Wesley Cowan and Tukufu Zuberi Professors Tuesday, July 22, 2003; Noon ET
"History Detectives" is a 10-part PBS series that explores the true stories behind historic sites, artifacts and tall tales told in cities across the country. Each week, detectives track down the best in the fields of forensics, historical research, architecture and archaeology, taking old-fashioned sleuthing to a whole new realm. Each segment examines the truth about the historical records of the homes, towns and personal possessions of everyday Americans. Wesley Cowan and Tukufu Zuberi were online Tuesday, July 22 at noon ET, to discuss the series. Cowan is a doctor of anthropology at the University of Michigan and an auctioneer specializing in items relating to American history, furniture, folk and decorative arts, and the material culture of Native Americans. Zuberi is professor of sociology and the director of the Center for Africana Studies at the University of Pennsylvania. He is the author of two books and published in several articles. "History Detectives" airs on PBS Monday July 21, 2003 at 8:00 p.m. ET. (check local listings). The transcript follows. Editor's Note: washingtonpost.com moderators retain editorial control over Live Online discussions and choose the most relevant questions for guests and hosts; guests and hosts can decline to answer questions.
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Wesley Cowan and Tukufu Zuberi: Tukufu: It is great to be here online to talk about the History Detectives. Let's do this!
Wes: Same here, great to be here with Tukufu and everybody in cyberspace who have been watching the show!
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Richmond, Va.: How can I find out who my great grandfather, Wesley Hunt's parents were. He was a slave owned by Thomas Hart Hunt, uncle of John Hunt Morgan, famous Confederate General from Lexington, KY. My g-grandfather was "loaned" to Morgan and was his body servant until he (Wesley) was captured by Union troops and reluctantly joined the Union army in May 1864. I have documentation of my g-grandfather's life from 15 years and beyond, but cannot get a lead on his life before that. PLEASE HELP!
Wesley Cowan and Tukufu Zuberi: The best way to start is to find any document or journal from any of the people that he worked for or was enslaved by. He should also go back to the locations where they lived and look in any old document that might provide any information on the names of people -- tax records, accounting bills or any receipt for payment made to his original owner that was renting him out. It is very difficult as you obviously know to find any written documentation for an African American in the 18th or 19th century. But you can look into the documents by the slave masters and you might also want to contact some genealogical societies (that can be found on the Internet) that serves African Americans to locate their relatives who were enslaved. However this may be a difficult task because of the time period. - Tukufu
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Philadelphia, Pa.: Hi, I love the program. What a fun, great way to learn about history. I'm curious as to how you come up with your stories? And, how long do you spend researching each case? Thanks so much. Can't wait for next weeks show.
Wesley Cowan and Tukufu Zuberi: Great questions! Our stories come from many sources, but lots come from viewers. Since this was our first season (we HOPE there will be more!), we weren't exactly inundated with story ideas. We suspect that this will change dramatically as more folks find out about the series. In fact, I've been swamped with ideas just this week! We're always looking for great ideas that combine history with human interest.
The answer to the second part of your question is simply: It depends. We work with a team of researchers who follow leads and consult with us along the way. Sometimes stories can be tied up very neatly in just a small amount of time. Others, take much longer. Literally weeks are spent on each project "behind the scenes."
Wes
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Louisville, KY: Hey Wes! Hello from a fellow Highlander! I LOVE the show and hope it continues. As you know, the Cherokee Triangle is full of beautiful historic homes. Although I live in an apartment building, I know there was originally a house on the property that burnt down in 1969. (It's the only apartment building on the street.) I know on the show you often discover who owned a specific lot, etc. Is this info available at the local library? I'm curious about the family that lived in the house that used to be there.
Wesley Cowan and Tukufu Zuberi: Hello Louisville! I grew up on Willow Ave. in the Triangle. Great city. The answer to your question lies in the Jefferson County, Courthouse downtown. Property records and records of transfers of ownership can be found her. Follow your nose to the clerk that handles deeds. Guarantee they'll be helpful if you ask!
Wes
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Greenville, NC: Hello Mr. Cowan and Professor Zuberi
My name is Jason and I am an African American Sociology Major who attends East Carolina University in my hometown of Greenville, North Carolina. I was just interested in the many (ha ha) career opportunities for a person such as myself who studies sociology to learn about how human sytems work, but also has an interest in history and wonders how human systems had to have worked in the past.
