John Keahey in Venice

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'NOVA's
Sinking City of Venice'
With John Keahey
Author, 'Venice Against the Sea'
Tuesday, Nov. 19, 2002; 1 p.m. ET

Will Venice one day become a city only SCUBA divers visit?

In a new special, NOVA explores soggy secret of Venice: the meandering canals that once made Venice one of the most romantic and unique tourist destinations in the world, now threaten to overtake the city. Venice's population is half of what it was in 1950 and the remaining residents are asking themselves how they can save the ancient city. NOVA takes you to the frontline of the battle to rescue Venice from drowning beneath the sea -- including a close look at the pros and cons of multibillion dollar series of massive retractable gates that will take 8-10 years to install, sealing out the ocean altogether. The lessons learned in Venice will eventually prove essential for New York, Miami, San Francisco, and coastal cities around the world.

John Keahey, author of "Venice Against the Sea," will be online Tuesday, Nov. 19 at 1 p.m. ET, to take questions on the NOVA special and his book about saving Venice from the sea.

Keahey is a veteran newspaper journalist who, since 1989, has been a news editor and reporter for The Salt Lake Tribune. He has history and marketing degrees from the University of Utah and spends as much time as possible in Italy.

"Nova's The Sinking City of Venice" airs on PBS Tuesday, Nov. 19, 2002, at 8 p.m. ET. (Check local listings).

The transcript follows.

Editor's Note: Washingtonpost.com moderators retain editorial control over Live Online discussions and choose the most relevant questions for guests and hosts; guests and hosts can decline to answer questions.

Alexandria, Va.: Why is Venice sinking?

John Keahey: Venice is sinking in two ways -- through natural subsidence and through many years of pumping of groundwater from beneath the city. The bigger problem with Venice now is the rise in sea level because of global warming.

Reading, Pa.: Why is the city (Venice) so depopulated?

John Keahey: The city is getting harder to live in full time and for families because of the crush of tourism and because of the increasing frequency of acqua alta -- high water. The city's services are stretched to the limit and all of this combined makes for tough family life. People are moving to the mainland, but commute to Venice to run their business and work at hotels.

Harrisburg, Pa.: What are the educated guesses, if no action is taken, on how soon Venice will be totally underwater? Further, if global warming is fact, which seems more and more likely, how soon might places like Manhattan be underwater?

John Keahey: That's a big question. I don't believe Venice will be underwater permanently for a few centuries. Humans will intervene if they can get past politics and cost debate. It's just a matter of when. The city does get dry through periods and it is a long way from being inundated consistently. There are projects proposed to prevent that, but debate as to whether those are adequate.

There are approximately a hundred urban coastal areas throughout the world in danger from rising sea levels. The Adriatic, islands in the Indian Ocean. Some need to be surrounded by barriers. If the sea level rose one foot around Florida, most of south Florida would be under water. Lower Manhattan, Boston Harbor...

Global warming appears to be a reality and as this occurs, people need to take steps to prevent it. There's no easy solution and nothing that will happen on a certain date we can all plan for.

Vienna, Va.: I don't understand the structure that the city was built on. Why would anyone think that a city built on water would last? I have never been there but wonder if the foundations of buildings have not eroded yet and if the water is pretty filthy?

John Keahey: That's a great question.

The city was built in the ninth century on approximately 117 islands in the center of the lagoon and these islands were divided by streams and small rivers. There were mudbanks, sometimes underwater at high tide.

The way they built the permanent city on these soft, mushy structures was that they drove into the mud millions of Alder poles, they denuded mountainsides to cut down trees for this. The mud layer was 10 feet deep before the hard rock bottom of the lagoon. They were placed all over. On top of these poles were place impermeable marble. And the marble is what the water washed up against. So when high tides came in, they would wash up on that. Above that was the brick walls and so forth. And those little rivers became the canals of Venice. The poles have become petrified and have grown stronger with age. And they keep getting stronger.

If exposed to air, they deteriorate rapidly, so there are strict rules re: excavation. They were able to build huge structures on these.

Now the water is high enough to be above the impermeable foundations. The brick is pulling the water into the buildings and that's what is undermining the buildings themselves.

