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Life at Work Live
Hosted by Amy Joyce
Washington Post columnist
Tuesday, May 27, 2003; 11 a.m. ET

Do you experience the many joys and frustrations of working life that many of us do? Talk to Washington Post columnist Amy Joyce and her experts about how to deal with them.

Amy hosts weekly online talks for working folks who want to talk about interpersonal issues in the workplace.

The trasncript follows below.

Editor's Note: Washingtonpost.com moderators retain editorial control over Live Online discussions and choose the most relevant questions for guests and hosts; guests and hosts can decline to answer questions.

Amy Joyce: Good morning, all. We're back from a long weekend. I hope you all had a good one. There are a few questions and comments here that continue some threads from last week, so we can talk about that, or start some new issues. As always, join in with your own advice and stories. Here we go...

My boss rocks!: So I mention I'm a little stressed about my upcoming LSATs (planning to go to school and work, and boss knows it). He tells me that I should bring in my study material, do only totally critical tasks, and study (and get paid)- and make up the work time later. Of course, I work long hours and give him my best, but now there is no way I'll jump ship anytime soon

Amy Joyce: That's excellent. Not all bosses would do this, especially to go as far as he did by actually telling you to cut back on work. But hey, it works. Look at how loyal you now feel...

Virginia: I have a question about the novel I am working on during my working day. Should I make the protagonist write to Amy Joyce every week and then include the ensuing dialogue in the pages of the novel? Or, should I write to Amy Joyce every week and then take the gleanings from the dialogue and insert them randomly, as if they are spoken by the "co-workers" in the novel?

All kidding aside, what if you are a really good worker and have time in your day to be creative? Shouldn't work be about creativity, expression, changing the way the world works? Or, should we all live humdrum working lives and evaluate our successes in the realm of co-worker comments, managerial evaluations, and salaries? A boring dollar is not a dollar made, it is the emotions spent.

Amy Joyce: Very funny. Let me know if you go that route, and I can give you all sorts of novel-esque stories. (You should see some of the questions I *can't* post...)

Anyway, I can't say there are definitive answers to your question. In these cases, as in most of them, you have to judge for yourself, based on your company's culture, your work habits, your relationship with your boss, whether you should spend your day novel writing. Are you sure you have time at work to do non-work related things? Remember that you're being paid for your time there. If you morally feel secure in your decision, then make that decision, and change as necessary.
Yes, work should be about creativity etc., but shouldn't it be about that particular work? I would err on the side of no, life should not be about evaluations, how your co-workers judge you, or if your boss says you did a good job today. But this is work. You're getting paid to be there and do what you need to do.
We all do some non-work related things during our day. And we do work related things during our off time. It's just the way it is. Make your decisions, but don't look to me as someone to give you the excuse you're looking for...

Re: Bosses: Amy-
I just wanted to let you know that I felt your boss article was right on target. Communication and feedback are two very important, by often overlooked, aspects of the work world. Now if only I could print the article out and slip it under my boss's door!

Amy Joyce: You have my okay to do so! Of course, I would also tell you to take this opportunity to ask your boss out for coffee some day to discuss what he/she expects from you, and what you want out of your experience. Listen, and tell. Then see what happens.

Rockville, Md: I need some assistance. I have a co-worker I sit next to that really piles on the NASTY cologne. I hate it so much. You can smell it from 3 rows away...for hours! I've asked my supervisor to say something, but he's a total wuss and CLAIMS he's never smelled it (well, you can't smell something if you never leave your office). So, I want to say something, nicely...Please help. I can't take this, it really makes me nauseous...THANKS!

Amy Joyce: You should have said something to your co-worker before you spoke with your boss. It's called communication, and the more we have at work, the better it will be... just like with all relationships.
Talk to your co-worker. "Hey, this might seem kind of personal, but I have problems breathing [or whatever] when you wear so much cologne. Is there any way you can tone it down?"
Then be nice, act normal, and get on with your day. Most people would react well to that and think twice before bathing in cologne.

