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Post Magazine
This Week:
From Russia With Love
With David A. Vise
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, Jan. 11, 2002; 1 p.m. EST

FBI agent Robert Hanssen was a frustrated loner isolated from co-workers, family and friends. Finally he found someone to appreciate his mind and talents: the nice folks from the KGB. What followed was a betrayal of his country that was unimaginable -- and a betrayal of his wife that was unspeakable.

David Vise, whose article "Birth of a Traitor" appeared in Sunday's Washington Post Magazine, was online Friday, Jan. 11 at 1 p.m. EST, to continue a discussion about the article and the Hanssen case. He previously discussed the article on Monday, Jan. 7.

Pulitzer Prize-winning Vise covers the Justice Department and the FBI for The Post. He is the author of "The Bureau and the Mole," recently published by Atlantic Monthly Press, hit number five on the Amazon.com best seller list in its first week of release.

A transcript follows.

Editor's Note: Washingtonpost.com moderators retain editorial control over Live Online discussions and choose the most relevant questions for guests and hosts; guests and hosts can decline to answer questions.

No Pictures: Why were there no recent photos of Hanssen other than the FBI official photo published in the news media?

David A. Vise: The Bureau and The Mole has numerous photos of Robert Hanssen, as well as a recent photo of his wife, Bonnie. The news media only had access to the single FBI photo

washingtonpost.com: The discussion will begin at 1 p.m. EST.

Bethesda, Md.: What drives a person to betray his or her own country? Where does the real problem lie? Is it that the U.S. Government pays its military and civilian workers a very low salary? Or, is it that the punishment for those apprehended is not severe enough?

David A. Vise: Every case of betrayal is different but there is acronym---MICE--to describe the main reasons people spy. It stands for Money, Ideology, Compromise (Blackmail) and Ego. In the case of Robert Hanssen and The Bureau and The Mole, money played a minor role and ego was the driving force.

Bethesda, Md.: Great series. What comment has the perverted friend/houseguest Bob enlisted in his sick fantasy made? Has he apologized to Bonnie and the family? Did he know about Bob's spying? What is he saying about his part in this sad story?

David A. Vise: Hanssen's lifelong friend Jack Hoschouer has apologized to Bonnie for watching her via closed circuit video as she had sex with her husband the master spy.
Hoschouer, like Bonnie, did not know about the espionage.

Greensboro, N.C.: I read your book and it was outstanding.
Even though the FBI discounts the fact that Hanssen's information was not directly responsible for Sept. 11, I believe some of Hassen's information must have been a help to the terrorists. I hope that you will address the connection.

David A. Vise: Hanssen spied for the Russians and the only known information to have made its way to Osama bin Laden is a software program which, according to U.S. intelligence, a Russian sold for $2 million to Al Queda. Bin Laden was able to use this to help evade detection by the U.S., intelligence sources say. After September 11, an FBI agent called Bonnie Hanssen, who feared her husband would be blamed for the atrocities that day, and told her the Bureau would not hold him responsible.

Cincinnati, Ohio: How has this affected the lives of the Hanssen children? Are they at their previous school? Do Bonnie and the kids still go to the same church and are they still part of Opus Dei?

David A. Vise: The Hanssen family is dealing with this as well as any family could but it has created enormous strain and, at times, alienation as family members react differently to Hanssen's spying and sordid sexual life. They have one child in high school who still attends the same all-girls Opus Dei school in Northern Virginia, where Bonnie Hanssen teaches religion and ethics. All of the other children are in college or older. Bonnie is deeply religious, devoted to Opus Dei, and prays for her husband daily.

Chevy Chase, Md.: Mr. Vise,

I don't at all approve of what Mr. Hanssen did, or his lifestyle, but his crimes have made me consider the ethics of spying. For instance, we despise Hanssen for being a traitor, but our government encourages citizens from other countries to turn traitor. Perhaps it's excusible if the country is an adversary, but does the CIA or FBI make that distinction?