Also, I sent in some show ideas concerning early contact between people that are generally not believed to have interacted very much. I would like to see on your show an investigation into interactions between groups such as the vikings and the canadian native americans in pre-columbian America; or maroon communities in which slaves, native-americans and sometimes whites lived side by side. I don't have any artifacts pertaining to these things but I am sure someone out there has them.
Wesley Cowan and Tukufu Zuberi: Tukufu: You have a tremendous number of options ahead of you. First of all, I recommend that you pursue graduate studies and with sociology degree, a grad degrees will open more educational opportunities (teaching at higher levels) and towards working at research centers. When I was at your stage of education, I worked as a survey analyst, a research assistant and at a courthouse. There are a lot of things you can do with a B.A. but with more education you can explore more opportunities beyond the basics of teaching at a school or the other things I mentioned. You can work in human resources section, manager or researcher at a marketing research firm, working for law enforcement or as a civil servant. Or who knows, you could be a future 'history detective'?
That is a fantastic idea and story and as soon as you locate an artifact or a person who does or a story to tell, you should send this to the History Detectives on pbs.org.
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Upstate NY: I like your show very much, but sometimes I find it annoying when you don't take the next step. For instance, on the one about the slaves on the whaling ship, you found out that the one guy had run away from Virginia (I believe it was Norfolk) but then you stopped. Why didn't you go to Virginia to find out more about him? Maybe he hadn't really escaped but had been freed? I think some proof that he was an escaped slave would have added to the story. And on the one about U.S. Grant's signature, you do all that work to prove it's his signature, but then when you find one bit of evidence that he wasn't in NJ on July 4, 1876, you jump to the conclusion that the date was added later. But you do nothing to prove that, like, for instance, looking on previous and later pages of the book for dates that would prove that date was out of order.
Wesley Cowan and Tukufu Zuberi: Tukufu here. Agree with you entirely, unfortunately in spite of the fact that we do a tremendous of research, we simply don't have the time to follow every single lead. The original question from Captain Mandly was simply "Did the Morgan serve as a safe haven for fugitive slaves?" We believe we answered this simple question. But there obvousluy could have been more research done!
Wes here. Since I covered the Grant angle I'll answer this question, and Tukufu can handle the Morgan angle.
Good question and has a simple answer. We DID check the other pages of the ledger, all date from later than 1876, and Grant never signed again. Interestingly enough the ledger contained a number of signatures of other famous (and no-so-famous) folks, and some of these may have been "fake." Seems the Firehouse was filled with practical jokers! Unfortunately we can't show EVERYTHING in the limited time period we have!
Hope this clarifies things!
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Falls Church, Va.: Mr. Zuberi, thanks for giving sociologists a good name! You rock! Why didn't Ms. Wright come with you for the Mississippi house? Thanks!
Wesley Cowan and Tukufu Zuberi: Thanks. She was busy filming another story. -- Tukufu
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Takoma Park, Md.: How would one go about trying to get on the show? I live in an old neighborhood right outside of Washington, DC. My neighbor has a great old house that she has been told by more than one person that her house was actually built by a Buffalo Soldier on land that was given to him by Abraham Lincoln! She has not done any sleuthing herself so does not have anything in writing.
Thanks, LOVE THE SHOW!!
Wesley Cowan and Tukufu Zuberi: Submit your story to www.pbs.org/historydetectives.
Thanks!
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Asheville, NC: The church I grew up in was founded in 1837 in the Crystal Springs community north of Rome, GA. My mother was the church clerk several years ago, and we have posession on the old church minutes. Beside two of the founders names is the abbreviation "col." Is this "colored," "colonel," or what? Did black and white people work together on this sort of thing at that time?
Wesley Cowan and Tukufu Zuberi: That's a perfect kind of question to submit to the History Detectives! Great question -- please send this along to us!
http://www.pbs.org/opb/historydetectives/
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Towson, Md.: I'm fascinated with the story of the Robert Smith house in Natchez. Was the house passed on to future generations of Smiths? Do you know how the Bontura family came to own the house?
