With Jeb Stuart Magruder Former Nixon Campaign Staff Member Monday, July 28, 2003; 11:00 a.m. ET
Thirty years after the Senate select committee hearings on Watergate riveted the nation and doomed the Nixon presidency, a key figure in the scandal says he has a fresh and explosive revelation: Richard M. Nixon personally ordered the burglary of Democratic headquarters at the Watergate complex. Jeb Stuart Magruder then deputy director of Nixon's campaign, says in a new documentary for PBS that he heard Nixon's voice on a telephone as the president instructed then-Attorney General John N. Mitchell to go ahead with the break-in. Magruder was online Monday, July 28 at 11 a.m. ET to discuss the latest revelations about Watergate and the new PBS documentary, "Watergate Plus 30: Shadow of History." Magruder was charged with perjury and conspiracy to obstruct justice for his role in the Watergate cover-up. He spent seven months in prison. He had previously served as an aide to Nixon's chief of staff H.R. Haldeman and deputy communications director at the White House. After his release from prison in 1976, Magruder earned a Master's degree in Divinity from the Princeton Theological Seminary. He was executive minister at First Community Church in Marble Cliff, Ohio, from 1984-1990. President Ronald Reagan denied Magruder a pardon in 1983. In December 1995, however, Kentucky governor Brereton Jones restored Magruder's right to vote and run for office. Magruder had worked with the governor's wife, Libby Jones, in the Habitat for Humanity project. The transcript follows. Editor's Note: washingtonpost.com moderators retain editorial control over Live Online discussions and choose the most relevant questions for guests and hosts; guests and hosts can decline to answer questions.
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Washington, D.C.: Why did you wait 30 years to confirm Nixon's direct involvement?
Jeb Stuart Magruder: It was not purposeful. I would have indicated that earlier on if I had been asked directly by the prosecutors or the Senate Watergate Committee. That never happened. Particularly related to the Senate situation because what happened there is I testified just before John Dean and I had no idea that Dean was going to testify about his conversations with Nixon. I had no idea about those. Secondly, I was still during that period of time a Nixon loyalist. I felt he'd done a good job as president. I'd worked for him 4+ years and I was unwilling at that time probably to say something that I had heard but would have a difficult time testifying directly about because he was talking to Mitchell and Mitchell then gave me the orders to pay Liddy. Thirdly, there was a personal reason, which was that we all thought that we would be pardoned by Nixon. And of course in my head -- well we didn't get a pardon from Nixon, Ford, Reagan and so on.
So I ended up as a Presbyterian Minister and as a minister I just was not going to get into the negative sides of Watergate. I talk about Watergate, but in context, in terms of the ethical issues -- because when I went to Princeton, I understood after studying how things happened from the theological viewpoint. That was my new career and I loved it and it never came up either and it was kind of a fading memory.
I retired from the ministry basically and moved back to Columbus and had more free time, then this PBS thing came up and they happened to ask some of the right questions which got me thinking about what had happened and so I answered their questions truthfully.
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East Windsor, N.J.: Who else was in the room at the time that Nixon uttered that statement?
Jeb Stuart Magruder: Mitchell and I were out on the patio of a house that he was staying at in Key Biscayne, Fla. So it was just he and I. Fred Laroux was there but he wasn't on the patio when we went over the Liddy plan and I called Haldemann at Mitchell's request.
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Lyme, Conn.: I recall years ago reading many of the autobiographies of people associated with Watergate. In general, it seemed most blamed the person above him for the Watergate incident. Finally, John Haldemann's book essentially said: Nixon was at fault. You now, from a few layers down the chain of command, claim to have been aware that Nixon was indeed behind Watergate. When did you finally admit this, and what was the delay in making this admission?
Jeb Stuart Magruder: I think the only additional thing might be that I knew that Haldemann -- well Mitchell never told the truth. Haldemann finally did before passing away about Nixon's involvement and that also changed my own feelings because I had worked for Haldemann and when the president blamed Haldemann and Erlichman for his problems I think that changed their feelings about what had happened. In a sense, Nixon deserted all of us. ALso, when I heard the tapes that had an effect on me. I had never realized the kind of negative attitude he had on the tapes. Also, he had already suggested breaking in the Brookings Institution.
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Madison, Wis.: If you knew Nixon ordered the break-in, why didn't you come forward and reveal that 30 years ago? And for that matter, why didn't you or Haldeman, or Dean or any of the others who were involved blow the whistle on Nixon and tell the Watergate Committee, the media, or anyone else who would listen, Nixon's involvement? I don't understand why you all took the rap and did prison time for this while you watched Nixon walk away virtually unscathed (other then being forced to resign the presidency, of course).
Thank you for taking my questions.