Has researching this story made you consider these issues at all? Also, what do you think about the burrowing under the Russian diplomatic compound?

David A. Vise: Good points. But in this case, remember that Hanssen was not recruited by the Russians to spy---he volunteered and sold more damaging information than any spy in FBI history.
Countries spy on their adversaries and allies and there is a code among nations re: the treatment of spies. For example, if we catch Russians spying in the U.S., they are allowed to return to Moscow. The Russians return the favor.

New York, N.Y.: Does Jack Houschauer have anything to do with Hanssen anymore?

David A. Vise: Hanssen is in prison with limited visitation rights. Jack Hoschouer remains his friend. They have been friends since childhood. Even though you learn in The Bureau and The Mole how Hanssen even sugg. to the KGB that they try to recruit Hoschouer as a spy, he remains a friend.

Virginia: An actor to play Hanssen is
Chazz Palminteri

David A. Vise: Thanks for the suggestion. Since The Bureau and The Mole is going to be made into a motion picture by Jerry Bruckheimer Films and Disney Touchstone Pictures, I am interested in suggs. re: actors to play Hanssen, FBI Director Louis Freeh and Bonnie Hanssen.

Crystal City, Va.: Mr. Vise: No question, just a comment. I've read your book, "The Bureau and the Mole." Thoroughly enjoyed it, and highly recommend it! Can't wait for the movie. I would like to "nominate" Donald Sutherland and/or John Lithgow for leading roles.

Thanks!

David A. Vise: I'm glad you enjoyed The Bureau and the Mole and I would be interested in your thoughts about the web site I created, www.bureauandthemole.com. Also, thanks for the suggs. for actors.

David A. Vise: Thanks for all the excellent suggestions.

washingtonpost.com: David, in Monday's discussion you solicited suggestions for actors to portray Hannsen and the other players in the film version of your book. Here are the suggestions that have arrived so far:

Washington, D.C.: For the movie...
Hanssen: Russell Crowe
Freeh: Kevin Spacey

Fairfax, Va.: Regarding movie stars, I'm thinking:
Russel Crowe as Hanssen. Or Kevin Spacey.
Kevin Pollack as Freeh.

Fairfax, Va.: How about Holly Hunter to play Bonnie Hanssen? She even looks like her a bit.

Washington, D.C.: To play Hanssen in the movie--John Malkovich. No, he doesn't look anything like him, but I think he has the right persona.

Washington, D.C.: Movie Version:
Robert Hanssen: Harrison Ford
Louie Freeh: Kevin Spacey

Fairfax, Va.: Russell Crowe to play Hanssen!

Washington, D.C.: Nicolas Cage for Hanssen in the movie

David A. Vise: Thanks for the excellent suggestions.

Virginia: Is it illegal for the CIA Counterintelligence Center to work domestic? Since they must work overseas, who can watch non-government U.S. citizens?

David A. Vise: The CIA is not legally permitted to spy domestically. The FBI does domestic counterintelligence work and can watch non-govt. U.S. citizens. Its powers have been expanded after 9/11.

New York, N.Y.: Does Allenwood, where Hanssen is expected to serve his sentence permit conjugal visits for lifers?

David A. Vise: I don't know, but I think the FBI is more concerned about keeping Hanssen away from computers than his wife. His plea bargain includes a lifetime ban on using computers without FBI permission and monitoring.

Syosset, N.Y.: By opening an FBI office in Moscow, Louis Freeh wanted to help estabilish "a new world order." After the Sept. 11 attack, President Bush also wanted to "establish a new world order." Isn't there duplicity to want to continue recruiting agents in Russia if there is this "new world order?" Your comments please.

David A. Vise: The FBI can simultaneously work with the Russian police to solve crimes, while the CIA and Russia's intelligence agency carry out espionage missions. It seems strange, I know, but this is the reality.