Derwood, Md: It is intern/co-op season. Any advice on how to supervise a new intern/co-op?

This morning, I was assigned an intern. Unfortunately, I wasn't trained in how to supervise her, nor was I given any advance warning that I'd have to give her work to do! The only experience I have to go on are all the memories of all the bad supervisors I had when I was a co-op student, 15 years ago.

Help! I don't want to ruin her summer....

Amy Joyce: Isn't that the big problem? We're never trained when asked to supervise someone. Then everyone starts hating their boss.
First, you're better off than most in recognizing you don't want to ruin her, and you know you don't know how to manage someone.
Think about all your good managers (do you have any?) and figure out what makes them good. Try to emulate that. You can do the same for all the bad managers you had. Don't do those things that made them so awful.
Then, I'd suggest you get in touch with someone in charge of the intern program, or the person who told you you would be managing someone. Explain why you need some sort of training, and suggest it.
Also, take this intern out to lunch. Ask what she wants out of her experience, and encourage her to talk to you throughout the process. That will help both of you.
Anyone else with good advice?

Arlington, Va: Latest in a string of "bad boss" behavior.

A week ago Friday evening, I see my boss and tell her I am at a cross-roads with my job, and would like to meet with her Monday to talk over priorities, taks, etc. She agrees, sets time for afternoon.

On Monday, see my boss in hall, say "hi," get on with life. I prepare in am for pm meeting, and send my boss an e-mail confirming afternoon time. Get Auto reply saying boss is gone and will be out of the office for 2.5 weeks. Race down the hall, and find she left the building soon after coming in. Everyone else new of this planned vacation.

My beef? Boss knew we should talk, saw me in the am, and left, without letting me know! Upshot, I am rudderless for time she is gone. Mind, I am a self starter, it is just my boss has a micro-managing bug, too, so whatever I do won't be correct.

sigh.

Amy Joyce: Sigh is right. Just make sure when she gets back that you pin her down, and go ahead and ask her why she didn't tell you she was on vacation. Call her on it. Let her know you were disappointed, and she needs to be a bit more mindful of her employees.

East Coast: I'm in grad school part time for my MBA, due to finish sometime in 2004. The grad school has a trip to an exotic locale over New Years this year - studying their economy. I look at it as a once in a lifetime type opportunity, and a way to escape the winter here.

I asked the Boss a few weeks ago about taking the time. Year end is a very hectic time for my job, but with adequate preparation, I can probably avoid most of the chaos. At least I went to my Boss with that idea. The Boss said no, that if I got ahead that much, then there is "another problem".

One of the reasons I'm in grad school is for a career change. I've financed grad school and am receiving no aid from my job - its a non-profit and the aid they provide would be enough to pay for my gas to and from class, not much else. When I finish, I'm going to need to find a job which will be able to pay for both my undergrad loans and my grad school loans. I am in a depressed area, and I can't believe getting a job after school will be easy here. I have given serious thought to relocating to NY to improve my already bad odds in this economy.

But, I am also considering quitting my job just before the trip, going on the trip, and having something else waiting for me when I come home, in my current field until I graduate 6 mos later.

Is the trip and related job search something I should be considering seriously, or will I end up shooting myself in the foot?

Amy Joyce: Yes, I'd say the trip is something important to consider. It sounds like a good opportunity, and one that you will likely regret not taking.
Work hard now to get something together that will be waiting for you when you graduate. Weigh your options, talk to your advisor at school, as well as a few professors. See what sort of advice they have for you, knowing your situation a bit more than I do.
Then when you are sure of your decision, and if your decision is to go on the trip, go to your boss again, explain how important this will be for you, and you might have to go either way. Give your boss several options.
My feeling is you can find another job, contract work, freelance work, for several months until you graduate. You can use that time to job search and weigh your options, like moving to an area with a richer job base.
Good luck in your decision. It's not an easy one, but you may look back on this, wondering why you ever thought you couldn't go away and get that experience abroad.

