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'Carnegie'
With Peter Krass
Author
Thursday, Oct. 3, 2002; 3 p.m. ET
In the new biography "Carnegie" author Peter Krass paints a portrait of the life and mind of Andrew Carnegie, pioneering industrialists and arguably a genius, villian and emotionally troubled man -- depending on who you ask.
Krass will be online Thursday, Oct. 3 at 3 p.m. ET, to discuss the life of Andrew Carnegie -- the legend and the reality.
The transcript follows.
Krass' other books include "The Book of Business Wisdom," "The Book of Leadership Wisdom" and "The Book of Investing Wisdom." He has also contributed articles to Investor's Business Daily and Across the Board. His family roots are in the Pittsburgh, Pa. area where Carnegie made his fortune and his own great-grandfather worked in a Carnegie steel mill.
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Peter Krass: Hi everybody, I'm here to discuss Andrew Carnegie, who was born in 1835 and died in 1919. He came to power during the Gilded Age, a period in our history we're still fascinated with, even mesmerized by. It was a free-wheeling time that we appear to have relived during the 90s bubble.
Vienna, Va.:
What admirable traits did you see in Carnegie that would help business leaders today?
Peter Krass: First off, he disdained Wall Street -- he felt it was filled with gamblers. He was conservative in that regard. But he was also willing to risk everything. He also put 75% of his profits back into his business rather than spending them on frivolous art, yachts, etc.
Indiana:
Notre Dame University: I play baseball for the Notre Dame's baseball team and was just wondering if Andrew Carnegie had any strong interest in sports given his competitive streak? I would hate to have him pitching to me!
Peter Krass: Carnegie was a fanatic golfer. When he lost, he was in a foul mood for days. He also loved to fish, and a friend once said he pulled in a fish like he was pulling in another million dollars. But when it came to sports like football, he considered it base, a blood sport, and for the uncultivated.
Arlington, Va.:
What inspired you to write the book on Carnegie?
Peter Krass: Carnegie is an incredibly complicated character, which is what you look for -- meat to work with. To give you an example, imagine it's 1898 and the Spanish American War is raging. Imagine Carnegie in his library dictating letters to his secretary. One minute he is beating up his managers to get into weaponry immediately, then, that same day, he sends a check to a destitute relative in Scotland and makes sure his cousin in Pittsburgh gets the best eyeglasses. In another letter during the war, he tells his partner Henry Clay Frick how profitable their weapons plant will be and in the next paragraph he's talking about what a lovely pair their daughters make. We see the face of the fierce competitor and then the face of the loving father. Carnegie was a self-proclaimed pacifist to boot -- yet they went into weapons! Can these faces/contradictions be reconciled? No.
Carnegie, I think, was like a flawed shakesperean hero who wore many masks. It was great fun to explore the man behind each mask.
Somewhere, USA:
Can you give a brief bio on Carnegie, where he came from, where his family was from, how many kids he had?
Peter Krass: Carnegie came from Scotland -- the family emigrated in 1848 to escape poverty and settled just outside Pittsburgh. He made his first fortune in selling bonds, which financed his entry into steel.
He had one daughter of his own when he was in his 60s -- he didn't marry until he was 52 years old. There are still some ancestors in Scotland and the U.S.
Southport , Conn.:
Carnegie seems to have been consumed with his relationships with both his mother and his business. Did he ever stray from these relationships (like Jack Welch) and if so, at what stage in his life?
Peter Krass: Carnegie embodied Victorian sensibilities -- he was a prude. He even promised his mother he wouldn't marry until after she died. She died in 1886, he married the next April. No affairs on record.
Carnegie was consumed with business, too, but he always took lengthy vacations to better himself, to make himself more wordly. He took a trip around the world in 1878-9 that was quite an achievement for that time.
When he retired in 1901, at age 64, he severed all business ties and dedicated himself to philanthropy. While Jack Welch may be giving away his money, it would be refreshing to see some of today's business leaders step up like Carnegie did when it comes to public service -- to wholly dedicate themselves to charity and uplifting mankind.
