmates felt forced into the process, ad were not given the time they needed to evaluate for THEMSELVES if they wanted to go to college. Students who are pushed into the process will just be resentful. A good education is worth nothing if the kid doesn't feel like being their. (Scream!)
Jay Mathews: Too true. But they are now adults, fully capable of sending powerful messages, like flunking ochem so they dont have to be doctors. Such parents eventually get paid back for their thickheadedness.
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Slingerlands, NY:
I will be a hs junior this fall. Which SAT should I take? The new one? The old one? Both? Thanks.
Jay Mathews: I was afraid someone would ask that. I don't think it makes any difference in the end. Kaplan says both. Princeton Review says just the new one, if i have that right. Whatever feels good to you. You will do equally well on both, all the research indicates.
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San Diego, Calif.:
How do most colleges (not the top ones) view the difference between taking an AP class in a subject vs. taking the honors level class in the same subject? I don't enjoy how my school emphasizes teaching to the test in AP classes and was considering taking the honors class instead because it is more focused on discussion and writing papers/doing research. Will this hurt me when it comes to admissions? (I already have 2 AP classes)
Jay Mathews: If you already have 2 APs, and are taking at least one more in some other subject, you can take the honors course without worrying about looking bad. But i think you need at least 3 APs in something.
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Washington, DC:
I'd like to ammend the comment that summarized the study about Teach For America. It's important to note that the study found that, even when compared ONLY with experienced or with certified teachers, Teach For America teachers performed better in math and as well in reading.
I whole-heartedly agree with you that the
student performance revealed in this study is far from acceptable; indeed the study's findings underscore the enormity of the challenge we are all facing. This is immensely hard work, and before we criticize from the sidelines, we need to recognize that Teach For America's teachers, along with the other teachers in the study, are working in the highest-need classrooms in the country. And even in these extraordinarily challenging circumstances they are holding their kids level against the curve, and in Teach For America's case, advancing them against the national norm. We need as many sources as possible of teachers who are willing and able to go to the extents necessary to advance the achievement of students in low-income areas.
Jay Mathews: The TFA study showed TFA teacher doing better than a control group of novice and experienced teachers, and many of the novices were NOT certified.
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Jessup, MD:
This is a followup to the gpa question earlier..
colleges base their decisions on grades from grade 9,10 & 11 and require that you send a transcript at the end of your senior year. I will be a freshman in college this fall and have gone through the college application process.
Also, I visited colleges by myself and made the list by myself. My parents only encourage me on by letting me apply wherever I wanted. I applied to 8 schools (including 2 from the U.S News top 25.) However, the U.S News factor did not influence me. The school's academic programs did. I hope my two cents help someone.
Jay Mathews: very wise. But as i said, if you screwed up in 9th grade, and then got much better. you are still in good shape.
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GPA:
When a college looks at a transcript, do they figure out the gpa on their own and not give extra points for AP classes, or do they rely on the school's computation of GPA, which adds different points based on AP or honors classes, depending on the school system?
Jay Mathews: some redo the GPA based on their own formula. Most just accept the school's number, and move on to the SAT and recommendations if that number seems to be a good one.
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Annandale, VA:
How long until we dispense with all the chasing after admissions to "brick-and-mortar" higher learning institutions? At some point, solid content, ease of delivery, and the ability to gauge expected future performance will be universally accessible via technology.
Jay Mathews: Maybe. But by then I will have been dead for a long time.
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Walnut Creek, CA:
I recently toured a number of schools with our oldest son, the first opportunity I've had to take a close look at college campuses in years. We visited a number of the Ivies, some smaller private schools, and several UC schools. I was struck by the enormous capital investment that these colleges are makinge in luxurious amenities -- from multi-million dollar exercise facilities and entertainment centers, to palatial "dorms" with multi-ethnic "food courts" (rather than cafeterias), to exquisitely manicured lawns and gardens. It was like visiting a bunch of resorts. There is something wrong with a system of higher education (or maybe it's our culture) in which competition for students, faculty and the other things a college needs to succeed seems to turn as much or more on an environment of luxury than the quality of intellectual discourse. Meanwhile, millions of kids in our inner cities lack a safe place to meet, basic materials, and teachers and counselors who can help them escape the trap of our economic underclass. Does this trouble anyone else, and what can be done to shift resources to where they can make a difference -- rather than lavishing more and more luxury on the privileged (and increasingly spoiled) few?