Washington, DC: I've been trying for a month to find a great interview suit. I want something sleek and professional, navy or black, but it's not been easy to find! Yesterday, a salesperson told me that "most styles are casual now" because of the season. I don't want to walk into a interview in a side-slit skirt or ruffled jacket. Just something classic and classy. Any advice?

Amy Joyce: There are absolutely things out there that are classic. I hate to name stores here, but check the suits at J.Crew and department stores. Things are more casual, but that doesn't mean professional suits have disappeared.

To CologneVille: Funny, I just had the suggested conversation with a co-worker, after suffering for five months, not wanting to offend her. She apologized for not being aware and promised to back off with the stuff. Time will tell, but the conversation was very encouraging. I feel really stupid for not bringing it up months ago.

Amy Joyce: Thanks for posting that. I feel that any time we get the courage up to actually talk to someone, we all realize it was silly to *not* talk earlier.

Advice for interns: Don't just give them filing and looking up bad email addresses and fax numbers. That happens around my association a lot and it's truly not fair to the intern. Sure, some of their time can be spent on these mundane things, but give them a couple of nice projects to work on as well.

Amy Joyce: That's good advice, thanks.

Silver Spring, Md: I’m a marketing manager that’s having a very difficult time dealing with the director of another department that I’m very dependant on. This person has the ear of upper-management and repeatedly blames my direct supervisor and myself for mistakes that she has made. This director is very unprofessional and continuously makes inaccurate statements about my work habits, despite the fact that her staff rarely evens bothers to come into the office. In addition, she has been spreading rumors that our branch office will soon be closed. I’ve tried to deal with this tactfully, but our marketing head (who works in our New England office) never seems to support me and just doesn’t see the light. Now I’ve learned that this person will soon be promoted and in charge of this location. I’m trying unsuccessfully to find another job (I’ve only been here for a 8 months), but how can I deal with this to prevent me from loosing my sanity in the meantime. My position is very fast-paced, with near impossible deadlines that require me to put in daily overtime. I just can’t deal with the added stress that this other person is creating to make herself look good.

Amy Joyce: Awful situation. Document everything that is going on. CC your boss or higher ups in e-mails or documents this person will also be involved in, so you can be sure your credit isn't stolen, or so you can be sure she will not blame you for things that she did.
Keep all e-mails and other hard copies of things you work on with her, and write down date and times of conversations and details, so you can go to to HR later if there is an opportunity to do so.
It doesn't sound like it's possible, but try as much as you can to work around her.
And yes, keep job searching. Get out, network, email all your former colleagues and friends and family for contacts. Don't go into too much detail about this person, or they may think you're just a bitter person who will become bitter at their place of work as well. Continue to do your good work, and remind yourself there is a way out.

Re: Intern Supervision: Companies should develop a "Supervision 101" type of course/training session. Just because you have a title higher up in the ranks or have been somewhere for a few years or are good at the work you do DOES NOT mean that you know to effectively supervise.

Amy Joyce: True true

Former Intern: As someone who's had good and bad bosses while interning, here's my 2 cents:

Please do:

Assign projects that require responsibility and creativity. Interns are there to learn how to work, not how to make copies.

Explain how to use the office equipment. Just because someone is a college student doesn't mean they know how to use the quirky fax machine, and it can lead to a lot of frustration when one can't carry out simple tasks.

Give positive and negative feedback. Fixing things yourself doesn't help anyone improve anything.

Check to make sure the intern has enough to do! Nothing is worse than sitting around feeling useless.

Make sure your intern knows you think he or she is valuable.

Promise to provide a reference!

Kindly enforce proper office ettiquette. You'll help them in the long run.

Make sure they're in the know for meetings, etc...

Be a intermediary between the intern and upper management. Talking to the Big Boss can be scary for an intern.

Introduce the intern to everyone and explain what people around the office do.

