World Summit: Environmental Issues and Poverty
With Christopher Flavin
President of Worldwatch Institute
Tuesday, Aug. 27, 2002; 2 p.m. EDT

"Opening an international conference designed to extend the reach of the global market without exhausting the world's scarce natural resources, South African President Thabo Mbeki today appealed to rich and poor nations to close the yawning gap between their populations.

"Nearly 100 heads of state and perhaps more than 40,000 people will attend the 10-day United Nations World Summit on Sustainable Development which seeks to reconcile the priorities of prosperous industrialized countries--mainly free-trade expansion and environmental safeguards--with the developing world's need for economic development and poverty relief." Read the full story Earth Summit to Address Needs of the Poor (Post, Aug. 26).

Christopher Flavin, president of Worldwatch Institute, a non-profit public policy research organization focusing on emerging global and environmental problems and trends, discusses the poverty issues raised at the World Summit in Johannesburg, South Africa. He joins us live from Johannesburg.

The transcript follows.

Editor's Note: Washingtonpost.com moderators retain editorial control over Live Online discussions and choose the most relevant questions for guests and hosts; guests and hosts can decline to answer questions.

Christopher Flavin: Here in Johannesburg, we're in the second day of the World Summit, and this is shaping up to be a very dramatic meeting, with wide differences on issues ranging from trade to energy security, and poverty reduction. Thousands of government representatives, UN officials, and citizen groups are working furiously to achieve a successful outcome. I look forward to hearing your questions.

Washington, D.C.: How siginificant is it that President Bush is not attending the Summit on Sustainable Development in Johannesburg? What does this say about the US position on sustainable international development?

Christopher Flavin: President Bush is sorely missed here in Johannesburg. His decision to not attend, despite the presence of over 100 presidents and prime ministers has led many to question the US commitment to environmental progress and economic development. This leaves Secretary of State Colin Powell with much work to do to show that the US is seriously committed to a better world.

Washington, D.C.: Is the summit discussing the effects of the increasing human population on the environment? Is anyone calling for zero population growth?

Christopher Flavin: Population was a major area of discussion at one of the sessions here in Johannesburg today, in a session sponsored by the UN Population Fund. Specific commitments on population will not be the issue here, but will likely be picked up at future summits. There is growing agreement around the world that stabilizing world population is one of the keys to a sustainable economy.

Alexandria, Va.: What is anti-globalization? Are people who believe in this cause violent?

Christopher Flavin: The anti-globalization movement represents a diverse array of people and organizations that are concerned about the rapid gowth of trade and international financial flows and their effect on social progress and environmental sustainability around the world. Many are concerned that corporations play to large a role in the global economy and politics. Most are non-violent, though there are a few exceptions.

Nanaimo, BC, Canada: Hi Christopher. Firstly, I'd like to commend the work of Worldwatch Institute. Secondly, and please forgive my pessimism and negativity, how can we address the issue of poverty and economic development of developing nations with the prevailing consciousness of "survival of the (so-called) fittest", which the South African president alluded to, which along with greed,is driving the developing nations and which is further fueled by bodies such as the WTO who appear to serve solely the interests of corporate entities with little or no interest in the greater common good?

Christopher Flavin: Thank you for your complement. Overcoming this survival of the fittest philosophy is exactly what this Summit is about. I wish you were here to see the spirit of enthusiasm for creating a better world vbased on shared human values.

Warwick University, Coventry, UK: How well can voluntary instruments for corporations guarantee substantive environmental protection?

Christopher Flavin: Voluntary agreements cannot by themselves ensure a sustainable future. We need binding international agreements among governments, which should be complemented by partnerships among non-governmental organizations of various kinds.

Ottawa, Ontario, Canada: Christopher, the Rio Summit give impetus to multilateral environmental agreements (MEAs) in the areas of biodoversity, forests, desertification, and climate change. Will or should any new MEA flow from the Joburg Summit?

Christopher Flavin: The focus in Johannesburg is developing plans of action to address the existing multilateral enviornmental agreements and other environmental commitments already in place. No new MEAs beyond the plan of action are intended from the Summit.

Washington, D.C.: How many of the G-8 industrialized countries are represented by heads of state? Is this a meeting that Bush can't do because it requires issues experience that he doens't have, or is it a gathering that most industrialized nations aren't focusing on?

