America At War:
Detainee Treatment
With Vienna Colucci
Program Director
Amnesty International USA Program on International Law
Thursday, Jan. 24, 2002; 3 p.m. EST

European governments and human rights groups have escalated criticism of U.S. detention policy after the Pentagon released photos of al Qaeda and Taliban prisoners, showing them blindfolded, manacled and on their knees. Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld Tuesday defended security procedures used at the U.S. military facility Cuba, saying, "The treatment of the detainees in Guantanamo Bay is proper, it's humane, it's appropriate, and it is fully consistent with international conventions."

Vienna Colucci, director of the Amnesty International Program on International Law, was online Thursday, Jan. 24 at 3 p.m. EST, to discuss her organization's request for access to the Guantanamo Bay facility in order to assure prisoners are granted access to lawyers and human rights monitors to guarantee that their rights are fully respected.

A transcript follows.

Editor's Note: Washingtonpost.com moderators retain editorial control over Live Online discussions and choose the most relevant questions for guests and hosts; guests and hosts can decline to answer questions.

Washington, D.C.: This may not be so much of a question but rather a statement. When I hear about this controversy it infuriates me. These people are in league with those that murdered thousands Americans. I do not care if they are manacled or uncomfortable knowing that we have suffered such loss. I was lucky enough not to lose anyone in my family or circle of friends, but know several who did.
I more concerned about our widows, widowers and orphans here and in New York City.

Vienna Colucci: Amnesty International members and staff feel the deepest sympathy for the victims of the September 11 attacks. We consider the attacks to be a massive violation of human rights. It's precisely our concern for the victims -- and that there not be no more victims of such acts in the future -- that motivates our call for those responsible to be brought to justice. These sentiments are wholly consistent with our efforts to affirm the basic dignity of all human beings, which is inextricably linked to the principles of an open and just society. And to affirm that dignity is to recognize that all people have a right to a fair trial and to not be subjected to degrading and inhuman treatment.

Ft. Lewis, Wash.: What is a reasonable amount of time for the Bush Administration to make a determination if the Taliban detainees are war criminals or POW's?

Are there indications that they have no plans to catagorize any as POW's?

Vienna Colucci: Neither the Secretary of Defense nor any other administration official has the authority to determine POW status. This determination should be made by an independent US court. According to Article 5 of the Third Geneva Convention, should any doubt arise as to the status of those taken into custody, such persons should be afforded the rights of POWs until their status has been determined by a competent tribunal.

Tucson, Ariz.: I know all the focus is on the men detained in Cuba, but what is Amnesty International doing to ensure the rights of Afghan women? There are certainly more women effected and they have not in any way been designated combatants. The oppression of women in that country is long standing and there is reason to believe that the current government is not totally committed to equal treatment of women. Women are routinely abused and murdered even today.

Vienna Colucci: Amnesty International has been concerned about the plight of women in Afghanistan for some time. Central to our recommendations for the rebuilding of Afghanistan is the principle of non-discrimination: women’s fundamental rights should be protected, including their rights to freedom of movement, expression, association, education, employment, and health. The creation of government institutions should be based on broad consultation within Afghan society, with particular attention paid to the participation of women and religious minorities, who because of systematic discrimination, were marginalized in the past. The past human rights record of those considered for leadership positions should be taken into account.

Plano, Tex.: As I read the rules on Prisoners of War, one thing stands out clearly, it's that ANYONE captured in a war zone cannot be classified as anything other than a non-combatant and released unless they are classified as POWs or unlawful combatants by a Duly Qualified Tribunal of Military Officers. The treatment of people up to the classification point is required to meet or exceed in quality the treatment required for POWs. It also seems pretty clear to hold people without holding the hearing becomes a War Crime after an unclear amount of time. Regardless of the conditions at Camp X-Ray, it appears that Rumsfield and Bush are actually risking War Crime charges if they don't hurry up and hold these hearings. Do you agree?

Vienna Colucci: Subjecting prisoners to inhuman treatment and denying them a fair trial would constitute grave breaches of the Geneva Conventions. So any allegations of such practices merit concern and investigation.

St. Louis, Mo. : First, I want to thank you for the important work Amensty is doing by helping to protect the basic human rights of those being detained in Gantanamo Bay. My question is, has Amnesty gotten any reply from the U.S. government regarding your request to visit the facilities?

Vienna Colucci: Thank you. I believe that we have not yet received a reply to our request to visit the facilities.