Wesley Cowan and Tukufu Zuberi: No it wasn't. After Sir Robert Smith's death, his wife sold the house and moved out of the U.S. So it didn't stay in the Smith family. You might want to check out the episode. - Tukufu
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Phoenix, Ariz.: How much independent verification do you do of the information given to you by the experts you consult?
Wesley Cowan and Tukufu Zuberi: Wes: For some items, we visit more than one expert but for somethings there really only is one expert. When we interview the expert, we've already done research behind the scenes and we know that the person that we are talking to is often THE expert on the particular topic. In addition, we often interview more than one expert.
Tukufu: A good example is the Napoleonic sword where we show you one expert and then another and come back to the first and then give the answer. Sometimes it happens on air but most of the time it doesn't.
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New York, New York: Hey Wes and Tukufu!
I love the show!
You seem to be able to be able to find an answer to every question you are asked, but so far has there been a certain question about something that you guys just have not been able to answer?
Wesley Cowan and Tukufu Zuberi: Several of the messages we've gotten from folks are very similar and more or less revolve around "What's the hardest investigation; are there things that we just can't answer?"
Nearly every investigation -- even if we answer the "basic" question -- produces intriguing leads that we simply can't follow. This can be VERY frustrating, because we know that following these leads would produce at least very cool ancillary info. But, given the time constraints we're working under, we simply have to stop, or we'd be in one place forever!
That's the great thing about the show. We're visiting folks all over the country who have great "little" stories about America's past.
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Bronx, NY: Do you each select which stories you think are interesting and which you want to work on, or do you talk about them as a group and select the stories you're going to work on as a group?
Wesley Cowan and Tukufu Zuberi: It's been more of an organic process.
Producers consult with us and do a little fact checking beforehand to see if the story is interesting to work on. The story ideas are submitted primarily to the producers of the show and they make the initial cut before they talk to us.
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Fredericksburg, Va.: I read an interesting story in the Washington Post's Metro Section on Sunday - 'Diner's Famed Green Chowder' about a black man, Matt Buckner, who opened what became a Fredericksburg landmark -- Buckner's Sea Food in 1922 in the segregated south. According to the article, Buckner was celebrated in the society pages and at the same time could only serve white customers. I found the stories - Buckner's Sea Food and Robert Smith's successful carriage business to be similar. Have you found many other stories such as these? Excellent program by the way.
Wesley Cowan and Tukufu Zuberi: I agree that the stories do sound similar and there are many other stories like that story. It was not exceptional to have free African Americans during the period of enslavement who worked in an occupation that only served whites. -- Tukufu
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Warren, MI: Wes, regarding the show on the Washington portrait that ended up being a forgery ... do you believe that there will ever be a market for forgeries or is there already?
Wesley Cowan and Tukufu Zuberi: In fact, there IS a market for forgeries AS forgeries. But the value of the forgeries is, of course, much lower than the originals. More importantly, Historical Societies and Art Museums now recognize the value of retaining forgeries in their collections. After all, they are historical records, AND they hold the key to unlock future "discoveries" of the work of forgers. This is EXACTLY how the Stuart drawing was unmasked!
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Houston, Tex.: Good morning, Wes and Tukufu. I have really enjoyed your show so far. I have a 7 month old, so I'm not always able to watch you live, with bedtime and all, but I am certain to videotape to watch during his naps. Have you ever heard of a bike that had a tree grow up around it? Everytime I see your show I think about that bike that my parents saw on a trip to Vashon Island off the coast of Washington. I know that Berkley Breathed even created a children's book based on the question of how that bike got there.
Wesley Cowan and Tukufu Zuberi: Wow -- what a great story! Submit it to the producers of the show for a future show. www.pbs.org/historydetectives.org
Cool!
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Vienna, Va.: Throughout the series, what were your favorite investigations? Did you ever come across something so unusual that it took you longer than you expected or could not figure out? If so, will there ever an aired segment about investigations that might have failed or are still a mystery?
Wesley Cowan and Tukufu Zuberi: Tukufu: The two most intriguing investigation was the Pop Lloyd baseball field and the Natchez house stories. They were a little unusual to the typical stories that we hear. The most difficult and puzzling was the Dallas railroad story that has not aired yet.