Arlington, Va.: Your story painted Hanssen's father as an abusive figure who may have so terribly fractured his boy's ego that the son's later bizarre emotional makeup almost makes sense. How convenient that he is not around to defend himself. But what about the mother? As the stepfather of a teenager, I feel the responsibility at times to balance what I do see as his mother's coddling. Granted, some of the actions you describe (e.g., bribing the driver's ed instructor) sound beyond the pale, but is it possible that both parents contributed to the "birth" of this spy? The utter disrespect for women that Hanssen seems to have demonstrated throughout his life strikes me more as evidence of a momma's boy who never grew up than of the victim of an abusive father.

David A. Vise: Thanks for sharing your interesting analysis.

FBI Director Freeh: Did FBI Director Louis Freeh ever take a polygraph test while Director of the FBI?

David A. Vise: While Robert Hanssen never took a polygraph in his 25 years at the FBI, FBI Director Louis Freeh led the way by taking a polygraph in the aftermath of the disclosure of the Hanssen case in Feb. 2001, and the Bureau's efforts to institute reforms.

Syosset, N.Y.: With the many failed investigations that dogged the FBI, do you believe that Louis Freeh was the "wrong" person to head up the FBI even though he was remarkable in his pursuits of criminals?

David A. Vise: Louis Freeh restored the FBI's reputation and the Bureau flourished during most of his tenure, with the Hanssen debacle and the Wen Ho Lee case as exceptions. When he took the helm, the FBI was in a state of disarray and agents and the public lacked confidence in the integrity of leadership. Freeh restored that reputation for honesty at the top and was successful in making the Bureau a global crime-fighting agency. Freeh often was referred to as the "presidentially appointed case agent" because he excelled at working cases and was better at that than reforming the bureaucracy.

Hicksville, N.Y.: Does the FBI have a "C5" unit like the Chicago Police force to spy on its agents?

David A. Vise: The FBI does have ways of watching its agents but they are not like the way C5 rooted out corrupt cops from the Chicago police force. The FBI is currently reviewing the internal checks and procedures it needs in place to do a better job of policing itself.

New York, N.Y.: Following up on the computer ban: Does this mean he's forbidden a modem without FBI oversight?

David A. Vise: Essentially, he is forbidden a modem or whatever comparable technology is developed without federal oversight. The govt wanted a total ban on his use of computers but Hanssen fought hard in the plea bargain for access and his attorney, Plato Cachers, argued that as modes of communication change, it would be wrong to put a lifetime ban on his use of any specific technology.

Alexandria, Va.: Submitting early.

What reason is there to believe that Hanssen is leveling with the government in his debriefing? He may still think he is smart enough to have his cake and eat it too -- fool the government, cheat the hangman (or the needle man), and still get a share of his pension for his wife (who, based on your protrayal, makes me fwow up, as Dorothy Parker said of Pooh). How confident are you, personally, that he can't outsmart the debriefers?

David A. Vise:
The risk of trying to outsmart the debriefers is quite high: Hanssen would face the death penalty if caught and his wife would lose the survivor's portion of his pension, or $40,000 a year. He is devilishly clever but he is being polygraphed regularly.
At the same time, you have asked an excellent question that may not be answerable due to the "unknown unknown" that Hanssen may or may not disclose.

Syosset, N.Y.: What have you left out of your book that you wish you could have included up to this point?

David A. Vise: At this point, I have not left anything out of The Bureau and The Mole that I wish I would have included. However, I have added material on www.bureauandthemole.com that provides insight, context and information that would not have necc. worked well in the book but complements it for those interested.

Crystal City, Va.: Mr. Vise: Is your web site in the beginning stages? I've accessed it, but am unable to send you a message/or comment. Are you planning to be in the Northern Virginia area for a book signing? Thank you.

David A. Vise: The web site is up and running and taking questions. Go to www.bureauandthemole.com and click on Talk Back. I will post new answers on the web site every Monday.
I will be at Barnes and Noble's new store in Arlington on Clarendon Blvd. on Jan. 22 for a book signing at 7:30 p.m.

New York, N.Y.: The New York Times wrote up a post mortem on the plea bargain last summer. It reported that Hanssen said (about saving him from the death penalty) that he was not as worried about it as his lawyers were. I remember it because I found that really strange. Do you think it's just bravado or that he doesn't really place much of a value on his own life?

