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Potomac Confidential
With Marc Fisher
Post Metro Columnist
Thursday, June 27, 2002; Noon EDT
Potomac Confidential fills the midday lull with discussion of the latest news and a rigorous slicing and dicing of the issues that define who we are and where we live.
In his weekly show, Washington Post Metro columnist Marc Fisher veers wildly from serious probing to silly prattle, and is open to topics local, national, personal and more.
The transcript follows.
Editor's Note: Washingtonpost.com moderators retain editorial control
over Live Online discussions and choose the most relevant questions for guests and hosts; guests and hosts can decline to answer questions.
Marc Fisher: Welcome to another star-spangled edition of Potomac Confidential. We've got that wacky court decision on the Pledge of Allegiance to comb over today, and many of you seem eager to get into that. The other columns I've offered up since we last met looked at the gut punch that Internet radio stations took last week, and the case of Justin Wolfe, the northern Virginia drug dealer who yesterday was sentenced to death for his role in a murder by hire.
Plus, there's the Supreme Court's 5-4 ruling this morning approving school vouchers, and lots of other stuff to chew over. Commence mastication!
Kingstowne, Va.:
Great column today. Reminds me of my high school English class in which we all recited the Pledge of Allegience and then proceeded to discuss Albert Camus' "The Stranger." The irony was lost on the teacher as well as a room full of 17-year-olds.
Marc Fisher: Thanks very much--The main problem with schools requiring recitation of the pledge is the coercive impact it has on those who don't share the majority view on religion. But the other big problem is that that sort of rote recitation detracts from any effort to create a classroom climate of wide open exploration of ideas.
So Help Me God...:
Isn't this the final line of the swearing in of our nation's presidents? With a hand on the bible, no less? And with witnesses during trials? Has no one complained about this?
The Pledge of Allegiance does NOT endorse religion...never has. It's a pledge to honor the flag and the country...not a higher being.
Some lawmakers need to get over themselves . . .
Marc Fisher: You're absolutely right about So Help Me God, but as several alert readers pointed out this morning, those words do NOT appear in the Constitution's version of the presidential oath. The religious bit, as in the Pledge, was added later.
Alexandria:
In your column today you see how a court could find requiring children to recite the pledge with "one nation under God" is coercive and inappropriate, but that "only a court steeped in the arrogance of political correctness would go beyond that to declare the pledge unconstitutional." How can you hold both views?
Marc Fisher: Seems to me that there is a huge difference between requiring children to recite "under God"--an act that certainly causes discomfort among those who have been brought up not to believe that we are governed by a supreme being--and allowing a historic text that teaches us much about our country's past to remain unmolested by the footsoldiers of political correctness.
It's all about the difference between children and adults. We don't require adults to say the pledge; we have the freedom to embrace it, ignore it or reject it. So why put that obligation on kids, who are far less able to make an intelligent choice.
Silver Spring, Md.:
Marc,
I didn't get your point in your column today. Do you agree with the court's ruling re: the Pledge of Allegiance or do you think it was a mistake for them to rule as they did. Personally, I disagree with them. I think, though, it needs amending by adding the words "born and unborn" at the end. i.e., "with liberty and justice for all, born and unborn".
Marc Fisher: Oh, great. Yes, let's lard it up with every issue we can think of, like some big old appropriations bill that we can recite each morning.
I agreed with the first half of the court's decision, telling the schools that they may not require recitation of the pledge. But I think the other half of the decision, calling the pledge unconstitutional because it contains the words "under God" is silliness bordering on criminal mischief. Two judges cannot change the fact that religious ideas and expressions are shot through our history and basic documents.
Washington, D.C., The Pledge:
Marc --
I was born in the '70s and during this whole pledge thing it occured to me that I learned a different pledge than what is being argued about now. The one we said in school was "and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all." I even have a picture from grade school with that as the pledge. Maybe it was because my teachers and my parents learned the pledge before 1954 and decided to stick with the original (OK I know it was changed before that to in order to include US of A). Regardless, we had no problems at my school when I was growing up. Maybe we ought to go back to the original version and stop adding everyone's own little personal touch.
Marc Fisher: I've had this debate with friends from around the country who were in school during the same years I was--it seems that in the 70s, only 20 years after "under God" was added to the pledge, there were many localities where the godless version was used in schools, perhaps to avoid the debate we're having today. Others, of course, used the 1954 version, with God.
Washington, D.C.:
Mr Fisher,
Any idea as to how the Supreme Court might come out on Pledge of Allegiance issue?
Marc Fisher: It's hard to imagine more than a couple of votes on this Supreme Court for any restriction on "under God." More likely, of course, it won't reach the Supremes, because the full 9th Circuit will send this loser of a decision to the garbage heap. But if it did reach the high court, I'd bet on a 9-0 rejection of the reasoning the Californians used yesterday.
Long Beach:
It's illegal for atheists to hold public
office in 13 states. Your opinion, kind sir?
Marc Fisher: Sounds like you've been reading too much stuff in your email. It's not illegal for atheists to hold office anywhere in this country.