Washington, D.C.: What is the reluctance in closing off the lagoon surrounding Venice entirely and making it a lake?

John Keahey: The political powers that be are very much in favor building this gate system -- three entrances. There are a small group of archeologists and environmentalists who oppose it. They say the gates will not solve the problem in any long-term way because sea levels are rising so quickly. So they worry the problem will still be there once the gates are constructed. It will take at least eight years to build them. They need to buil a lock so shipping can get in while gates are being constructed.

If working by 2012, there are those who believe that it will only do good for another 10 years. At which point the gates would have to be up all the time, at which point you'd lose the cleansing action of the tides.

Venice has to face a major paradigm shift in what it is. Does it continue to be open to the sea or completely surround itself with dikes as the Dutch have done.

Falls Church, Va.: I've been to Venice and, yes, it is indeed beautiful. But I was sickened by the sewage pipes emptying right into the canals. This is just simply irresponsible in the year 2002. Why hasn't the Italian government installed a municipal sewage system?

John Keahey: There is not one, but its changing.

I'd say you obviously saw conditions at low tide. It is quite shocking for the unitiated. This has been the way its been done for 1,000 years in Venice and a system that has worked very well up to modern times. Plus we have a different concentration of urban situations.

What they are doing now, in addition to gate work, there is a whole body of work being done within the historic center to dredge the canals and to rebuild the sides of canals. The sewer system is also being upgraded to community, neighborhood type septic tanks. And eventually, the long-range proposal is to build a conventional sewer system. They are aware of the problem.

Arlington, Va: As the local population appears to be giving up on saving Venice (50% decline since 1950), isn't there international support for a solution to the sinking of one of the most culturally venerated cities in the world?

John Keahey: There are international concerns and local concerns. The Venetian government is to be commended for working hard to make the city more livable. Part of this interior work is that. He's trying to bring business into Venice.

The flooding isn't a good selling point, but efforts are being made. People are being given money to improve their homes. There's waterproof brick people are putting into their canal foundations. Costa really emotes the loss of its citizenry and he supports the gates while others of his coalition do not. So he's standing out there alone politically. In a positive way, he's desperate to restore the city.

Meanwhile, its up to the national government that has the deeper pockets to ultimately save the city from the rising tides.

Somewhere, USA: Just wondering how the oil spill in Spain will affect Venice, if at all?

John Keahey: Probably not. That's a long way away. The whole penninsula of Italy sweeps down into the Adriatic. If storm conditions were correct it could get close. There are more areas that will be dramatically affected.

Andover, Mass.: I just wanted to comment that my son is in Italy as we speak and called yesterday to tell me that he was in Venice over the weekend and that he and his friend had to buy boots as they had flooding the worse since 1964 or 1966. He especially mentioned St. Mark's Square. So last night I happened to see that this program is going to be on tonight. What a strange thing to happen. He said it was terrible and like I said had to buy boots as they couldn't get out of the hotel.

John Keahey: I too have talked to friends in Venice via e-mail and that's exactly what they describe. Many people there have boots that come up to the knees and that was inadequate. It is well above the knees. You need fly-fisherman's waders.

The city completely shuts down. You see people walking around with garbage bags tied onto each leg. I experienced 1.44 meters once.

It does go down in a few hours.

Arlington, Va.: I'm familiar with the proposed plan for massive gates to block floodwaters from entering the lagoon. I'm also familiar with the criticism that the closure of these gates could cause a pollution build-up.

I'm wondering, has anyone proposed a filtration system that could keep the water clean when the gates are closed?

John Keahey: Not as such to my knowledge. The gates are only expected in normal situations to be up a short period of time. Then as the tide goes out, they would be lowered. Theoretically. In a situation like this week they could be up almost every day and therein lies the problem. The lagoon has to flush itself or this build-up becomes difficult to deal with.

That's why those who oppose the gates say a different solution needs to be found. People have talked about building dikes around the historic center. They couldn't close off the lagoon because of fishfarming, fishing, etc. There are minor projects proposed including the raising of the floor of the entrances to the lagoon. they are going to begin a process to make the water flow in less dramatically.

