With Karl Vick Washington Post Foreign Service Wednesday, July 23, 2003; 11:00 a.m. ET
With reports of several civilians killed and hundreds wounded, rebels continue their third attempt to take the Liberia's capital of Monrovia. What is the mood like as Liberians continue to wait for peacekeepers to arrive? Washington Post foreign correspondent Karl Vick, who recently returned from reporting in Liberia, will be online Wednesday, July 23 at 11 a.m. ET, to discuss the Liberian civil war and scene on the ground in Monrovia. Submit your questions and comments before or during the discussion. Editor's Note: washingtonpost.com moderators retain editorial control over Live Online discussions and choose the most relevant questions for guests and hosts; guests and hosts can decline to answer questions.
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Karl Vick: In Sierra Leone, which I passed through on my out of Liberia on Monday, the customary greeting is: "How da body?"
Expected response: "Da body fine."
And it is. I escaped that benighted sub-region ("region" status being reserved for West Africa at large) with nary a scratch. Other reporters haven't been quite so lucky -- two wounded so far, one very seriously -- and of course the Liberians are dropping by the score. The body count isn't known, but relief workers who've been there for all three attacks on the city in recent weeks say it may be worse than the earlier rounds, in the end.
It's just hellacious, mindless, generalized violence afoot in Monrovia -- indiscriminate and with only the crudest military effect.
That doesn't mean we can't talk about it, though.
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Oakland, Calif.: What are your thoughts regarding the absence of any U.S. moral leadership in response to the Liberian crisis. I am saddened especially by the absence of any organized response or pressure from the African American political leadership. If there is not an African country that is more deserving of our support, I don't know one.
Karl Vick: My thoughts are no more profound or outraged than those of the US's partners on the Security Council, who blandly point out the following:
Just to the north of Liberia is Sierra Leone. When the atrocities in Sierra Leone reached a point of gothic horror that the world could no longer quite ignore, it was Britain that sent in the troops that kept the warring parties apart long enough for order to be restored. The country had been a British colony, and naturally looked to its former master for help.
Just to the south of Liberia is Ivory Coast. When that former French colony found its way to civil war after decades as the relatively prosperous, famously stable anchor of Francophone Africa, the nation that sent the troops that are still there keeping the warring parties apart was … France.
The United States never was much on colonies. But Liberia is a lot closer to being a former colony than any other African country can ever hope to claim. The organization that founded the country went by the name the American Colonization Society, shipping freed American slaves to settle the coastal areas of what became Liberia. It was Washington that fended off attempts by France and other European powers to nibble away at the interior territory marked "Liberia" on the map.
And when the call went out for an "international stabilization force" to stand between the three warring parties in the present conflict there, eyes naturally turned to Washington. "It's their turn," said one of the ambassadors to the Security Council. And the Bush administration seemed to step up to the challenge.
But that was a month ago, and it's still all talk.
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Betheda, Md.: Can you very briefly explain the history of the current conflict between President Charles Taylor and the rebels?
Karl Vick: I can but try. In fact the exact chronological origins are not something I lived through or covered. For those, I relied especially on the excellent and well-regarded reports of the International Crisis Group, whose URL may well be www.crisisweb.org
Basically, though, it's warlord v. warlord, with state backing. Taylor has his own state, of course, though he controls an ever-smaller portion of it.
LURD, or Liberians United for Reconciliation and Demoracy, is backed by neighboring states that Taylor has messed with in the past: Guinea, where he allegedly supported a coup; Ivory Coast, where he sent troops to battle the Abidjan government in its own civil war; and, most infamously, Sierra Leone, where Taylor supported the RUF, notorious for asking their civilian victims, "short sleeves or long sleeves?" before amputating their arms. The answer guided the machete above or below the elbow.
There's a second group too, known as MODEL, which is backed chiefly by Ivory Coast and holds areas closest to that country.
Behind the state sponsorships, however, there tend to be personal grudges, some based in political marriages that recall monarchist Europe. Others find their origins in perceived personal insults, such as how the then-president of Sierra Leone responded to Taylor (with inadequate regard, apparently) when he was a rebel himself and came around asking for help.
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Washington, D.C.: Do you think the ghost of Somalia looms large in U.S. memory and may be a key reason why we seem loathe to send in help?