Arlington, Va.: I don't think that anyone (bigots aside) wants to see prisoners tortured or abused or deprived of human rights. But what exactly is the problem with the current situation that the prisoners are in? What is your complaint? Is there no difference between prisoners of war and how we handle criminals? And, isn't it ironic that while in custody of the U.S. they have more rights than when they were living in Afghanistan?

Vienna Colucci: Whatever conditions the prisoners were, or would have been, subjected to in Afghanistan has no bearing on, and does not lessen, the United States' obligations under international law. Imagine what would happen if all countries used others' noncompliance as justification for not respecting the rule of law.

As to our concerns: Amnesty International is concerned by the United State's refusal to adhere to Article 5 of the Third Geneva Convention, which requires that, where there is a question as to prisoners' status, they should be treated as POWs until suchtime as a competent tribunal determines otherwise. We're concerned about reports that the prisoners do not have access to lawyers. We're concerned that they may face trial before the proposed military commissions, which as described in President Bush's military order, would violate internationally recognized standards for a fair trial. Moreover, we're concerned about alleged ill-treatment during transfer such as hooding and other forms of sensory deprivation, and that the prisoners are housed in small cages exposed to the elements.

Charleston, S.C.: How would your organization specifically recommend that high risk terrorist prisoners be handled, in a manner consistant with security and safety of U.S. military guards?

Vienna Colucci: We would expect the US, as we would any other government, to use as guidelines the standards set out in internationally recognized treaties such at the Geneva Conventions, the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, and the Convention Against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment. In addition, guidelines are found in non-treaty standards which, while they don’t technically have the legal power of treaties, have been negotiated by governments over many years and have been adopted by political bodies such as the UN General Assembly and are therefore often considered binding. Such standards include the UN Body of Principles for the Protection of All Persons under Any Form of Detention or Imprisonment, the Standard Minimum Rules for the Treatment of Prisoners, and the Principles of Medical Ethics.

Washington, D.C.: Who is responsible for enforcing the Geneva Conventions?

Vienna Colucci: States party to the Convention are responsible for adhering to its provisions. The International Committee of the Red Cross is considered the promoter and guardian of the Conventions -- its mandate is to encourage compliance.

For Charleston, S.C. and Vienna: Can you be specific about the circumstances for the detainees? Describe the "right" way to design a holding cell.

Vienna Colucci: It is not our role to design a holding cell. Our role is to promote respect for human rights and adherence to international and humanitarian law.

Bethesda, Md.: You folks are alleging all sorts of "abuses," yet you have no evidence of such abuses. Aren't you tired of ending up with egg on your face yet? You said there were "thousands" of people being held without charges filed against them but when the facts came out, it turned out that all the people being held were either charged with crimes or subject to deportation.

If you've got evidence of "abuse" of the detainees, show it. Otherwise, you'll excuse me if I'm skeptical of your allegations, especially in light of the fact that these are people who have sworn that they will kill their guards if they get the chance.

Vienna Colucci: You're refering to two different situations. In the first case, we were correct regarding the number of people initially taken into custody.

As to the second case, we're not simply making up allegations -- our concerns are based on statements and the photograph released by the United States Governent, and reports in the press. We have requested access in order to further evaluate the situation. But I think it's important to point out that it's the obligation of the United States government to demonstrate that it is in compliance with the Geneva Convention.

Bethesda, Md.: I genuinely appreciate your worldwide efforts and the goals you have to protect human rights. I do feel though that this is not the time to be giving America such a hard time. We have suffered a great deal and still live with continued threat from al Queda and its network. Those same cells were used for Haitian detainees during the Clinton Administration. What did Amnesty International say at that time regarding the holding of Haitians in outdoor cells?

Vienna Colucci: It is in times of crisis like these that human rights come must under threat, so now more than ever, it is important to keep the spotlight on them. Human rights and civil rights groups have a crucial role to play in ensuring that basic human rights standards are upheld. These are the principles on which our democracy is based.

Re the Haitains held during the Clinton Administration, we did express concern about conditions of detention.

Vienna Colucci: My time is up. I regret that I wasn't able to answer all of your questions.

I want to thank the Washington Post for giving us the opportunity to chat with you. And I want to thank all who took the time to send questions in. Following are some resources that examine these questions in further detail:

The Crimes of War Project: September 11th and its Aftermath
http://www.crimesofwar.org/

Interights: Responding to September 11: The Framework of International Law
http://www.interights.org/

American Society of International Law: Insights on the Terrorist Attacks of September 11
http://www.asil.org/insights.htm

The United States Institute of Peace: Options for Prosecuting International Terrorists
http://www.usip.org/

JURIST, University of Pittsburgh School of Law: Terrorism Law and Policy
http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/terrorism/terrorism3.htm

   |      |