Jay Mathews: Those are the rewards of the stock boom of the 1990s. I share your concern about this. Colleges might invest more of their money in making high schools better.
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Frederick, Md.:
In your research, how much did you find the presentation/tour given by colleges to parents differed from that given to students? Were I a parent in that situation, I would be concerned that my child and I were getting drastically different views of the college.
Also, is parent over-involvement a recent trend? I can't remember it being a problem 13 years ago when I was looking for colleges.
Jay Mathews: It is a recent trend. I think the presentations are pretty much the same, except students ask more life style questions, while parents want to know about safety and career prep.
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Hughesville, Md.:
I'm sure my parent experience is a common one. My bright child became overwhelmed by the selection process and needed reminders to stay on track and to submit materials etc. in a timely manner. We recently attended the college of her choice (Salisbury) freshman orientation in which parents and students each attend different informational tracks. I have to admit I came away reassured my money was going to be well spent. Parents were given solid information on financial, housing, and safety issues and even given advice on how to handle those "freshman blues" to help your child stay in school and focused on graduating.
Jay Mathews: Let's hear it for Salisbury. Thanks for this.
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Honolulu, Hawaii:
The same colleges that want "students to make their own application decisions" have increased their tuition and other charges at a much faster rate than inflation, and adamantly insist upon parents paying as much as they possibly can toward their children's college expenses. They include maximum "parental contributions" in their financial aid calculations, even if parents choose not to pay anything.
Those colleges should expect that, for as long as they continue to insist upon soaking parents, parents are going to be paying very close attention to what their children are receiving in return for so much of their parents' money.
Will my kids be able to get the courses they need to graduate? Are the classes intellectually rigorous, so that they're actually learning something? Are the professors teaching their subjects, or are they just mindlessly preaching their prejudices? Important questions.
My son is entering college in the fall. We toured a number of colleges during the admission process, and prying accurate information out of sugar-coating admission personnel was like pulling teeth. It's a bit much to expect that inexperienced high school students are going to be able to sufficiently cross-examine trained college bureaucrats.
What are the colleges trying to hide?
Jay Mathews: They are trying to put their best foot forward, like we do in our businesses. Your questions are excellent ones.
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Pressure to get in to college?:
What about the pressure to get into graduate school? (I know, parents have a lot less involvement in this) My undergrad GPA was less than stellar- a little below the typical 3.0 required for grad school. Any advice on things I can do to improve my chances of getting accepted a year from now, considering my situation?
Thanks
Jay Mathews: I think the extra curricular activities you pursue in college are as important as the ones you pursued in high school. find something that is relevant to your grad plans. I had some pretty poor grades in college because i spent all my time at the student newspaper, but that helped in getting to grad school, because i told them i wanted to improve my Chinese so that I could be a foreign correspondent.
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Alexandria, Va.:
1. Could you give us your version of “ideal parent behavior” in the college application process? I like best the pattern of Heather Dresser’s family, which you described in your book Harvard Schmarvard. Her parents had to manage the process at the beginning (because Ms. Dresser had other priorities), but then she took over more and more of it until finally she was doing it all.
2. Has anything else been published about this phenomenon? If we truly have a widespread problem of parents being far too pushy in this process, then I hope that other publications have noticed it. Because I haven't seen it on my own college tours, I am skeptical about how widespread it is.
Jay Mathews: Thanks for the plug. I think you have to adjust to your kid's own rhythms. If he is on top of things, back way off. If he is shy and uncertain, get in there. But keep asking him what he wants, and listen carefully.