Please don't:

Ask the intern to do anything you wouldn't be willing to do yourself.

Ask the intern what they're doing when you haven't given them a project. Forcing them to come up with their own assignments at an unfamiliar company isn't fair.

Sorry that's long, but I hope it helps!

Amy Joyce: Many good points here. Though promise a reference only if you thinkt his person did a good job, and go ahead and mention that part of it. Again, communication is a big one. Interns don't need handholding, but this is all new to them. And internships and first jobs can be a little discouraging (shameless plug for my book "I Went to College for This?"). It's good to remind them why they are doign some of the things they are doing. I second and third the point to introducing them around. It will help you and help them if they feel comfortable in the office, and comfortable enough to ask people questions.

Re: Rockville, Md: I do not wear to much cologne, i'm just trying to cover up the smell of not bathing.

Ha - kidding. My advice for a lot of these types of questions is in line with Amy's. TALK - TALK - TALK
There is no reason it needs to be a fight, argument or battle. Just sit down with your neighbor (if you can get that close) and tell him that the smell bothers your allergies and if possible could he tone it down.
"I don't know if you realize, but your cologne bothers my allergies so is there any way you could just wear a little less, I'd really appreciate it".

Don't give them anywhere to go, and don't be accusatory.

Amy Joyce: Thanks, good points.

Suits: Best places I've found for the classic but boring and affordbale good quality wool suits in black, navy, and charcol:

Off Fifth at Arundel and Potomac Mills
Talbots (I hate shopping where my mom does, but oh well)
JC Penny and SEARS belive it or not - just make sure its wool or someother good quality fabric

A nice silk blouse with collar completes the look - the worthington brand at JC Penny is cheap and looks good.

Oh, and get an affordable suit but dont skimp on the tailoring / alterations. THAT fit is what makes it look sleek and chic

Amy Joyce: Thanks...

Clifton, Va: For a suit try Blommingdales at Tyson's and Nordstrom's at Tyson's. They have the best selection because of the market their. Lots of requests for asuits like the reader is looking for.

Amy Joyce: And thanks...

Alexandria, Va: Amy,

A shaggy dog story on office life and creativity:

A new CEO is hired by a small firm and the first thing he wants to do is see the office and meet some of the people working there.

Of course, word leaks out that he is coming and as he walks through the office with one of the VP's, everyone is busily scurrying around and looking completely occupied. As he walks past an office, he sees one guy staring out the window with his feet up on his desk.

When the tour is complete, he says to the VP that everything seemed fine but he asks what the name of the guy staring out the window. After the VP tells him, the CEO says "I want you to fire him". "But" says the VP " Joe is the guy that has come up with the idea for our three best selling items.

"Then wash that guy's window" demands the CEO.

Amy Joyce: Very cute. Thanks.

Suburban Sprawl, Va: Hi, Amy. I wrote in a few weeks back, first to ask for luck on a job interview and then to relate that I had bolstered my salary up and was concerned about that (I wasn't off a tremendous amount, approx 1200). Anyway, the HR person asked about it and I explained that I included bonuses, etc. He then went on to phone all my references (he probably spoke to about 9 people all for a period of 30 minutes or so), my school (to check my transcript), etc. So, last week he told me that he was going to fax me something. I thought, ooh, offer? And what was it--the part of my application where I put my salary history. I thought there was an off chance that they wanted me to correct it. It turns out, he just wanted to needle me more about it and told me that he will have to speak with some colleagues, because they like precision on their aps--i.e. I may have blown it. I have no idea why they faxed it as I never disputed what I wrote down. And why did they waste so much of their time and my references time if they knew of the discrepency? (How they found out about the discrepency was I was forthright and showed them my salary and bonus documents.)I just needed to vent.