Christopher Flavin: I believe that the US is the only G8 country not represented by its leader. His decision not to attend suggests either that he is enjoying his Texas ranch so much that he doesn't want to experience the delights of Johannesburg or that he is insufficiently committed to the economic and environmental issues that are the focus here.

Duluth, Minn.: Since the only "sustainable" energy for this 21st century will be nuclear, why do your maintain the priority on low grade energy sources of wind, solar and hydro?

I submit that the time needed to transition from oil/gas to nuclear is already past due. Who should we blame for worldwide depression when the oil/gas runs out?

Christopher Flavin: Wind and solar energy are now growing at 25 % per year, and nuclear at less than 0.5% per year (during the last decade in both cases). Renewables are the energy sources of the future--just ask government and industry leaders from around the world. Check out the BP website. One of the world's leading oil companies now says that oil is the way out, and therefore, they're investing in solar. It's time to face facts. Nuclear is a dying industry.

Madison, Wis.: Hi Christopher,

Thanks for this great opportunity. Has the name Bjorn Lomborg come up much in the Johannesburg meeting? I know he is propagating a belief system in which the world population is stabilizing, air quality is getting better, and in general we shouldn't worry too much. He was recently named the head of Denmark's national Environmental Assessment Institute. I know his beliefs are strongly disputed by many in the environmental community; settling these arguments seems of fundamental importance to me.

Christopher Flavin: Bjorn is here, unfortunately. However, the Danish government was sufficiently embarrassed by his provocative staements that they issued a statment today saying,Lomborg and his Institute "do not represnt the Danish Government."

Rochester, N.Y.: Christopher,

I do appreciate that you and your delegation are taking such an active role in presenting the viewpoints of Worldwatch and other organizations in the U.S.

In the absence of support for the Summit by the Bush administration, it is wonderful that the world gets to see that many of the citizens of our country support the process that is underway in Johannesburg.

Do you believe that the rest is able to see this support or do they believe that the majority rally around the position held by our government? Most of the people I speak to are greatly embarrassed by the lack of engagement by our President.

Wayne

Christopher Flavin: I am frequently asked by people from other countries whether the views of the Bush administration they find so disturbing are shared by the American public. I assure them that the Bush views on environmental and social issues and on the importance of multilateral action are not shared by the majority of Americans.

Tuticorin, India: I am belong to the developing country. I wish to know what are the steps being taken to conserve the water resources of India? The place where I am living, is drought prone and can't get a good portable water. Is there any possibility to provide a good portable water and is it any good water harvesting programme?

Jawahar, an assistant professor

Christopher Flavin: I am not a water expert myself, but I understand that there are a variety of appropriate technologies being developed to provide potable water efficiently in countries like India. I suggest you contact Sandra Postel of the Global Water Policy Project and Worldwatch for additional details.

Minneapolis, Minn.: How binding will the agreements reached at the summit be, and what hope do you have that the countries involved will stick to them? Their track record is not impressive.

Christopher Flavin: You have pinpointed one of the big outstanding questions here in Joburg. The US is resisting binding commitments, but many other countries want tough, specific commitments. For example, it's been proposed that the conference adopt specific commitments to develop renewable energy, provide water to the poor, and conserve biological diversity.

One mechanism that's been proposed to ensure compliance is to have annual meetings to review progress in meeting the commitments that have been made here.

Helsinki, Finland: Mr.Flavin

To pessimistic me most of the change happening in the way people/businesses/goverments relate to the environment is just lip service.

What, in your opinion, is the number one reason for the relatively slow pace of real change in environmental issues? (for all of the above: people,business,goverments)

Christopher Flavin: The problem with environmental politics is that the benficiaries of progress are numerous, diffuse, and not well organized. On the other hand, there are many established industries that are well-organized to block progress--coal, oil, chemicals, etc. They've been very busy in the decade since Rio.

Alexandria, Va.: I'd like to second the remark that we're lucky your organization is there in light of President Bush's apparent lack of interest.

What other American organizations are there, and how are they contributing to the process?

Christopher Flavin: You'll be pleased to know that there are thousands of Americans here who are committed to creating a better world. They range from groups committed to reducing poverty to groups working to protect forests, oceans, and rivers. In addition, many companies are here, focusing there message on a new generation of clean cars, renewable energy technologies and the like. People from around the world are able to see that not all Americans are neanderthals--despite what they read in their newspapers.