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Alexandria, Va.:
I think the stakes and financial costs are too high to exclude parents from the process. but given that, college tours work best when parents and children are separated for all or most of the day, especially for tours and for sitting in classes. I remember shuddering in a "classroom experience" at a small liberal arts college in north carolina when some of the parents were so vocal in expressing their ideas that none of the kids said a word. it was awful! we went back for an open house the next year and the school had instituted separate tracks for the kids and their parents. this was much more successful. parents have legitimate questions and different perspectives that deserve to be heard, but some parents are so overbearing that even other parents can hardly stand them. my child starts college this fall. we enjoyed our college tour experiences, but we had let her take the lead on identifying the schools she wanted to visit. before her junior year, we did a number of "eyeball" tours when we would just drive through a campus to let her see what different types of colleges looked like -- big,small, private, public. and she had poured through college guides. by the time we started going on tours and open houses, she had a good idea of what she was looking for.
Jay Mathews: very smart. tell me at mathewsj@washpost.com which school split the tours.
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Washington, D.C.:
I wonder if asking questions on college tours isn't the best indicator of overinvolved parents. I know my parents were pretty hands-off with all aspects of my education, including picking out colleges, getting the apps in on time, etc. It was up to me whether I visited schools, and they didn't intervene when we all drove 6 hours to look at a campus and I declared the visit over after 20 minutes. But they did ask questions on tours because they're curious people. It can be pretty benign.
Jay Mathews: I agree.---a parent who could NEVER stop asking questions no matter how embarrassed his daughter became.
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Bethesda, Md:
Your article concerning the overinvolved parents was right on the mark. Consider a high school senior who was pushed into applying to a top university by her parents, convinced she would get in and when she didn't and had to "settle" for her second choice, incurred the wrath of her parents because of the cost of the second choice. My parents didn't get involved at all, which was a mistake. We pretty much left our child to her own devices and intuitions. She made the right choice and is happy. What happens to kids whose parents get them into a school for which they are not prepared?
Jay Mathews: They flunk out, or at least have a rough time. Thanks for this wise message.
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Washington, D.C.:
I'm a recent graduate who was relatively independent in the process of applying to schools. The craziest thing I saw in college was one girl whose parents were selecting the courses she'd take for her. They were looking over the course lists with her and telling her what to take and what not to take. Is it a wonder then that some of these people move back in with their parents after graduation while trying to 'decide what to do with the rest of their lives'?
Jay Mathews: That is a very sad story.
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Arlington, Va.:
Jay,
I'm a parent of two future Arlington public school students who have many years to go before college. I was reading the paper the other day, and it listed the numerous valedictorians from Arlington/Alexandria, along with the colleges they planned on attending. While many were planning on attending UVA (no shock there), I didn't see any Harvards, Princetons, or Stanfords. I think one student was going to Yale.
I went to high school in Bergen County, NJ (an area similar to this one), and the tip-top students often went to the Ivies, Stanford, etc. Granted, UVA is head and shoulders about Rutgers, but I would have expected to see some students going to these elite schools.
What's the deal?
Jay Mathews: They are going to them, but having splendid UVA at cut rate prices does reduce the lure of the Ivies a bit. Every year, for instance, 25 percent of the graduates of the Thomas Jefferson High School for Science and Technology in Fairfax go to UVA.
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washingtonpost.com:
That's it for the questions. Thanks for your participation.
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Charlottesville, Va.:
I applaud the parent who wants her child to pay for some of college expenses. My made me more invested in my own experiences knowing that I was paying for much of it.
My parents and I made a pact in high school. I could go to college wherever I got in, but would have to pay the spring semester bill. If I wanted to go to an expensive private, I would have to pay more (work more in the summer, have work-study jobs, and take out loans). If I wanted to to a local state school, I would not need to take out any loans. They would pay for my round-trip airfares, I would cover all of my 'pocket', pizza and laundry money.
This decision taught me the importance of budgeting wisely == and made me a participant in the economics of higher ed. It meant that I had to live in shared living arrangements for several years after grad school while I was paying off multiple loans, but I feel it made me a better person.
Jay Mathews: a great story, that makes wonderful sense.