Amy Joyce: Oh, very interesting. Thanks for checking back in. But listen, don't be mad at them for checking with so many references. It's a good sign that they did, but it's also a sign of the times. There are probably multiple multiple people applying for the same job. Any sort of fudging will get you erased a lot faster than if there wasn't a problem there.
But I'm confused, do you have to fill the salary history page? If so, do it and do it correctly. This guy is probably not lying when he says they want the applications to be correct. You may have blown it, but also, they weren't wasting money and resources... it's apparent to me that they want you, and this is the one thing that could keep you from the job, which you don't want, and which it sounds like, they don't want.

Re: Suits: Ann Taylor Loft. They have pretty basic suits (grey, black, beige, etc.), that fit well at pretty reasonable prices. They have a petites section, too!

Amy Joyce: Thanks too...

Interns: I've "supervised" a number of interns and I always try to determine what they want to accomplish and what their interests are. While they do some mundane stuff (work is often mundane, after all) I also think it is important that they get to do something they are really interested in. I also encourage them to "shadow" me to some point, attending meetings, meeting with clients, participating in phone conferences so they get a sense of how the organization works and what our work looks like.

Amy Joyce: It's fine to do mundane stuff. We all still have to Xerox, after all, and if someone does the mundane stuff well, the bosses will trust them to do the more exiting things.
The shadowing, and communicating what they want out of the job, is excellent. I wish there were more intern supervisors like you out there.

Washington, D.C.: Hi Amy,

Don't know if this is your realm or the peanuts. do you know of a website, etc. where I can look up a past, current employee commentary on a company? Had a second interview with a company last week and thought that benefits, salary issues would be discussed. Instead, we just talked more about the job and nothing to that effect (I didn't bring up any such issues either). Is this a common practice? I like the place, manager but am getting suspicious as to why I was called in for a second time just to talk more about the job and not about the stuff that will ultimately be the deciding factor. Thanks!

Amy Joyce: Did you ask questions? Interviewers are always looking for that. Also, ask if you can talk to some employees at the company. That will be a great way to find out how they feel about the place, and also will give you a good feel for the culture if the interviewer is willing to let you chat with current employees.
Anyone know of web sites? There used to be a ton during the dot-com days, but I haven't looked in a while.

re: grad school trip: I've been in a similar situation twice. You should go. The worst thing is to look back and regret a missed opportunity, especially one sacrificed for a job you want to leave (or would fire you without any regrets. And EVERY job will fire you without any regrets. That has also happened to me twice -- although not in the same situations as the trips!)

New Year's is a long way away. You already alerted your boss that this is an opportunity and you are willing to make sure things in the office are squared away so no one is left in the lurch. Just make sure you do that and ask to meet with the boss again in September to outline what needs doing before the holiday season (when everyone is going off to do holiday whatever) and let him/her know professionally, nicely but firmly that you are going on this trip. (How long is it anyway --- two weeks, a month?)

Amy Joyce: Thanks, good to hear from someone who has bene through it.

Been There - Done That: Just a quick comment for all job searchers out there - as i know these questions come up all of the time in your discussion:

I've been there - I've done that.
I was laid off from a very good paying tech job in April, 2002. I found another job in June - which started as a 2 week temp job and ended up being full time until recently. It was not in my field of expertise, or realy what I wanted to do with my life, but it was a paycheck and it paid the bills.
To be honest - it was a hit to my ego - a huge cut in salary - but I had bills to pay and a family to support.
Over the almost year I worked there I kept my contacts with peers, old co-workers, friends from college and let all of these people know I was looking for a job.
If I found a listing for company X - I would email all of my contacts and see if anyone knew someone who worked for that company. Quite a few times I was given a lead.
Eventually I found a job back in technology through a friend who worked for a company that had a job opening.
Remember for every job offered there are probably at least 1000 people applying for it.
I wish you all the best of luck and hope you will take my comments to heart!

