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Baseball Labor Negotiations
With Harvey Frommer, Author and Sports Historian
Friday, Aug. 30, 2002; Noon EDT
As Major League Baseball owners and players continue negotiations, disgruntled fans are not only fed up, but feeling a sense of gloom with the all American sport. Many are expressing their disappointment from the stands by holding up posters with slogans like, "One more strike, we're out."
Negotiators hope to reach "a new labor agreement before a player strike begins at 3:20 p.m. (EDT) today in Chicago, where the St. Louis Cardinals are scheduled to play the Cubs." Read the full story Baseball Negotiations Continue (Post, Aug. 30).
Join noted sports journalist and historian Harvey Frommer to talk about the recent Major League Baseball baseball negotiations and strikes.
Frommer is the author of more than 30 sports books, including "Growing Up Baseball," the classics "Shoeless Joe," "Ragtime Baseball," New York City Baseball, and The New York Yankee Encyclopedia. He is the author of the soon to be released "A Yankee Century: A Celebration of the First Hundred Years of Baseball's Greatest Team." A
professor at Dartmouth College, he wrote for Yankees Magazine for 16 years.
The transcript follows.
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Harvey Frommer: I seem to get the feeling that we have been here before several times. And it is a feeling that I as a sports author and fan and that millions of others share a feeling that we don't like. What about the fans? What about the game? It is kind of revolting that these player millionaires and owner billionaires are doing what they are doing. Incredibly as we talk, breaking news has come in that the strike threat has been averted which will make everybody happy in the meantime, but what about the next time? This brings me back to an anecdote from way back when in NY city baseball history. The old Brooklyn Dodgers and the old NY Giants were threatening to leave for California (which they did as everybody knows) and the owner of the Giants Horace Stoneham was asked by reporters "What about the kids?" His answer, an arrogant one at that was "What about the fathers, I haven't seen many of them lately?" That exchange kind of underscores the strike vs. not to strike situations and scenarios that baseball fans are put through time after time.
Washington, D.C.:
Harvey, even though you have written primarily about the Yankees, I still respect your writings and opinions.
My simple question is this...Why do the unions/negotiators consistently choose the middle of the season to hammer out these labor contracts. Why can't they set an expiration date of November or December, and, if given and extention, not extend it to the next post-season. There are 4 solid months between the World Series and Opening Day. Can't they hammer these things out in the offseason?
Harvey Frommer: Washington, D.C. I'm still glad you respect my writings and opinions, I respect your questions too. In my humble opinion, the reason that the negotiations are not taking place in the off season is that there no sword for the players association and the owners to hold over people's heads. They can't get a work stoppage in November or December when there's no baseball and that is why they do it now while the season to hold a pressure of a strike over everyone.
Washington, D.C.:
I've seen several opinion polls in which a great percentage of people have said they will give up on Major League Baseball if there's another strike. Do you think that baseball fans will be that angry and disgusted -- to keep that promise to abandon the sport?
Harvey Frommer: I agree that if there had been a strike, there would be many many people who would turn off Major League Baseball and perhaps go to minor league baseball and other sports. Just as when the old Brooklyn Dodgers and the NY Giants moved (in my opening statement), there were people who were fans of those teams that never followed baseball again.
Baltimore:
If you wrote a history of the Washington Senators, do you think they'd still want to have a team here?
Harvey Frommer: It really would be wonderful to have a Washington team in the nation's Capitol. I would hopefully even have a chance to see them play!
Washington:
Would the strike have affected minor league ball? Would they have been required to strike to? How would it have affected them - besides the obvious of not being called up to the Show?
Harvey Frommer: The strike would have affected minor league baseball in a positive way. I think more and more people, without major league baseball available, would go to see minor league baseball. There is a real appeal in the minor league game for those of us who have seen those teams play.
Centreville, Va.:
Are we going down the same road as before? Everything is happy, the fans come back and then another talk of strike?
Harvey Frommer: I definitely believe that we are going down the same road as before. The average salary as of the moment for a baseball player is $2.3 million a season. There are players who are getting $6 million a year who are hitting .250. That doesn't include, believe it or not, meal money! Everyday you see another player coming up with a pinky finger that hurts or a hamstring that gets pulled or an ankle that gets a little twisted and they go on to a disabled list or worse. That is just a little bit of what exists and will continue to exist on the player side. On the owners' side, there are these uncounted millions and millions of dollars coming in from media revenue. So back to you Centreville, Va., the same road as before still exists.