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Cambridge, MA:
My alma mater also offered a pre-orientation academic program. To get in, you basically had to tell them why you thought you'd benefit from it - usually, kids from underfunded rural or inner-city schools, kids with LDs, foreign students, and others who thought their background might be shaky. I think this kind of self-selection avoids making such programs look like they're targeting minorities (which then gives the unfair impression that the school views all minority students as less prepared), while giving kids from weak high schools a chance to firm up foundations in math and writing while establishing a supportive peer network.
Jay Mathews: I like that a lot. Please email me at mathewsj@washpost.com and tell me which college did that.
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Washington, D.C.: Is it my imagination, or are college semesters considerably shorter than they were twenty years ago? We're paying huge, and increasing, bills, and getting less instruction. Am I imagining this?
Jay Mathews: I don't think so, at least not significantly. Many colleges seem to start sooner, in August, and end earlier, in May, than they did in my era. There are innovations like the J-term, a one-month opportunity for free-form programs in January between the two major semesters.
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Annandale, VA:
As a rising senior in college, I'm hardly worried about the application process anymore myself. I think it's amazing how overboard some parents go with their children's lives from Little League to this and they need a big shot of "Chill, people!" Although I've already succeeded, it wasn't quite what I originally pictured. I was one of those arrogant superachievers aiming at Ivies, but had to settle on my "lower-level, safety" school William and Mary (although undoubtably excellent!!!) after being rejected from more selective schools. I absolutely love it and would never think of changing to anywhere else. I think my parents were appropriately supportive and very helpful. Parental questions on tours can be way off the mark for what their kids care about, but often the kids don't really know exactly what to ask about, because they simply don't have the experience even to anticipate some issues, having (obviously) never been in college.
Jay Mathews: This is a very good message for parents to read carefully, because our kids usually turn out this smart and this balanced, no matter what we think of them when they are heading off to college without our august presence to guide them.
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Legacy:
How much does it help to have a parent or grandparent who attended the school one's applying to? I'm talking Ivy League.
Jay Mathews: The grandparent legacy gives a little boost, and more if there is a building on campus with the grandparent's name on it and that trust fund is still sending cash to the university coffers. But these days, when we are talking Ivies, we are talking about widespread legacy disappointment. You have to have the top grades, scores, activities and recommendations. Being a legacy might allow you to get in when other kids at your school with similarly splendid records do not. But the traditional dumb son of wealth and power no longer gets in at the most selective schools, with few exceptions.
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Little Rock, AR:
There is a debate that is engaged in from time to time on a web site devoted to the college admissions process about what might be the biggest "hook" in gaining admission to an Ivy or a top liberal arts college for a candidate that might not otherwise present with credentials that would (arguably) qualify for admission. Did your research touch upon this issue?
Jay Mathews: A major activity triumph--publishing a novel, winning the state basketball tournament, starring in American Pie 4---can do that. Otherwise, no.
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Portland, OR:
I'm going to be a high school junior in the fall, and am wondering how to best narrow down which schools I'll be applying to. I'm an A student who takes challenging courses, but there are so many colleges and I don't know any college-age students and am unable to travel. Do you have any reccomendations?
Jay Mathews: Talk to a counselor or teacher who knows you well. They will have good ideas.
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Pittsburgh:
My God daughter has minimum interest in college. She is in her senior year. Somehow in the last 2 years, she has lost her appitite for college. Her parents seem unconcerned, what's a God Father to do?
Jay Mathews: Suggest they let her get a job after high school graduation, and grow up a bit.
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Arlington, VA:
I'm an alumnae admissions rep for my undergraduate institution, which was ranked #1 in Quality of Life by Princeton Review the last TWO years in a a row...but so few people have ever heard of the school that the application numbers are still (in my opinion) kind of low. I love my alma mater and know that it prepared me for my career (I'm in law school now)...what's an easy way for me to get that message across to people who are only concerned with the Ivies?
Jay Mathews: just keep talking about it, and send me an email at mathewsj@washpost.com telling me more.