Amy Joyce: Thanks for chiming in. This, I'm sure, will help...

re: creativity + bosses: I'm sorry, but I really think that Amy needs to spend a few years working in office environments. I have seen people plan elaborate weddings at work--including making all their long distance phone calls. I've seen folks photocopy books, complete graduate degree theses, socialize like a cocktail party...right now I'm at a job where I have no work to do. Haven't actually done anything for about 8 months. I've asked for responsibility, volunteered for projects, told my boss that I have time to lend a hand. It's running joke on our team. One person has ducked out in the middle of a day to see movies. I've taken 2-3 hour naps in my car (got a pillow and blanket in the back seat)! One teammate is taking early retirement because she can't deal with the boredom anymore. Want in? Come work for the Feds! Not all jobs are like this...but a lot are. The wedding planner I mentioned above was from several years ago when I worked at a real estate firm. I do spend a lot of time now working on materials for the ESL class I voluntarily teach on weekends. I also spend a lot of time on chats like this one.

Amy Joyce: Oh please, like I don't know this stuff goes on? I wrote a column about it not too long ago. I give advice. My advice is to do work when you're at work. I know most workers have some personal issues they take care of during the day. When it gets to the point of not having anything to do for EIGHT MONTHS, I'd say it's absolutely time to start looking elsewhere, or come up with a new job at your workplace.

Very Frustrated: Hi there! Employee Pay Issue here.

I work for a contractor. We are onsite at a fed. place. This place is terrible. All of us are professionals. The head of this contract insists we call in when we come and go every day. I have a serious issue with this, but I do it. I also get distracted very easily. I have mentioned this. So there have been times when I've left a message saying I got here at x time even though it is y now. I didn't sign anything saying this was part of the job, nor was I told. None of us were.

Now I am being told that my phone calls say I worked less than 40 hrs one week. I didn't work less than 40. Do I have a right to insist I get paid because the messages aren't listened to? Does the company have a right to dock my pay?

Amy Joyce: If you left messages saying when you came in, then go ahead and argue it. I don't know about the legality behind cutting your pay. I guess from this, you should take the lesson from this that you should call when you get in. Seems like a frustrating situation to be in, but one that would be easily fixed by a phone call. Ugh.

re: East Coast: (0nline only, please) DO IT! Take the trip. You'll learn something, have a great experience, and who knows? You may interview with someone who LOVES the fact that you took that trip, and get a job out of it. There may not be another opportunity like this.

My SO and I are planning (hoping, actually)on leaving our jobs in the spring by taking a two-month trip thru Europe. About 1 month prior, we will ask for extended leaves of absences. If we don't get them, we plan on quitting 2 weeks prior. Consider what you can save in the meantime. We're in the midst of trying to save up 3 months rent, so when we return, we'll have a little cushion while looking for jobs. Plus, there's nothing wrong w/taking a temp job or waiting tables while looking for the perfect job to use those skills from your new degree. Don't forget to consider insurance while you're away as well - extended Cobra, as an option...Carpe Diem!

Amy Joyce: Thanks. Just one person's opinion... But great point to save some cushion money just in case. I'm also one to say go for it if you think you might regret it later.

Alexandria, Va: I had a wonderful internship several years ago. It was wonderful because I got to do "real" things. Yes, I had some mundane tasks, but so does every job.

My job was very well defined, so I knew exactly what I needed to accomplish. My bosses let me work independently, after initial guidance, but let me know I could come to them any time for support.

They gave me one "big" project, which was exciting for me at the time because it involved traveling for work on my own.

I got my first job out of college because of the experience I gained at this internship, and I give my supervisors all of the credit for creating such a great learning experience.

Amy Joyce: Thanks. It helps to hear this.

Suburban Sprawl, Va: The salary history page is a part of the application, which needs to fill out. What they faxed me was what I had filled out already (to show me what I put down, I suppose, although I never denied it.) I think that part of the story is a bit odd.

Amy Joyce: Aha. That is a bit odd. Call and ask why they did it. Then go from there. Maybe there's not an odd reason...??

Amy Joyce: Okay, folks... time to go. Join in again next week, same time, same place. Have a good week.

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