Harrisburg, Pa.:
Does your book cover the Homestead strike? If so, have you found any new information on the events of this strike?
Peter Krass: I do cover Homestead and offer some new insights. First off, contrary to legend, Carnegie was not hiding in Scotland -- perhaps more condemning, he actually helped direct the campaign against the union right up until July 4 -- violence struck on July 6. This is based on letters not available to prior Carnegie biographers.
Also, letters that have come to light in the last few years show that Frick and Carnegie were very unsure of themselves when it came to dealing with Homestead which only compounded problems.
Consider: the Homestead men struck over wage cuts but only 300 some men of almost 4,000 were effected. Why did all the other workers join the fight then? For the answer you'll need to read the book.
Virginia:
A rather funny question for you .. I lived in Pittsburgh for a few years, and folks there pronounced his name car-NEG-ee whereas most other places I know pronounce it more along the lines of car-nuh-gee. The answer I got from those in Pittsburgh was that's how he said he name "before he moved to New York and went high class". So rather off the wall, but did you encounter any of this in your research ?
Peter Krass: His boyhood nickname was NAIG so it is CarNEgie. He never changed the pronunciation of his name to go high class.
Mt. Lebanon, Pa.:
Did Carnegie do anything with his life once he permanently moved back to Scotland? If so, what? And what happened to his property at his death? Thanks much from the South Hills.
Peter Krass: In retirement Carnegie spent the summers in Scotland at Skibo Castle. Skibo is now a private club called the Carnegie Club.
As I mentioned earlier, in retirement Carnegie dedicated his life to philanthropy.
Palm Springs, Calif.:
Why did Andrew Carnegie give so much money to build and fund libaries? Why was that such a hot button for him versus many other potential charitable causes?
Peter Krass: Libraries were Carnegie's cathedrals. He felt building libraries would best uplift humanity. As a boy in Pittsburgh Carnegie would often got to a local workingman's library to teach himself about history, etc.
Also, his father had built a small library back in Scotland before they emmigrated, so building libraries was a way for Carnegie to honor his father, who died in his early 50s.
Boston, Mass.:
Did Andrew Carnegie have a clear understanding how hard life was for his workers or was he insulated from that reality?
Peter Krass: I'm afraid Carnegie was insulated from his workers' hard life. He was an absentee owner because he lived in New York while the business was in Pittsburgh.
He also subscribed to the survival of the fittest doctrine and considered conditions in the U.S. to be natural -- that was life. If his workers couldn't lift themselves up like he had, too bad.
Boca Raton, Fla.:
Did Andrew Carnegie enjoy his life in the end and feel fulfilled..or was he the typical miserable old rich guy who had no friends or family who really cared about him?
Peter Krass: He was not miserable in old age although Homestead haunted him until his death. Carnegie had quite a few friends in politics and in literary circles and he did many kind things for them that never made it in the newspapers. If you read CARNEGIE, check out his relationship with Lord Acton and how he saved Lord Acton's personal library.
washingtonpost.com:
Peter, when you started research on your book, how did you get access to Carnegie's personal letters that previous biographers did not have access to?
Peter Krass: It's an interesting story, for a biographer anyway. The Frick family has been fighting over Henry Clay Frick's (Frick was a prominent partner of Carnegie) personal papers -- where to store them etc. Because of this quibbling, for many years the letters were not available. Then there was a window in the 1990s and a British scholar, Kenneth Warren, got hold of them. When I was working on Carnegie the window had closed, but at least I could read Warren's work and combine it with what I had.
Also, today, with electronic databases, I was able to do a much more thorough search than Joseph Frazier Wall, whose book came out in 1970. I found letters related to Carnegie that allowed me to create a fuller picture of him.
Maryland:
Can you tell us about Carnegie and music and how Carnegie Hall was founded?
Peter Krass: Carnegie loved music. He gave thousands of organs to churches to make the sermons less painful, he said. Music halls were also toward the top of his list for philanthropic giving -- again, to uplift the masses. So Carnegie Hall is a natural. Incidently, originally it was simply called the Husic Hall -- Carnegie didn't want his name attached to it. The hall's trustees put his name on it to attract attention.