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San Carlos, CA:
I have a bright thirteen-year-old who is happily exploring the world. She reads, she hangs out with her friends, she talks to people on the Internet. She has straight As and is signed up for pre-AB courses in high school.
Many people I know are carefully grooming their children -- making sure they have bankable interests like music and sports. My daughter doesn't care about either of these -- she loves writing and works on it carefully by herself. She has a few close friends, but is not a joiner.
I'm proud of my child -- she seems to be to be well-rounded and self-motivated. I worry that I should already be entering her in the rat race; I don't want to, but it seems to be the thing to do.
Your thoughts?
Jay Mathews: Nope. See my first answer. There will be a great college for her. Don't worry and don't push.
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Westfield NJ:
We talk about the gap between public and private schools...doesn't the same thing exist in higher education? (When someone talks about sending their child to a "good college," they are almost never referring to a public institution.) How do we narrow the gap between elite colleges and others?
Jay Mathews: there is no real gap, except the state schools cost less. I can name 75 state universities right now that provide as good an education as Harvard.
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10th and Penn, NW:
From last year I seem to recall that one of your kids went off to her first year of college last fall at Pomona in California. Did she enjoy it and think she made the right choice?
Jay Mathews: She did, and it was exactly the right choice. She even enjoyed the concussion suffered during a really tough softball game with CMC-Scripps-Mudd.
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Washington DC:
This isn't a question, but a suggestion for that woman courageously raising her nephew. She might also look into some legal guidance for things such as being declared an emancipated minor which could affect his eligibility for financial aid in a positive manner.
Jay Mathews: good idea.
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Silver Spring, MD:
My impression is that colleges used to want "well-rounded" students but now one needs to really stand out in some area (sports, music) in order to be accepted by a competitive college. My son has good grades and takes challenging classes. He plays and enjoys sports and also plays two instruments, but he does not excel at any extra-curricular activity. What can he do to stand out more in the application process? I should add that our family comes from an under-represented minority group. My son is biligual and bicultural.
Jay Mathews: the family background will help. you are right about well-roundedness. it no longer sells. you should encourage him to pursue his favorite activity--one of those instruments?--to the highest possible level.
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Ellicott City, MD:
How competitive has admission to St. Mary's College become? If you know, will a 3.7 GPA and an 1190 SAT (600 verbal, 590 math) get the job done?
Jay Mathews: you are a little bit below the median, but you still have a shot.
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Bloomfield HIlls, Michigan:
Dear Mr. Mathews:
I have been a university professor throughout my 36 year career, and have visited many universities during that time. I went to an Ivy League college and medical school, and my wife has bachelor and Ph.D. degrees from similar schools. Finally, like you, I have interviewed students for Harvard, as recently as this past year.
With this background, my question is: How can we realistically remove ourselves from our 17 year old's choice of a college (now ongoing)? He has had first impressions of colleges that are sometimes unrealistically bad (Harvard was an example of "urban sprawl", Princeton had "overwhelming undergraduates that -he] could not match). Shouldn't parents be responsible for his having sound advice, even if it sometimes may seem like heavy-handed persuasion to him?
By the way, which colleges offer parent-free tours and information sessions?
Thanks for the help. I have enjoyed your helpful writings, including "Harvard, Schmarvard"
Malcolm Mitchell
Jay Mathews: You should express all your well-considered and well-grounded views, but he has to decide. the two schools that i know divide the tours are Kenyon and Bates, and St. Mary's of Md. started to do so after my piece came out.
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Alexandria, Va.:
A bit off-point here, but I was wondering if you have any information on the view of college admissions officials in situations in which the prospective student suffers from a type of disability--such as Asperger's Syndrome--which has impacted negatively upon the student's coursework in high school for reasons completely unrelated to his or her intellectual abilities. The student I am thinking of has a high SAT score (over 1400) yet picked up numerous C's early in high school because of his failure to do homework on time and his inability to understand the importance of grades. His record has improved recently, and now that he is coming up on his senior year he hopes to get into UVa. Do the admissions officials take into account a documented disability (for which he has an IEP in high school) to give that student a break, or do they avoid such applicants?