Jeb Stuart Magruder: As I said, I think we were guilty, number one, I mean I was guilty of conspiracy to obstruct and so on, so I felt that my guilt did not, in a sense, was separate from the issue of the president and secondly, at the time we thought the president would protect us. Now after all was said and done he didn't. But we didn't know that at the time. So in hindsight, if I'd known about the tapes and what Dean was going to say and the depth of what had gone on in the White House, which was so pervasive and so willing to let us all go...
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Brandermill, Va.: I read where you hadn't revealed this information before because you'd never been asked. OK, what other juicy revelations are you sitting on because you haven't been asked the right question?
Jeb Stuart Magruder: Well, of course the other juicy revelation is who is Deep Throat and because I've had more time to contemplate things since last December and I have some ideas in that area and have written some things that may get published about that issue.
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Goldsboro, N.C.: If you could offer any advice to members of our current administration on dealing with a potential scandal (either percieved or real) what would it be?
Jeb Stuart Magruder: Unfortunately perception many times is more important than reality and I think there have been times when there is a perception that the administration is not being forthcoming with the American public. Whether they are or not, I don't know. But there is the perception and that's unfortunate. And if it's real then it is even more unfortunate.
One of the things that is very hard for people in places like the White House -- and WorldCom, Enron -- is that they get removed from reality because their life isn't real. When you get picked up by limos, go to state dinners -- you begin to think that's the way life is supposed to be. When in reality you're back in the real world after its over and the problem with power, lord Atkins said it "Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely." The White House or a minister in a large denomination, and some of the church fights I've seen are as bad as anything I've seen. So it's not unique to politics or the government.
In our case, one of the problems was that people like Haldemann and Erlichman were moral men individually. But when it came to public morality they had almost no understanding of that kind of morality. One theologan wrote "Moral Men, Immoral Society" who said that the problems with the upper and middle class was the same issue -- they might have had some understanding of personal morality, but in the case of Germany for instance, when it came to power or recouping power, their anxiety and sense of wanting to become an important nation again allowed the whole German church to buy into the extermination of 7 million Jewish people.
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Washington, D.C.: According to the July 27 2003 AP story, "Magruder insisted in the AP interview that he was not asked previously whether Nixon personally authorized the break-in. Referring to the Senate Watergate hearings, he said, "If you look at the testimony, you won't find anything."
Yet in your opening statement to the Senate Committee on June 14, 1973 you stated:
"Unfortunately we made some mistakes in the campaign which have led to a major national concern... As far as I know at no point during this entire period from the time of planning of the Watergate to the time of trying to keep it from the public view did the President have any knowledge of our errors in this matter."
And later that same day you had this exchange with Senator Talmadge:
"What you are saying, as I understand it, is that [Nixon's] staff was so completely remote, kept him so isolated, that this could have transpired without his knowledge, approval and consent. Is that your testimony?
Magruder: "Yes, sir. I can understand that very well."
And yet you say now that your testimony then was truthful?
Jeb Stuart Magruder: Yes, I think my testimony was truthful, because in the context of both testifying before prosecutors and the grand jury in the criminal case and as well as before the Senate committee, the issue of my having the direct phone call -- he wasn't talking to me. And the reasons I gave before were the reasons why I decided not to bring that up in a direct context.
At no point in the testimony was I ever asked anything that would've gotten to that question. As I said before I was also looking out for my pardon. And when I took a lie detector test, as I did with the FBI, I passed.
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Rochester, N.Y.: You are a minister, not a shrink, but do you have any insight into what made Nixon so angry and defensive? He had reached his goal of the presidency, and would have won re-election without resort to dishonest tactics. His abuses seemed to me a reflection of a weak and frightened man, as opposed to the kind of abuse that grows from people who grow so strong that they imagine themselves above the law (the way, for instance, that a typical congressional big like Jim Wright or Dan Rosentkowski gets in trouble.)
Jeb Stuart Magruder: I think it was a historic pattern in his political career. He started in 1946 running for Congress against Jerry Vorhees and wouldn't have had a chance of winning until he hooked on to the Communist issue -- and that turned the tide. In 1950 he's running against an incumbent for the Senate and does the same thing and wins again. Then he joins forces with Joseph McCarthy. Not being a psychiatrist, I think Nixon found that the way to win was not just to beat your opponent in an election, but to literally destroy them. That became obvious to me when I was in the White House and you saw that shadow side.
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Alexandria, Va.: Do you have children? How do you explain to them your personal Watergate history?
Jeb Stuart Magruder: I have four children, they're all grown and married and I did all of their weddings and I have eight grandchildren. We tried very hard to explain Watergate to them. Fortunately they were in schools that really protected them during the time. My two sons were at St. Albans and daughter at National Cathedral and my youngest was too young for school then.
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Washington, D.C.: How certain are you that it was President Nixon's voice and not that of another White House official?