Virginia:
When was the last baseball strike?
Harvey Frommer: 1994 -- The World Series was cancelled for the first time in 90 years. At least we've avoided it this time around.
Washington, D.C.:
How come football, hockey and basketball have the fewer strikes than baseball?
Harvey Frommer: Perhaps they have better people on both sides of the negotiating table. But that is just perhaps.
Colorado Springs, Colo.:
Even without heading on strike, do you think Major League Baseball has damaged its relationship with the fans by taking them to the cliff of a possible strike?
Harvey Frommer: I definitely agree with you that major league baseball has damaged its relationship with fans by taking them to a cliff of a possible strike. To realize that a player like Alex Rodriguez of Texas would have lost, if there was a strike, $114,754 a day is kind of obscene to realize the kind of money he and others are making and to realize how much the owners are paying is also obscene. The typical fan comes with his family to a game makes no where near that in an entire year's salary. That is really why you have hit the nail on the head with your question.
Maryland:
Even if a settlement is reached today, I don't expect the agreement to fix baseball's real problem of competitive imbalance. Instead of a luxury tax, MLB needs a revenue sharing plan similar to the NFL's. Will the owners and players ever go for that? If they don't, I predict that baseball will face the threat of yet another strike or lockout in a few years.
Harvey Frommer: Your prediction that baseball is going to face a threat of a lockout or strike in a few years makes sense. I agree with you that major league baseball needs a revenue sharing plan similar to the national football league. Sharing and spreading the wealth around would really make for a more competitive balance.
Oxford, Ohio:
I just heard on ESPN no strike, and the agreement includes no contraction. Does that make it pretty much a given that the Expos will be playing at RFK next April?
Harvey Frommer: I don't think so. Who can say for sure?
Harvey Frommer: Re: previous question
It would be terrible for the Montreal fans and great for Washington if it happens.
Long Beach:
I've heard that the year after DiMaggio hit in 56 straight, that the Yankees
G.M. insisted he take a pay cut. Is that true?
Harvey Frommer: That's a story that has been circulated.
Laurel:
How believeable are Bud Selig's numbers about MLB's losses? About the necessity to reduce the number of teams?
Did baseball, like the NASDAQ, overspend in the 90's and now face the inevitible results of an over-indulged economic cycle?
Harvey Frommer: We live in a time now that skepticism abounds. Like the NASDAQ, like political claims, like so many other things, who do you believe and what do you believe?
Springfield, VA:
Not a question but a comment: I think it's humorous that you see pictures of fans in the stands eating and drinking, but waving a sign saying that the players make too much money. The owners want more of these fans so they can line their pockets.
Harvey Frommer: Good comment.
McLean, Va.:
I understand that the agreement reached would prevent contraction through '06. Isn't this good news for D.C.'s chances of landing a team?
Harvey Frommer: It could be good news for D.C.'s chances for landing a team but if they don't contract then there might be the possibility for a team like Montreal being moved to D.C. We'll have to wait and see.
Baltimore, Md.:
How do you rank Bud Selig among commissioners?
Harvey Frommer: My least favorite baseball commissioner was Kenesaw Mountain Landis. He was the one who band Shoeless Joe Jackson and other Chicago White Sox players out of baseball for life. He was anti-union, anti-black, anti-Semitic and he was anti-illiterate. But in my opinion as I wrote in my book "Shoeless Joe" and "Ragtime Baseball", Landis was a posturing fraud and a self-promoter. I have always ranked him as the worst of the baseball commissioners.
Bud Selig is not among the worst but I would not place him among the best. He's somewhere in the middle.
Mt. Vernon, VA:
Am I the only fan who really blames the owners for this almost-strike? The players just wanted the status quo. The owners, (falsely) claiming poverty, wanted major concessions (which it appears they got because of 9/11). The waste and mismanagement of most teams is legendary (as well as the fact that most owners put every member of their family on the payroll at enormous salaries). Moreover, the value of most teams has skyrocketed in the past ten years, giving many owners a windfall when they sell. Why is everyone claiming that the players are the bad guys here?