Karl Vick: Got too. The images that people now have filtered through Ridley Scott's lens were a lot more raw the first time around. The dragging of that soldier's body through the streets of Mogadishu generated what Jackson Diehl and others called the "CNN effect," shorthand for a profound reluctance for Washington to get involved on the ground overseas for higher purposes, but especially in Africa.
Obviously 9/11 and the doctrine of pre-emption has overtaken that as an operating assumption. But the memory is there, and bone-deep.
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McLean, Va.: Where is Charles Taylor now and who will escort him out of the country?
Karl Vick: McLean, or Langley?
Last I heard, he was at his house on the outskirts of Monrovia, a neighborhood called Congotown for really intersting reasons....
The particulars of his departure are of course the subject of great speculation. I'd assume that Obasanjo would send a Nigerian government jet to pick him up. There's a military airfield near his house in the event he can't get to the main international airport, Robertsfield, about 30-40 miles out of town.
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Houston, Tex.: Did you enjoy your stay at the Mammy Yoko?
Karl Vick: I was in Freetown only a couple of hours, so I didn't get the opportunity to enjoy any hospitality except the embassy press officer's. But even that short a time shows how turning a place -- Sierra Leone is what we're talking about -- into a UN protectorate does bring in the big money. Looked like aid worker r&r heaven, and consultant city: all those nice new restaurants and hotels..
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Georgetown, Washington, D.C.: The Post quoted a Liberian as saying that "this is no Somalia" or something to that effect.
Those words are still resonating with me.
Is that an accurate statement?
Karl Vick: All Liberians say this, and rightly so.
Begin with Liberia's sense of itself as a godchild of the US. The literally based their country on ours: three branches of government, a senate and a house, the only dollar on the continent. There's even 110-volt electricity, with US-style plugs. Tons of people have relatives in the States, and almost everyone says that respect for the US is and its fighting forces runs so deep that, in the words of Taylor himself, one US Marine standing in the street with a whistle could stop the fighting.
Possibly this is an overstatement. But.
But no one ever said such a thing about Somalia, a country quite unique in Africa (and one that in some ways does not regard itself as African). Somalis are extraordinarily proud, and clannish to the point of xenophobia. Also famously war-like. Not the qualities one looks for in a country to which one is sending troops. As we learned.
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Brentwood, Md.: Having been there yourself, could you describe the extent of the rebel fighting? What kind of peacekeeping mission do you think would be necessary to quell the warfare? In your opinion, are West African troops capable of this alone?
Karl Vick: The fighting is weird. Not fighting as we recognize it at all, to a large extent.
In the bush, where there's nothing hard to hide behind except maybe the occasional rock, the fighting is mostly noise, to hear some tell it. The attacking side fires a lot, to announce it's intentions. The defending side falls back. This is how much of the war in Congo was fought, and in one of the ICG reports a Western military officer is quoted as saying it's even more like a "cartoon" in Liberia: basically a (very noisy, if that's possible) dumbshow in which the object is not to engage the enemy but rather to loot what the fleeing civilians have left behind.
Things get different when the attackers reach a large city like Monrovia, however. For one thing, the defenders can now hide behind concrete buildings and actually return fire. Especially toward the bridges that the attackers must cross, which is why you haven't seen Monrovia fall even tho most government forces are, in their own words, "tired."
Everyone says a relatively small force would be needed to enforce peace: a few thousand troops. Can West Africa handle it alone? They didn't when they came in the 1990s. They ended up taking sides and taking bribes.
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Gaithersburg, Md.: one would say that the delay in the United States sending peace keepers into Liberia is that Liberia is of no importance to them right now. But as soon as the U.S. finds out that Liberia has a reserve of oil that could supply the U.S. for the next century the U.S. will get involve?
Karl Vick: There are rumors that Liberia has oil.
Just rumors, though, as far as I know. And some say planted and encouraged by the Taylor government...not to lure in US troops, one suspects, but rather to lure in someone who would pay the fee for a concession.
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Marshfield, Wis.: It seems to me that Liberia is a chronically chaotic country that, since the end of the Cold War, is of little strategic interest to the United States. I know of no groundswell of public support for sending US troops to such a place, despite the fact that some 200,000 Liberians have died in this most recent civil war.
On the other hand, a few hundred British troops were able to end similar chaos in Sierra Leone a few years ago. Do you believe the United States could quickly end hostilities in Liberia, with such a small expenditure of troops, or are the problems of the country intractable? Is there any reason the believe that LURD or Model offers any better future than Mr. Taylor?