Wes: My personal favorite was last week's on the Gilbert Stuart forgery and it is a perfect example of when we start our investigation and start pulling threads to then unknown ends of the threads. The threads led us to the forger's son who is still living. And his story was almost as interesting as that of the forger himself.
As you watch more and more shows, you'll see that several can't be proved with any great degree of certainty but that's just the way history is.
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Arlington, VA:
Your website, which is very cool btw, describes History Detectives as being 'devoted to solving historical mysteries, searching out the true facts (and falsehoods) behind local folklore, family legends and interesting objects.' I would think this could keep the detectives busy with research for years to come. Will History Detectives be an ongoing series after this season? Are you still actively searching for stories or is this season complete now? Thank you.
Wesley Cowan and Tukufu Zuberi: Great question. We are actively pursuing stories for the show and we hope that it continues to be an ongoing series. You should definitely contact your local PBS station and express your sentiment to them. - Tukufu
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Washington, D.C.: First off, thanks for this great show, I am now a junkie (can we talk to WETA about getting a better time slot for the reruns? I can't keep up this middle of the night viewing!) I especially loved the story of the 'Gilbert Stuart' painting.
and my question: Several years ago, I inherited what has been described to me as an 18th century Florentine Money Chest. Without actually going to Florence, can you suggest a place I might be able to find more information on it? it's been in my family since at least the 1890's and I have never seen it's like. I'd like to look into it myself, rather than hiring an appraiser. thanks.
Wesley Cowan and Tukufu Zuberi: You're in a great place to do a lot of research yourself. Try the library at the National Gallery of Art -- ask the librarian to help. That's a great place to start. Begin by comparing yours with ones that are illustrated in books or perhaps they might even have one on exhibit. Also, check auction catalogs (the National Gallery will have a jillion...check Sotheby's and Christies European, or Continental furniture auctions) this will give you an idea of the value of similar chests. ULTIMATELY, you'll have to have someone who REALLY knows 18th century Italian furniture to inspect it. BUT you can certainly do a lot of footwork!
RE time slots: In most areas of the country the show airs at 8PM on Mondays. Didn't know the show was being aired at other times! I guess just ask your local affiliate to get with the program!
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Perhaps an idea for a future show???: There is a bridge on MacArthur Blvd. that links Cabin John with Glen Echo that is part of the aqueduct system that brings water to DC. I'm 42, and have lived here all of my life. Local legend has it that it was part of the Underground Railroad 150 years ago. Is there any way to verify that claim? More to the point, would it be possible to map the actual safe houses that housed runaway slaves and helped them in their quest for freedom? Was anything ever documented after the war, or was it too dangerous even then?
Wesley Cowan and Tukufu Zuberi: Tukufu: First thing is to start reading William Still's book "Underground Railroad." There are several efforts to document every safehouse and every bridge that was used on the underground railroad. There is in fact a museum being built in Cincinnatti that will open in 2004 at the Freedom Center (National Underground Railroad Museum). So once that musuem is completed, you can contact them to as they consolidate the history of the underground railroad. You should also go to the local library and find any books on the underground railroad in the Washington, D.C. area and you might find some additional information there. Also, check with your local historical society as well.
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Peru, IL: As an historian and genealogist, I think it is wonderful to see a programme that gets people excited about history. I watch it every night with my 15-year old autistic daughter and she gets so excited when you come up with answers and leads. She also loves Antiques Roadshow, by the way!
Wesley Cowan and Tukufu Zuberi: Thanks for this! Hope you and your daughter will continue watching. Believe me, we like it when we come up with leads and breakthroughs too!
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Prairie Village, Kansas: This isn't a question but accolades for a terrific new show! Or maybe it is a question. Surely there will be more than 10 episodes? I've taught U. S. History (used to teach 8th graders...now 11th graders) for 34 years and would love to incorporate watching the show into my curriculum this fall. I've loved every one of the episodes so far even when I thought I might not be interested in the topic of a particular search, I've found myself hooked within a few minutes.
Thanks!
Kathy Taylor
Wesley Cowan and Tukufu Zuberi: That's great and make sure you pass the message onto your local PBS station. You can also check out the 'Classroom Resources' section on the History Detectives web site.