David A. Vise: I think lawyers are paid to be professional worriers and that the risk of the death penalty in this case, given the stance on the issue of President Bush and Attorney General Ashcroft, was very real.
Hanssen, for his part, knew that nobody in this country has been put to death for espionage since the Rosenbergs.

Washington, D.C.: Hello,

Did I hear correctly that someone is in the process of bringing a lawsuit against you, or is that the psychiatrist? Thanks!

David A. Vise: Bonnie Hanssen is considering a lawsuit against Dr. Alan Salerian, the psychiatrist was hired and fired by Robert Hanssen's lawyer, Plato Cacheris. Salerian went public with his view that Hanssen was mentally ill and should plead insanity. He also said Hanssen gave him permission to do so.
Lawyers for Bonnie Hanssen say permission, under the law, must be in writing, and that Robert Hanssen never granted it to Salerian in the first place.

Blue Ash, Ohio How long did it take to research "The Bureau and The Mole?" Was it hard to get this kind of in-depth, secretive information? Were you ever scared while collecting the background information you needed? What an amazing story.

David A. Vise: The story broke in The Washington Post in February 2001. I began working full-time on The Bureau and The Mole in May and turned in the manuscript for the book in September. I worked round-the-clock and had two outstanding assistants, Mark Malseed and Matt Obernauer, without whom I could not have reported and written this book as well or as swiftly.
It was very hard to get inside information about Hanssen's family life and the scope of his betrayals, but I was never afraid.
Finally, I agree with your view that The Bureau and The Mole is an amazing story.

Hicksville, N.Y.: How is Hanssen's mother Vivian taking this shock in her life?

David A. Vise: Hanssen's mother Vivian, who lives in Florida, is dealing with this remarkably well. But any mother whose son turns out to be a spy suffers tremendously. She is in her 90s, active on the internet and very clear-headed. She was shocked and stunned when the revelations about her son's espionage were disclosed.

Virginia: If Hanssen is going to be in jail for the rest of his life, isn't the question of whether he is allowed to use computers somewhat moot? Or are inmates regularly allowed computer/Internet access?

David A. Vise: It is not a moot question. Increasingly, inmates have access to computers.

Washington, D.C.: I have a concern about something that was said in Monday's session, which I hope you'll post to correct any misconceptions. Someone wrote in saying, "I was frankly horrified to read in your article that Hansen apparently thought that by going to Confession regularly, he was keeping himself in a state of grace (which Catholics understand to mean "ready to enter Heaven and meet God"), despite the fact that he had caused the deaths of at least two Soviet double-agents." The writer cast this as erroneous according to the Church, and you agreed with his comment. Just to clarify, Catholic teaching IS indeed that if you make a good Confession (meaning you confess all your sins to the best of your recollection and have true contrition for them) then you ARE in a state of grace. However, the important thing to note is that this does NOT mean you necessarily go straight to Heaven when you die; you may still have temporal punishment due for the sins you committed, even if you had a sacramental confession. (This is what Purgatory is for.) So the person who wrote this misunderstood. Hanssen did the right thing by confessing his sins regularly -- it may have spared him eternal punishment, but that does not mean that he won't have to answer to God for his actions.

David A. Vise: Thank you for sharing your perspective and insight.

Crofton, Md.: Thanks for the chats! They are great. Do you know if Hanssen has read The Bureau and the Mole? If so, what his thoughts were?

David A. Vise: Good question. Unfortunately, I am not at liberty to answer whether Hanssen has read The Bureau and The Mole.

More movie suggestions...: Billy Bob Thornton as Hanssen.

David A. Vise: Keep 'em coming; thanks for the sugg.

Washington, D.C.: Hi,

Sorry, I haven't had a chance to read the book yet, but is there/has there been a conclusion as to whether Hanssen had sex with the stripper he bestowed all those gifts/money on? Did you get a chance to speak with her?
Thanks.