There are a lot of things being talked about and proposed and they seem to be willing to take it step by step.

Southern Pines, N.C.: Are you involved with Julian Norwich and his organization? They seem to be the primary private contributors so far, or am I wrong?

John Keahey: They are and I know that this person is talking about Venice in Peril -- a British private concern. I'm not involved with them. Along with an American group called Save Venice, and several other foreign committess -- do tremendous work in restoring individual art and buildings -- churches, etc. Through private philanthropy, but they can not solve the greater problem of Venice.

Greenville, .C.: What percentage of the sinking do you attribute to the woes of "progress" (that is, motor boats and other forces casued by humans) and/or to the passing of time?

Thank you.

John Keahey: I don't believe motor boats are contributing to the sinking, but to the deterioration of the canal walls. But the human impact has been dramatic.

In the mid 1930s Mussolini constructed chemical plants and other polluting type industries in Northern Italy -- around the lagoon on the mainland with this pristine city in front of it.

When that industry drills more than 1000 wells deep into the mainland around and drew out much of the groundwater, the bubble the city floated on -- this accelerated the sinking that was being done naturally by about 50 years.

If this had not happened, the city would be 50 years ahead of where it is. It would still have aqua alta. That all stopped in the 1970s, though.

Southern Pines, NC: Is red algae still a problem in the lagoons?

John Keahey: Yes, it is. During the summer months these boats that harvest red algae go back and forth pulling it up. The lagoon is out of whack chemically. You don't see it much in the tourist areas. But it is a continuing problem and will be till the lagoon will be brought into ecological balance.

Somewhere, USA: If everyone needs to purchase boots for the city.. what is the tourist attraction for that! Is Venice seeing a decrease in tourism because of the flooding?

John Keahey: I don't get the sense that tourism is decreasing. This is not a constant, daily problem -- though it could be. The hotels that people stay in -- mid-range to upper end hotels -- will pass out boots with hard bottoms, then a plastic thing that comes above the knees. It makes it a novelty, like it is a major attraction of Venice, in the interest of marketing.

The high water generally comes and goes and people may experience it for a few hours under normal conditions. Then the water drains away.

I experienced the 4.4 meter flood late at night and in the morning the puddles were draining and the orchestras were striking up their show tunes.

Arlington, Va.: Regarding the question of saving Venice, what should happen or can happen from stopping the city from becoming a Disney-type "experience?" No locals can afford to live there and as you say, the pressures of tourism and high water make daily life even more of a pain. No turning back the clock, but has any thought being given as for whom Venice is being saved?

John Keahey: That's an excellent question. The mayor is dealing with that and it is a real struggle. Tourism is their livelihood. They are no longer shippers/traders. They rely on shops, glass factories. But they are trying to control the numbers through a reservation system. That if people will reserve a time there, they can get discount cards for the museums and in that way, they hesitate to put a limit. But the city is very aware of it and is doing a great deal to smooth that out.

Southern Pines, N.C.: As anyone who has visited it knows, Venice is a supremely expensive place to live. Isn't this in part responsible for the exodus? Affordable housing is almost non-existent, non?

John Keahey: Yes. The city does have plans in place that subsidize families to restore buildings and stay in the city. There's a program in place that provides money to a first time homeowner to buy their first home in the city in order to keep them there. That's among the many efforts being made.

It is true that people buying the expensive properties -- the palazzos along the Grand Canal -- are foreigners. You have rich Americans, Brits, Woody Allen I understand and that does tend to make it a city of foreigners. The local government hopes to keep traditional Venetians in the city.

Somewhere, USA: What do you propose Americans do to help?

John Keahey: Continue to support organizations such as Save Venice so that individual pieces of art can be restored. They also work to restore regular buildings and in a traditional sense . So supporting the private committees is probably the best way for individual Americans.

John Keahey: This whole issue is very much in the news in Italy and it is getting wider coverage. The Italian goverment is struggling to find a way to deal with it. Environmentalists are trying to protect the lagoon and quality of life. They all have honorable goals, but they differ dramatically. It is all being sorted out and we need to keep watching over the next few years. If the government changes, the plan could change 90 degrees.

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