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Tempe, AZ: On the revelation of the Gilbert Stuart forgery, did that really feel as awkward as it looked? The gentleman actually looked a trifle cross at being introduced to the forger's son.
Wesley Cowan and Tukufu Zuberi: No, I don't think so. The owner was really curious about the authenticity of the drawing. Once we'd answered his question, he was pretty satisfied. He was'nt at all miffed. I think as the story unfolded about George (aka the forger's son)he thought it was pretty amazing!
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New York, NY: Compaired to other countries, do you think Americans value their history enough? And what would you say to kids to encourage them to take an active interest in history?
Wesley Cowan and Tukufu Zuberi: Tukufu: My experience is that other parts of the world, especially the industrial parts, people take their histories much more seriously and they know their history much better. I would like to say that if you want to know about the future, you have to know about the past. Because the future is using your past in what you do now with more foresight than acting without knowing your history. History is alive and something we do on an everyday basis. That's what children and we all need to know.
Wes: We're all the result of the cumulative historical past -- economy, societies, etc. have all interacted to define where we are in 21st century America.
What we are seeing is that Americans don't know their 'History' very well such as the historical events of the country but they are interested in 'history' that relates directly to them.
I think the success of the show is that there are thousands of stories similar to the ones that we are investigating in the series. Cumulatively you wrap all these stories together and what you end up with is the historical fabric (History with a big H) of America. Several of the responses have come from history teachers who like the show because we show American History with history with the small "h." So maybe we need to tell smaller histories in teaching the bigger history.
I do think that we as Americans are very interested in history but it's more about history that relates directly to them.
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Montreal, Quebec, Canada:
It was very pleasant to see your picture, Wesley Cowan, on the site and I wonder if you are a descendant of the Irish or the Scottish Cowans? It seems that your occupation as a 'sharer of ideas' is in keeping with the other Cowan family members I have researched. I've sent along this site to another of our family, the now elderly son of Eva May Cowan who lives in Tampa Bay Florida and who has written about the Cowans of Cowansville. (Quebec and Ottawa).
In terms of history, there was a young man, Constable David Latimer Cowan, born in July of 1863 in Leitram, Carleton, Ontario, Canada who joined the the North West Mounted Police and who served at Fort Pitt, Sask. under the supervision of Francis Dickens (son of the English novelist, Charles Dickens) when the Louis Riel Rebellion broke out in 1885. There is a very touching and special story about this young man to whom the "Northwest Rebellion of 1885 Medal" was posthumously awarded. If you are interested, I'd be delighted to send it along to you.
Is your program aired on television or radio or uniquely on this website?
Thank you and every best wish,
Eleanor
Wesley Cowan and Tukufu Zuberi: Curiously enough, this has been one of the most common questions I've gotten since the show began airing: "Are you one of my Cowan relatives?" In every case I've answered "No." In your case, the answer is "I don't know." My Cowan relatives did come from Canada, and I think Ontario. I don't know a thing about them though!
In answer to your last question: Show airs Monday nights at 8PM on PBS. You might catch it on a New York station that airs in Montreal!
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Outer Banks, North Carolina:
Hi Wes and Tukufu,
It's good to see a great show that combines all of the great fun of being a detective and history. I'm impressed with your willingness to go out into communities and use oral history in research. It lets others out there know that there is more to being a researcher than dust, dark libraries. In my past life I was involved in archaeology (thanks to Wes!) and I loved being a detective the most. You guys have found a great way to bring the hidden side of research to the public. Keep it up and hopefully others will follow.
Maggie Tyler
Wesley Cowan and Tukufu Zuberi: Tukufu: The History Detectives have been a lot of fun to make and I hope that it has been as much fun to watch. If this is true, tell a friend and tell your local PBS station and tune in next Monday. Thank you.
Wes: Like Tukufu, I have found this show to be a lot of hard work but enjoyable and felt very priviledged and go to the places that I've been and meet the folks that I have met. I think it is a great responsibility that we have and a great honor to work on the investigations.
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washingtonpost.com: That wraps up today's show. Join the History Detectives Wes Cowan and Gwen Wright for next week's discussion on the investigations of John Brown's letter, a Japanese sword and poems.
Thanks to everyone who joined the discussion.
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