Jay Mathews: They make allowances for the disability, and will notice that his grades are getting better. Let me know what happens.
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East Lansing, Mich.:
Your article on Sunday was right on. I went through the admissions process 3 years ago. My friend’s mom not only went to visit the campus with him, but insisted on staying in a hotel near campus during freshman orientation. She selected all of his classes and grilled his roommate with personal questions about drug use and letting girls into his room. His roomate requested a new roommate before classes even started. She even talked to his Resident Assistant after school started to make sure he wasn't getting into trouble. Can students do anything to combat the over-involved parent?
Jay Mathews: Be calm, be polite, and remember the minute you get to college, you can turn off yr cell phone and ignore their emails.
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McLean, Va.:
My son really doesn't want to play sports in high school. He is an excellent student, but I'm afraid that this will eliminate him from consideration at top schools who want their students to have it all. Do you agree?
Jay Mathews: Colleges dont demand a sports activity, just SOME activity that the kids takes very deep. If anything, some of the selective schools are bored with jocks. So if you have a poet, a basketweaver, a mime, a gardener, whatever, tell them to work at it, compete in contests and maybe make some money at it. All that will be impressive.
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Herndon, Va.:
As an extra bit of advice for parents - it's usually not in your interest to make the decision for your kids. As a current college student, many of my friends have either transferred in to, or out of, my college, simply because they found they didn't like it. In many cases this adds extra years and extra tens of thousands of dollars on to the price tag. Let your kid pick, and get it right the first time.
Now for my question... as a current college student, what role (if any) do you see parents playing in the application process for grad/law school?
Jay Mathews: Nada, unless they are in that profession and have useful advice.
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McLean, Va.:
My son is a rising junior and has started looking at colleges. My son is naive so he doesn't understand this, but he's not getting into high-class schools based on his own credentials or even intelligence. He gets by in high school thanks to my resources & support of local school board officials (thus intimidating wayward teachers). However, for college he's going to need our family's cash to "make the case". I can't effectively leverage our "advantages" if I don't control where he's looking, so I can identify who to contact (behind his back, of course). How can I coopt my son into bringing me into the process, short of withholding college funding from him? Thank you for your thoughts--I enjoy your column very much.
Jay Mathews: Time will help. Boys in particular get interested later, but once his friends start talking about college, he will come around. For now, just talk about yr experiences, or experiences of people you know, stories that hold lessons for him.
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Medford, Mass.:
Hello Mr. Mathews,
I thoroughly enjoy reading your Class Struggle columns. As a rising college senior interested in education issues, I find your pieces to be very thought-provoking.
When I was applying to schools four years ago as a high school senior, my parents were very hands-on in terms of my application essays. I wanted to write my own essays, and if my parents wanted to help, they could correct my grammatical mistakes. Yet when I protested their involvement, as suggested by my teachers at the time, they responded, "well then your teachers can pay $40,000 a year to send you to school."
And I couldn't really disagree with them. With the high cost of a college education, do parents have a right to try and ensure that their children get into the best school for their child?
What are your thoughts?
Jay Mathews: Uh, no. They are going to have to pay $40,000 for a famous school or an unfamous but equally good one that is easier to get into. Why not let you control the process, and let them just make sure that the schools that you apply to are of good quality. There are many that fill that bill.
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Herndon, Va.:
Mr. M: Your excellent story scared me. "Pushy" and "over controlling" are mild terms for some of the parents described. When we took our sons on college "expeditions," we made sure they did a lot of checking on their own - and most colleges have the good sense to separate the prospective students and parents as much as possible. I hope that when these unlucky kids with controlling parents get married, their folks don't insist going along on the honeymoon!
Jay Mathews: I share your hope.
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Jay Mathews:
Thanks for the great questions. As usual, I received several good story ideas. I am told we had more than 150 questions, and so i had to confine myself to just the non repetitive ones, but with that kind of interest, we will try to do this again soon.
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