Colorado Springs, Colo.:
I don't understand. Why do so many reactions to the pledge decision, including your column, talk about the pledge being ruled unconstitutional. That's ridiculous. The pledge, like a prayer, can't be unconstitutional. It's the leading of the pledge in tax-supported schools that's the problem.
Marc Fisher: So you might think. I certainly thought so. But have a look at the decision--these judges took it upon themselves to issue two rulings in their 25 pages of sometimes elegant, sometimes wacky reasoning: 1) The schools can't require recitation of the pledge because of "under God."
And 2) The pledge itself is unconstitional for the same reason.
Alexandria:
You complain of "footsoldiers of political correctness" molesting historic texts:
Who are the footsoldiers of political correctness: those who added the words "under God" in 1954, or those who wish to restore the previous wording?
Marc Fisher: Both.
Baltimore, Md.:
So if the pledge concluded, "one nation under God, Allah, Buddah, Vishnu, Yahweh, and Satan" you still wouldn't have a problem with it?
Marc Fisher: On the contrary. It is the nondenominational vagueness of phrases such as "under God" and "in God we trust" that has led courts again and again to dismiss concerns about constitutionality. The very fact that we tend to say these words without granting them much meaning has led judges to conclude that these rote recitations have no impact on establishing a state religion or making nonbelievers uncomfortable. It's a tricky argument because one man's rote recitation is someone else's extreme discomfort. But obviously a more specific kind of religious statement would be a huge problem.
Image for thought -:
A German friend was describing her feelings at seeing a room full of children, dressed in brown, mindlessly parrotting a pledge to a flag while saluting. . . Of course, it was her daughter's Brownie Troop, but she said it was very disconcerting, and made her feel strange.
Marc Fisher: I agree. Uniforms, slogans, pledges--all of that smacks of totalitarianism to me. But as they say in journalism, others disagree.
Pledge and adults:
You are wrong that adults are not required to say pledge with "God" in it. When I was getting my citizenship from INS, I was required to say pledge of allegiance with "God" in it.
Marc Fisher: Excellent point--and did that make you less desirous of becoming an American citizen?
Washington, D.C.:
Maybe saying the pledge could be added to the things done during the mandatory moment of silence.
Marc Fisher: Sure, and add the 10 Commandments, and the Golden Rule, and soon we can fill up the whole school day with bromides.
We'll come back to Pledge Day a little later in the hour, but first, some of your thoughts on other news of the day....
Beltsville, Md.:
On to the important news of the day - Juan Dixon is a Wizard!
How great is that?
The local boy stays local!
Marc Fisher: So is this the Wizards' management's way of telling us that Jordan is just about finished as a player and as the main lure for ticketbuyers? Dixon will certainly help attendance, at least at first.
Adams Morgan, Washington, D.C.:
I thought I heard something on the news about new security restrictions on the Potomac around the monuments. Any truth to that? Wouldn't that be a little, uh, extreme?
Marc Fisher: News to me. Anyone have details?
La Plata, Md.:
Marc, do you have any knowledge about what is going to happen to satellite radio? If the record companies are bent on destroying Internet radio, I guess satellite is the next target.
Marc Fisher: Satellite radio's only enemy at the moment is itself. Traditional broadcasters tend to dismiss satellite (XM and Sirius) as a non-factor, though it's important to note that the big radio companies are heavily invested in the satellite ventures. Satellite will fail if it cannot get its technical problems solved and if it doesn't make it easier and cheaper for customers to get the equipment. But the programming, according to everyone I know who has it, is fabulous, and those who have it tend to love it.
Bethesda:
Marc, I really think the apocalypse is getting close. First we learn that an asteroid missed earth by a gnat's eyelash, astronomically speaking. Then we learn that Southwest Airlines don't want no fatties on their planes and seeks to double-charge them. Then the USA almost wins the World Cup. (of soccer!) And now people are shocked, shocked!, to learn that there are people in this country who don't believe in a God called God. And oh by the way, come on down to the Mall for the Fourth, says our fearless leader; we'll have the double fencing ready for you so you'll all be trapped if someone tries to destroy America right then and there. I thought the summer was a slow news time.
Marc Fisher: Yeah, how about that notion of charging fat folks for two seats? It strikes me as one of the most courageous and smart things a major company has done in a long time. There's nothing quite like being squeezed into half of an airline seat by someone overflowing from the adjacent seat.
Fort Washington, Md.:
Marc, I've been away for a while and since coming back haven't heard any news about the Grand Ol' Oprey's building project that was supposed to be built here in PG. Did that get squashed or did they just give up?
Marc Fisher: It's still in the plans, though the Opry part of the development seems to have gone by the boards. If it is finally built, it will end up as just one more big development on the river--the theme part was just a way to sell it, I suppose.
20008:
Marc, I wonder if your stance on a soccer had changed ? If not, I am curious if you like any sport which was not invented in this country ?
Marc Fisher: Nope, no change. I did, however, go down to the German Embassy to watch the Germany-US game, and it was nothing short of deadly. Random running around on a field, players almost entirely unable to create anything resembling a play, tedium, tedium, tedium.