David A. Vise: The Bureau and The Mole states that Hanssen has told a number of people he had sex with the stripper while on a trip they took to Hong Kong.
I did get to talk to the stripper.

Columbia, Md.: Observations: Your article was brilliant. You answered many of the questions I had regarding Hansson's family and other activities. We do grow in the way we are shaped. We are shaped by parents who are doing the best they can. Although, I did note that Hansson's mother did have self-questions regarding her husband's behavior to their child. No reinforcement so she demurred. His wife's instinct's were perfect but she also demurred. His brother-in-laws instincts, again, were perfect and the FBI demurred.

David A. Vise: I'm glad you enjoyed the excerpt from The Bureau and The Mole in last Sunday's Washington Post magazine. And thanks for sharing your thoughts.

Mt. Orab, Ohio: Did you view any of the Hannsson bedroom tapes to verify that they in fact do exist?

David A. Vise: Hanssen placed a secret closed circuit video camera in his bedroom and allowed his friend to watch while he had sex with his wife, Bonnie. He also allowed his friend to watch Bonnie fix her hair while naked in the morning on a television that could be used to make tapes, Hanssen wrote.
The Bureau and The Mole has three appendices: The Betrayals of a Spy, the E-mails of a spy, and The Sexual Fantasies of a Spy. The last two were both written by Hanssen himself.

Philadelphia, Pa.: How did you reconcile writing the book while also covering Hanssen for The Post? Was there juicy stuff that you purposely held from The Post in order to save it for your book? How did you tread that line with your editors?

David A. Vise: I took a temporary book leave from The Washington Post after doing the initial Hanssen coverage for the newspaper. During that time, whenever I came across major news, I passed it along to editors. The fact that Hanssen's brother-in-law, an FBI agent himself, urged the Bureau in 1990 to probe Hanssen for espionage on behalf of Russia, is news in The Bureau and The Mole that appeared first in The Washington Post under my by-line.

Hicksville, N.Y.: Do you think Bonnie Hanssen will write her own book or appear on talk shows? Id like to hear her side of who Robert Hanssen really was.

David A. Vise: Bonnie Hanssen is a very private person. At this point, she has no plans to write her own book or appear on talk shows. She is far more interested in the welfare of her family, her devotion to religion and teaching.

FBI Office In Moscow: How can Freeh open an office of the FBI and expect cooperation from the KGB when we were recruiting agents from their ranks. It seems duplicitious to me. What is the rational for all this? As Hanssen stated "Nothing is what it seems" Are we trying to fool the American public with these displays?

David A. Vise: Actually, the Russian police and the FBI cooperate on law enforcement matters even as both countries, through other agencies, spy on one another. It is a complex, sensitive relationship for the reasons you stated.

Spy Tunnel: What was the purpose of building a spy tunnel to the Russian Embassy? Was that in retaliation for our bugged embassy in Moscow.

David A. Vise: The purpose of the spy tunnel under the Russian Embassy in Washington was to gather intelligence for the U.S. It was not a retaliatory move, per se. It was part of the on-going effort by both countries to spy on one another.
Hanssen compromised the tunnel by telling the Russians of its existence. That tunnel, and its maintenance, cost U.S. taxpayers hundreds of millions of dollars.

Washington, D.C.: In your article you state that during the later stages of the Hanssen investigation, the FBI watched everything Hanssen did while he was in FBI headquarters. But The Post has reported that Hanssen's last assignment was at the State Department. Was he watched there? Isn't it odd that the FBI would assign a espionage suspect such as Hanssen to another agency?

David A. Vise: Hanssen was transferred from the State Department post to FBI headquarters after the Bureau began investigating him for espionage in the fall of 2000. The FBI did not know Hanssen was a spy when he was assigned initially to the State Department.

Hanssen's Mistakes: What mistakes did Hanssen make besides being caught red-handed by the FBI? Why did the FBI want to sensationalize his capture? Why not just arrest him with the evidence they had.