I have difficulty imagining the U.S. working with the Nigerians and, considering the reputation for criminal activity enjoyed by ECOMOG the last time that they were in Monrovia, I doubt that the Liberians are looking forward to their return.
Karl Vick: I can only repeat what Liberians -- or rather Taylor-- says about one US Marine with a whistle. The regard for the US does seem to run deep, but the interviews I did on this pre-dated the latest offensive, which may have generated raw new feelings toward Washington. Witness the angry crowd carrying the dead victims of the mortar strike to lay before the US Embassy. A lot of people may well believe, as Taylor says, that the US has blood on its hands for not moving in before LURD did.
No one says LURD or MODEL would be better than Taylor. "More of the same" is what you hear again and again.
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Arlington, Va.: I understand that private contractors have been supporting UN peacekeepers in Sierra Leone, and previously in the 1990s in Liberia. Any idea how much of a role the private contractors would have in the likely upcoming ECOWAS deployment?
Karl Vick: I believe they'd have a role. There was a group in Liberia in the 90s -- former Pentagon types; I'm forgetting the full name, but it began with Pacific, I think. They were sent to oversee ECOWAS (aka ECOMOG in its military incarantion) and shape it up. I heard they had people in Monrovia last week, at the Royal Hotel, but don't think it was confirmed.
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Los Angeles, Calif.: I am an American and lived in Liberia from 1995 to 2000. The Liberians were very friendly and many hoped to someday have enough money to travel to the U.S. How was the response towards you, especially in light of the U.S. not sending troops or any type of assistance in this crisis?
Karl Vick: Very warm indeed. Not yet angry when I was there, but increasingly plaintive.
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Alexandria, Va.: There seem to be conflicting reports of which groups are actually responsible for breaking the ceasefire (LURD vs. the government soldiers). Any thoughts?
Karl Vick: You can never say. It's always he-said-she-said. Unless you have a cease-fire monitoring apparatus in place like the UN sent to Congo a couple years ago there's no hope of knowing.
I did rather relish LURD's claim that Taylor ordered his boys to carve a path to his ancestral home so he could see his mother buried there. Very African.
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San Diego, Calif.: How far away from the executive mansion are the rebels? I heard they are trying to go around (vs. through the city) to try to encircle Taylor's residence. Thanks.
Karl Vick: Not sure at the moment, but when I left they were a good three miles from the executive mansion. Which as the writer seems to appreciate is not where the president lives but rather the high-rise where he works. It's on Capitol Hill, well back from the bridges where the frontal assault on the city is taking place.
The second front is an effort to do an end-around toward the base of the peninsula on which the city stands. It runs along, ah, Somalia Drive.
Of course LURD has announced it's told its troops to cease fire as of yesterday. And as of yesterday, according to reporters who are still on the ground, they hadn't stopped.
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Alexandria, Va.: Your response about whether a West African force would be effective at peacekeeping surprised me. I would expect this time around to be different considering our military's African Crisis Response Initiative program which has helped to train West African peacekeeping forces (because I expect that would bring more accountability for the the actions of the West African troups.) Would you explain further your concerns with a West African led force?
Karl Vick: You make a good point. I had meant to mention that as a qualifier. US training should help a lot, as would the example of US troops if they ended up being dispatched. Professionalism has great appeal, if it's appealed to.
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Gaithersburg, Md.: I spent 10 years in the Liberian war (from start to elections) what I have gathered during that time when it comes to U.S. involvement, the U.S. always get cold feet.
But as soon as the West African countries start making effort and succeding than the U.S. comes in to take the glory. This is the last chance that the U.S. has to prove that she is a friend to Liberia. Failure to intervene will leave Liberians with negative feelings towards U.S.
Karl Vick: Thanks for that.
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Maryland: My understanding from a gentleman from Liberia that I recently met was that there are indeed have natural gas reserves, as well as rich mineral supplies. I also understand that the feeling is that the folks that are there are getting a bit PO'd with the U.S. -- they see that they will move into one country to "render assistance" IF there are resources that can be exploited.
Karl Vick: I can't speak to the mineral wealth, potential or otherwise, except that every poor country seems to think it's got some untapped mineral potential that Greater Powers covet. In some cases it's there -- witness Congo -- but lots of times it takes a ton of investment and infrastructure to properly extract -- witness Congo's copper; Congo's col-tan; Congo's gold. So...I dunno.