Harvey Frommer: I partly agree with your point of view but it takes two to tango as they say. As I said earlier, the owners are making enormous sums of money and crying all the way to the bank but the players are also not doing badly either. The impass that was just finally, allegedly straightened out and the strike being lifted really came at the 11th hour. You're not the only fan that blames the owners for this almost strike but give the players a little credit for it too.
Long Beach:
I've heard that the Owners have
ALWAYS lied about their books. They have
NEVER spoken the truth. Is that True?
If so, skepticism is an understatement.
Harvey Frommer: I would not go as that far but you can if you want to.
Columbia, MD:
I will preface my question by saying that I am thrilled a strike has been averted. As a huge baseball fan, I want to focus on the great things happening this season. The AL West race, Schilling and Johnson, and hopefully another great World Series.
My quesiton:
Why do the owners insist on making the players responsible for the high salaries by enforcing a luxury tax. Why can't the owners police themselves.
Also, how is George Stienbrenner going to handle the luxury tax issue. Wasn't there talk of him suing MLB if a luxury tax was imposed?
Harvey Frommer: The talk of George Stienbrenner suing MLB if a luxury tax was imposed was apparently just talk. Nothing has been verified about that as we move forward and see the games go on. I think you are definitely right in asking the question of why can't the owners police themselves and the players responsible for high salaries by imposing a luxury tax. That is why even with the euphoria of a strike not going forward, there still are landmines that are around for the seasons ahead.
Long Beach:
Do you think baseball would be more
exciting if the home plate umpire was wired
for sound?
Harvey Frommer: I definitely think it would be more exciting if the homeplate umpire was wired but there might be no control of what comes out of his mouth and perhaps that is why all of these years he has not been wired. And talking about wiring, to really get the voices of baseball out there, what about wiring all the players and coaches? That would be something!
Rockville, Md.:
This time there's no Cal Ripken. That should say it all.
Harvey Frommer: The Cal Ripkens and the Tony Gwynns and players who spend their entire career with one team have always been the backbone of the game to me. There really is a shame that there is so few players today that will stay with a franchise. Jackie Robinson, for example, was traded after a decade with the Dodgers to the NY Giants but he retired rather than go because his identiy was as a Brooklyn Dodger. Today, it is almost like hired guns for sale who move from team to team. The seeing of a player throughout his career with the same team really does something for the fans and the franchise and there should be more of it.
Rockville, MD:
The bio that's posted for you says that you wrote the classic, "Shoeless Joe."
Do tell...??
Harvey Frommer: I did write "Shoeless Joe and Ragtime Baseball." It's one of my favorite books that I've written. There's an awful lot there about baseball at a more innocent time. It also about how power can be abusive and how one of the greatest baseball players of all time, Joseph Jefferson Jackson, was banned from playing the game by a bigoted baseball commissioner. That's all the time I have to tell about it.
Vienna, Va.:
I sometimes wonder why the PUBLIC doesn't strike......the fans need to put the league (both players and owners) on notice that there will be a ceiling to ticket and concession prices and they will simply not pay any more than this. How the league keeps costs down will be up to them, but for too long the public has been financing these huge salaries with inflated ticket prices, and enough is enough.
Harvey Frommer: I totally agree with the commment "I sometimes wonder why the PUBLIC doesn't strike" because it really is the fans, the public, who pay the freight for all the high salaries and the money that the owners are making. It really is starting to get out of hand. Ironically enough, this is the Labor Day weekend and back in the old days, there were union members who would go on strike and they would strike for days, weeks or months and it would be a hardship on them and their families. But this time around the idea of a baseball strikes, millionaires vs. billionaires is a bit too much. We all breathe a sigh of relief that the games will go forward but I wonder had there been a strike would the game have survived? Fortunately we don't have to contemplate that question.
Thanks for having me on washingtonpost.com, my favorite Internet news site! Hopefully I'll be able to return to talk about my newest book, "A Yankee Century" that will be coming out in October.
washingtonpost.com:
That wraps up today's show. Thanks to everyone who joined the
discussion.
Stay tuned to Live Online:
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