Vienna, Va.: You answered a caller by stating that it was time to face facts. Let's look at some facts, especially concerning solar and wind energy. Does the wind blow constantly at significant speeds, and from the same direction? Does the sun stay above the horizon constantly, or does it set every night? (In fact, in the polar regions it is down for months at a time). Is it always sunny, or do clouds sometimes form that cut down on solar energy? My point, obviously, is that it is nice to preach the hypothetical benefits of solar and wind power but, as you say, one needs to face FACTS.

Christopher Flavin: You missed one key fact. Intermittent renewables such as wind and solar can be used to produce hydrogen, which can be stored--as with oil and natural gas--and consumed when needed. By the way, how is it that we're able to have a constant supply of electricity despite the occassional breakdown of nuclear power plants. The answer is that we build sufficient back up capacity to provide a replacement for the occassional unreliability of nuclear plants.

Capitol Hill, Washington, D.C.: How does President Bush expect worldwide support for his war on terrorism when he does not seem to care the least bit about issues other countries deem important, Johannesburg being a brilliant example of this?

Christopher Flavin: You hit the nail on the head my friend. YWe can't afford to look at international relations as a Chinese menu--just eating from the dishes we prefer. President Bush ignores our dependence on the rest of the world at our country's peril.

Maryland: Birth rates in all 1st World nations are falling below replacement, anywhere from 1.9 to 1.2 per couple. Birthrates fall in concert with rising GNP. This would seem to argue that population will stabilize and then fall as long as economic developement continues in the rest of the world.

Christopher Flavin: Birth rates fall in relation to social progress--meeting basic needs and improving the status of women in particular--and is not always correlated with GNP. In addition, modern contraceptives are key, which is one reason that birth rates are falling rapidly in much of Latin America and Asia as well as Europe and N. America. We now need to focus on the remaining countires in Africa, the Middle East, and South Asia.

Gullsgate Minn.: Christopher Flavin: Corporate responsibility is a big issue and the record of Exxon, Premier and Shell has left an oily footprint of pollution, human rights abuses and exploitation in vulnerable countries.
The water issue alone and the possibility of privatzation of same by corporations is, another big issue.

How hopeful are you that some positive focus can be achieved, enough to activate change by stopping that bug in the picture, corporate greed? Thank you.

Christopher Flavin: Corporations do contribute to many environmental and social problems, as well as helping to solve them. What is needed are solid national and international regulations and agreements to steer investment in an environmentally and socially sustainable direction. Greed can sometimes be good if it's properly harnessed.

Alexandria, Va.: Geothermal energy should not be overlooked as an important source of renewable energy for both power (electricity) generation and direct uses (e.g., space heating, aquaculture, greenhouses, dehydration, etc.).

Christopher Flavin: I agree. Where it's available, geothermal has a big role to play.

Washington, D.C.: Christopher, since Rio, little action has been taken by the G-8 governments to restrict deforestation, CO2 emmissions, population growth, debt forgiveness, etc. What measures are being discussed to address the "Implementation Gap" that has dominated this landscape for the last 10 years?

Christopher Flavin: The implementation gap is the major focus here at the Summit. The key is to come up action plans on key issues like energy, water, and biodiversity, with much of the implementation occuring at national and local levels. In addition, many partnerships with non-government organizations are being formed to address implementation.

washingtonpost.com: Divergent Agendas at Summit (Post, Aug. 27)

Grinnell, Iowa: Greetings Christopher,

What place are discussions concerning the consumption side of environmental problems having at the summit? Also is there much discussion about materials economy sustainable practices such as "cradle to grave" programs?

Thanks

Christopher Flavin: Consumption is a growing subject of discussion here at the Summit and around the world. A session today was focused on it. Many are realizing that we cannot have a sustainable world unless we restrain our consumption levels. Worldwatch's next State of the World report will also focus on consumption.

Christopher Flavin: Thank you all for the great questions relating on the World Summit in Johannesburg. I hope you will all do what you can to help create a sustainable world, which is as much the responsibility of citizens as of governments and UN officials.

To a sustainable future,
Chris Flavin
Worldwatch Institute
(in Johannesburg)

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