Washington, D.C. :
Why was Carnegie "troubled?"
Peter Krass: Carnegie's family in Scotland were radicals fighting for the right to vote, the right to own land, for better working conditions and higher wages. Then Carnegie comes to the U.S. and forsakes his liberal past to embrace capitalism. So there was this liberal labor side and this republican capitalist side of him that were always in conflict.
While he would never admit it, his philanthropy was a way to reconcile the two sides.
Vienna, Va.:
The intro says that your grandfather worked in a Carnegie steel mill. Is that one of the reasons why you decided to write about Carnegie? Does your grandfather remember what Carnegie was like?
Are you a business writer?
Peter Krass: My great grandfather worked at a Carnegie mill, but I didn't know it until after I started the project and my aunt told me. My great grandfather died in 1931, so I haven't had the pleasure of speaking with him about Carnegie, but I can tell you he lived a hard life and was a hard drinker to escape the pain.
I have done a lot of business writing, but CARNEGIE is a full biography that covers all aspects of his life.
New York, N.Y.:
For a guy who worked so hard to make his money and treated people so poorly in the process of accumulating it, why did he just suddenly start giving it all away? Was that how it happened..or was he philanthropic even in his early years...but just didnt get much notice.
Peter Krass: In 1889 Carnegie wrote an essay entitled "The Gospel of Wealth" in which he outlined his template for giving. He wrote that the man who dies rich dies disgraced and that the wealthy should be hands-on in giving away their money.
He actually started slow in giving away his money -- he gave baths to his hometown of Dunfermline in the 1870s, then two big libraries (one to Dunfermline, one to Braddock, PA) in the 1880s. Not until after the 1889 essay did he pick up the pace and, after his retirement in 1901, he really accelerated his giving.
When he sold out to J.P. Morgan for an astounding $480 million in 1901, he suddenly had the money to give away in huge sums.
Demarest, N.J.:
We all know about Carnegie libraries, but beyond them, how much of a philanthropist was Andrew Carnegie? What was the kernel of thought behind his philanthropy? Was he like Peter Cooper, the New York millionaire who said, "My wealth is the product of multitudes" and felt it his duty to give much of it back to the poor and working class (Cooper founded Cooper Union)? Or was he more like John D. Rockefeller, who -- unlike his children -- seemed to see philanthropy as a form of public relations. (Giving out dimes to needy children was big bang for the buck.)
Peter Krass: Peter Cooper was one of Carnegie's models and he did adopt some of Cooper's beliefs.
Carnegie considered himself a trustee of civilization -- the proof being that he had accumulated so much money. Again, it was the survival of the fittest doctrine coming into play. He he had the most money, he was the most fit -- including the most fit to dispense his money and advise educators on how to educate and politicians on how to run the country, etc.
Considering Rockefeller gave away $500 million but bequeathed $500 million to his kids, Carnegie would have considered Rockefeller a disgrace. Remember Carnegie's words: the man who dies rich dies disgraced.
Did you know Rockefeller was a virtual recluse from the 1870s on? Not like Carnegie who relished center stage.
Somewhere, USA:
Did you travel a lot for the book? What did your family think?
Peter Krass: I spent a good deal of time in Pittsburgh, Washington, D.C., and New York City, where Carnegie's personal papers are) as well as a brief trip to Scotland to visit his hometwon and his Skibo castle. Over two years I was away from the family for a total of 5 or so weeks -- not bad. It made us all happier to see each other in the end. A writer who works in the house (like me) can be a problem, especially when he's cranky and a deadline is approaching.
Washington, DC:
What do you believe is the key to success?
Peter Krass: The key to success is single-minded focus and throwing all your efforts into one endeavor. Don't scatter your resources Carnegie would say.
Peter Krass: Thanks for tuning in and I've enjoyed it. Get a copy of CARNEGIE! Let me know what you think! Take care, Peter
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