Jeb Stuart Magruder: Well, like Saddam Hussein who I guess has six or seven doubles, Richard Nixon did not and he had a very distinct voice and could not be duplicated.
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College Park, Md.: Coming forth with this new information is interesting, but the most interesting part of Watergate to me (and the part with the most usefulness for the present and future) is that the White House thought they could get away with it, and almost did. Without a Deep Throat to feed the press details, Nixon would have walked away completely free.
Can you talk a little about the thought process behind the break-in? Specifically, what made them think they would get away with it, what steps were taken behind the scenes to cover it up, and how these lessons could be applied to current and future episodes of presidential lying?
Jeb Stuart Magruder: The person who really broke the case was judge Surika. He indicated to the original defendents -- Liddy, Hunt, etc. -- that they would face long prison terms. So, McCourt wrote a letter to the judge saying wait a minute, it's not just us, there are others involved at a higher level. He then testified to Sam Dash naming Dean and I. Up until then, nobody had really figured out that the cover story that I developed about giving Liddy $250K was innacurate. So that's how the case was broken, when Dean and I realized we had to cooperate we knew we were going to be tossed off the ship.
In political campaigns -- have not been ever void of a certain amount of intelligence gathering. I've been in a lot of campaigns and have seen this on both sides of the fence. In fact, a trickster for the Democrats -- when Nixon was campaigning in '68 in Ohio, he addressed the crowd from a train and the Dems uncabled the caboose from the main part of the train and the train left without Nixon. It's funny, but still also unethical and illegal.
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Arlington, Va.: You've emerged from Watergate as a relatively good guy. Don't you think the public would have thought better of you if you had revealed the Nixon thing sooner?
Jeb Stuart Magruder: I think the last 20 some years have been great and I did what I had to do in the context of changing professions and there was a certain repentive quality to that. I can't control how people might feel here or there depending on where they are. It might have made some difference, I'm not sure.
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Silver Spring, MD: I would like to have your thoughts on whether or not Nixon had any redeeming traits. We all know the negative things. But I still haven't gotten over the sight of Bob Dole sobbing at Nixon's funeral, something that astonished me. What was he sobbing about? What can you say that is positive about the man?
Jeb Stuart Magruder: Oh ya, I think he was brilliant, strategic thinker. He had particular insight in foreign policy. He had a breakthrough with China, Russia. Domestically, he got rid of the draft which has benefited this country and attempted to get welfare reform. So he contributed in many ways. Unfortunately this shadow side is what has predominated in history.
I actually saw Nixon once in 1987 when I was a pastor in Ohio. Woody Hayes died -- Nixon loved football coaches and Mrs. Hayes asked me to invite him to the funeral to say a few words. He came out and did a great job and we had a pleasant time together although nothing ever came up about the past.
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Becky, Keene, NH: If the conversation you recall taking place can't be found in any of the voluminous White House tapes of the scandal, how do you expect your story to be verified? Why would people believe it?
Jeb Stuart Magruder: Number one, we know about the 18 minute caps. The taping system was only in the Oval Office. Where Nixon was when he talked to Mitchell, I have no idea -- he could have been at Camp David, Air Force One, anywhere. And to try to make that case based on tapes is not accurate. And secondly for things of this kind I think he was very wary because he was aware of the taping system. So to think that would be the only way -- in fact, John Dean said yesterday that there was a 15 minute taped conversation where I told Haldemann that the president had authorized the break-in.
I have it here. One of the lawyers we had who was trying to help up had been in March 1973 -- I said "The plan to break into Watergate had been approved by the president." So there is a shred of evidence according to Dean. He's spent more time on this than anyone because of the suit against Liddy.
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Memphis, TN:
What do you think of people like G. Gordon Liddy
and Oliver North who unapologetically make
careers out of their notoriety in presidential
scandals?
Jeb Stuart Magruder: I won't comment on North. But on Liddy. I said at one point when somebody said to me -- I think I said to the person "Liddy is an Adolf Hitler" and the response was "At least he's ours." I fired him twice. The only thing they asked me to keep him on was the Watergate situation. He's the kind of person who never should have been in any position to do what he did, but we let him, so that's our fault.
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Vienna, VA: Do you plan to write another book updating your involvement in what has come to be called Watergate, which includes not only the monitoring but subsequent events as well?
Jeb Stuart Magruder: I really haven't decided what to do about writing again. It would be time consuming although it could happen.
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Greenbelt, Maryland: You indicated that one reason you didn't come forward with the Nixon revelation was that you hadn't been asked.
Has anyone asked you if you were Deep Throat?
Were you Deep Throat?
Jeb Stuart Magruder: Early on, Coulson accused me. No, I am not.
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Jeb Stuart Magruder: The PBS documentary will be on Wednesday at 8 p.m. It's a very well done documentary. And I enjoyed answering your questions.
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