David A. Vise: The FBI did not sensationalize Hanssen's arrest. They had no case unless they caught him red-handed. All they would have had was circumstantial evidence and no witnesses to testify against him, since the Russians certainly were not going to do so and Hanssen cleverly concealed his identity from Moscow.
Hanssen was a master spy who made very few errors or he would never have avoided detection for more than 20 years. His biggest mistake was not wearing clothes when he handled the black garbage bags he used to plant intelligence for the Russians. Without his fingerprints on a black garbage bag the CIA got from Moscow, the FBI might still be involved in the mole hunt.

Vienna, Va.: Your Post articles on this are fascinating. I have not yet read your book, but I plan to do so. I appreciate your appearing online several times to answer questions.

In the last session, you said that Dr. Salerian "broadcasted" his diagnosis of Hanssen because he believed strongly that Hanssen should go to trial and plead insanity, rather than cutting a deal for life in prison. Did any other experts share this view? Do you think an insanity defense could have been successful based on a "compartmentalization" theory? And does this relate at all psychologically to a "split personality" disorder?

David A. Vise: Most legal experts I have spoken to do not believe Hanssen could have waged a successful insanity defense. Compartmentalization and split personality disorder are different, although in lay terms, they certaintly appear related.
I'm glad you have enjoyed the articles and hope you enjoy The Bureau and The Mole.

Search of the House: Will the items the FBI removed from Hanssen's house be returned to his family? If not what becomes of these items now that there will be no court trial?

David A. Vise: Some items will be returned to Hanssen family. However, anything purchased with money he obtained for spying from the Russians will not be returned. Key evidence also will not be returned.

What did you leave out?: What did you leave out of your book that might be of interest to those reading your book now?

David A. Vise: Good question. I tried to put everything I regarded as important and interesting, without compromising national security, in The Bureau and The Mole. I have supplemented that now with a web site, www.bureauandthemole.com, which I intend to continually update with new revelations.

Washington, D.C.: You mentioned that Robert Hanssen never took a polygraph test during his employment at the FBI. Do you think had he, they would have been able to ferret out Hanssen some time ago? It seems a guy who goes through life deceiving country and family would be able to breeze through a polygraph test.

David A. Vise: The answer to your question will never be known. However, I think the mere existence of polygraphs serves as a deterrent to spying.

Remorse for Betrayal: Has Hanssen shown any remorse for his treachery. If not what prevents him from feeling this for his country and family?

David A. Vise: Hanssen has apologized to his family privately. He will make a public statement about his actions at his sentencing, which had been slated for today and is now set for May.

Arlington Heights, Ill.: Did you find in your research whether most of the spys tend to be the quiet, loner type of person -- causing little attention to be paid to them and appearing to be passed over for promotion. That seems to be a general description of the spys we have caught in the past 20 years. Please comment.

David A. Vise: Spies come in all shapes and sizes. For example, admitted CIA spy Aldrich Ames led an ostentatious lifestyle once he had spare cash from spying. Hanssen was exceedingly careful not to do anything to indicate his lifestyle had changed whatsoever or to draw attention to himself.

South Bend, Ind.: Apart from the replacement of the FBI director, have there been any other leadership changes at the FBI as a result of the Hanssen case?

David A. Vise: Yes. There has been a shakeup of personnel at the FBI in the aftermath of the Hanssen case, although additional changes in personnel, practice and policy are anticipated in the future.

New York: I have read the Web site material and have the following question: What could Hanssen's wife been thinking when they could afford to send their kids to the private school on a government employee's salary? Even after she found out he was spying and then he said he would stop, didn't it strike her as funny they could still afford the school. Was Hanssen that controlling? Thanks.

David A. Vise: Robert Hanssen is incredibly manipulative and deceptive; that is what made him such a great spy. He made Bonnie Hanssen feel as though she were in control of the household while he was truly in charge. He handled the family's finances so she did not suspect anything was wrong. She is a very trusting person.

Thanks for the great questions and feel free to submit your other questions to www.bureauandthemole.com. Have a good day.

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