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Washington, D.C.: Hello Karl,
Is there any kind of order? Whats the atmosphere like? Hostile? People walking the streets with guns? Looting?
Who is in order there, honestly?
Why can't the people of Liberia handle this themselves?
Karl Vick: Almost no kind of order. It wasn't quite as bad as Mogadishu when I left, but people who'd been there a while said it seemed to be headed that way.
There's people with guns, and lots of them seem to be high. There's looting, especially at night; and a huge amount of rape. Both go with home invasions.
The checkpoints right by the hotel were relatively well-run, but only because the hotel owners pay handsomely to make sure that's the case. Elsewhere, it's pot luck.
On Saturday, as the rebels neared the city, a bunch of us went toward the front lines. We stopped to talk to some fighters about why they weren't going forward (We're tired, they said. We want peace). I was wearing a flak vest and one of the kids with guns put his finger under the neck.
"I want this," he said, smiling. It wasn't quite a hold-up, but it opened a difficult subject. I kept it light and friendly but suddenly a kid with a badly burned face (old scars, made for a mask effect) announced that he wanted to see if it would really stop a bullet. And he backs up, starts to bring his Kalashnikov up. Much laughter from the assembled throng, who almost let him do it. I haven't been that scared in a while.
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Bronx, N.Y.: Most of my father's side of the family is still in Liberia. I see the peacekeeping troops and the U.S.' decision to monitor the situation as a delay tactic. People are dying by the minute and they are monitoring. Monitoring WHAT? Taylor needs to be escorted out because he can not be trusted to leave when he said he would. The fighting won't stop because the rebels are determined to get him out. So we go around in circles and wait and monitor as people die? Makes no damn sense. I am sure if Liberia had oil the U.S. would've been involved already. Taylor is just as bad as Sadaam and Osama. What about regime change in Liberia? We were there for the US when they needed our land during the cold war. Where are they now? How many more bodies must be piled before the U.S. embassy before Bush sends troops to help?
Karl Vick: These are the questions you hear in Monrovia, too, albeit in Liberian English.
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Fairfax, Va.:
There is little discussion at the moment regarding Charles Taylor facing the war crimes tribunal. He alone is responsible for four wars in the region -- Liberia, Sierra Leone, Ivory Coast and unrest in Guinea. As someone from Sa Leone, I would like to see him answer for what he did. Two questions:
Has the issue been dropped and is he expected to go into comfortable exile in Nigeria?
Are representative of the RUF (Sa Leone rebel army) still visible in Monrovia under the protection of the Taylor regime?
Karl Vick: Clearly the U.S. is profoundly uncomfortable with the notion of enforcing the war crimes indictment. I assume this is part of why the White House is insisting that he be gone by the time Americans get there (tho US officials say their reluctance is based in not wanting to "legitimize" Taylor by treating the world to the sight of him welcoming US forces).
Washington, and esp. the Pentagon, you'll recall do not like the International Criminal Court, and there seem to be concerns that snapping up an elected leader in his own country may somehow, ah, muddy the waters on the larger questions of international justice.
I don't know enough about the RUF or Monrovia to know if they're around. Of course some of the more senior RUF people -- especially Sam Bockerie, the famous Mosquito-- have turned up dead recently. In Liberia. The suspicion voiced is that Taylor is rubbing out the people who could testify against him at the UN Court in Freetown. Sam himself had been indicted, I believe.
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Long Beach, Calif.: How much money does Liberia get for registering freighters? Is the money frozen at the moment? Is there a state bank? Does Liberia have it's own currency? Has it collapsed?
Karl Vick: I don't know the answer to the registry question, but Taylor's man in charge of it is among the fiercest critics of the U.S., very hawkish on this question. He was on the much-fought-over bridge screaming about US and media hypocrisy as the first mortar shells landed behind us in downtown the other day.
There is a state bank. I'm told there isn't much cash in it, owing to some previous sizeable withdrawls. Haven't seen proof of that, though.
The Liberian dollar was firm at about 70 to 1 USD when I left. Don't know what the latest round of fighting has done to it. Money changers work in the street, and it just wasn't safe to go out...
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San Diego, Calif.: Taylor just announced he will resign on July 26, Independence Day. We pray he will keep his word but will he leave the country? This is the big question.
Karl Vick: That is is. And I'll leave you all with it.
Many thanks for all the interest, and as always apologies for the good queries that time did not permit.
I expect I'll be headed back to Monrovia before too long. We all pray for peace.
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