But that's a good question about sports of foreign origin. All of our sports stem from games played elsewhere, especially baseball and football. But I also admire sports that have never made it here in any big way, such as rugby and, even though I cannot pretend to understand it, cricket.
LeDroit Park, Washington, D.C.:
Hi Marc. I have many fond childhood memories of my Dad driving us through the two fords in Rock Creek Park, and as recently as the '70s I used to drive my motorcycle through the ford above lot 6. Why was it closed to traffic and what can be done to re-open it? I know this may be more of a Dr. Gridlock kind of question but it speaks to the quality of life in the District, which I feel is compromised by the seemingly arbitrary closing of the last remaining Rock Creek Ford. Thanks.
Marc Fisher: I plead ignorance. Tell me more.
Annandale, Va.:
It's shocking to me. No, not the Pledge controversy (which ultimately is just another example of how people think everything they don't like is unconstitutional and everything they like is constitutional), but the decision by Admiral Charles ("Chuck") Larson to switch to the Democratic party and run as Kennedy-Townsend's running mate. I attended the Academy during his first tenure there as superintendent, and I believe he is a great leader and may give the ticket some gravitas and intellectual heft it is otherwise lacking. What do you think of his (and her) choice?
Marc Fisher: Larson, a close friend of John McCain, is new to me. Our story, now on the website home page, says he's very well respected, but isn't it odd that Townsend would choose a Republican as her running mate. He just switched parties two weeks ago. I guess Ehrlich really has her running scared.
15th and L:
Marc,
Is the MD Democratic Party so bereft of qualfied people that Her Majesty has decided to choose a running mate that just became a registered Dem three days ago. Did she even think this through? And is this an indication of her decision-making style once she gets to the big chair?
Marc Fisher: Well, whatever its merits, and I simply don't know enough about Larson to judge, this certainly is an indication of Townsend's style. How else to judge a candidate other than by the big decisions she makes?
Arlington, Va.:
Regarding the removal of "under God" from the pledge of allegience--the words are not only unconstitutional, they're unAmerican. We take great pride in the freedoms of our democracy, then are willing to do away with one of them so easily. If God is important to someone, S/He should be with that person all the time. But why are we pledging allegience to a flag? We should be pledging allegience to the democratic principles and freedoms we hold so dear. Some people wind the flag around themselves so tightly it seems to cut off circulation to their brains.
Marc Fisher: Agreed. But symbols are important to people, whether they are flags or prayer books, monuments or statues. And the symbols we choose to revere tell us a great deal about ourselves as a people and nation.
I like to think that the continuing debate over the pledge is perfectly and wonderfully American, even if the words of the pledge may rile some of us.
Charlottesville, Va.:
So how exactly are all signs of religion being erased from the public landscape? That's great hyperbole but I don't see how banning prayers over the public address system at high school football games or altering the language of the Pledge even comes close to removing religion from our day to day lives. I still see churches on main street; I still can a strong sense of religion from some of the people I meet at the park or at softball games. Don't you think you went a little overboard by parrotting the cries of conservatives who are always similarly claiming that religion has been removed from the public square?
Marc Fisher: No. I agree with you that banning prayer in schools or at graduation ceremonies is right and essential, and that that sort of ban has zero impact on our status as a nation of believers. And I never said that religion is being swept out of the public square--I leave that to the religious extremists to argue. My point was that it is wrong and ahistorical to pretend that this is a strictly secular nation. Rather, it is something much prettier than that--a nation made up largely of believers who are so confident in their faith and so committed to liberal democracy that we enshrine in our law the rights of non-believers and the secular nature of our government.
Washington, D.C.:
Marc-
While I don't have so much of an opinion about the Pledge of Allegance case (I, too, haven't recited it since my last day of high school), I must take issue with what you, and others, are saying about how this just a case of political correctness or, as you put it, applying today's "fashionable" beliefs to rewrite history. Marc, we change the course of, and the writings about history, everyday. That is why you will find no racial slurs or offensive labels in history textbooks and this is also why the country eventually comes to its senses about issues like slavery and child labor - sometimes, you have to make a decision that ruffles the feathers of the norm to bring an issue up to contemporary speed.
Honestly, I don't see anything wrong with ending, in places like Birmingham and Provo, the ostracism of students whose freedom of religion allows them to acknowledge the existence of a power other than God - or, God forbid - no God at all.
Marc Fisher: Fine, let's all band together to fight the imposition of religion on schoolkids in Provo--but the way to do that is to fight against far more insidious practices than the pledge of allegiance. How about ridding the schools of teachers who lead the children in prayer? Isn't that far more important than the pledge?
You're right that history changes all the time, and sadly, we live in a time when history is being censored because of our peculiar sensitivities. But it is the height of arrogance to seek to undo history by denying the character and purpose of those who came before us. We don't need to agree with them, but we ought to figure out why they believed as they did.
Rock Creek Fords:
One is at Candy Cane City, a park just south of East West highway on Beach Drive. I, too, remember the thrill of driving through it going to Dad's softball games.
Marc Fisher: Thanks--I'll have to check it out.
Gaithersburg:
Regarding Townsend's running mate switching parties. Erlich tried to do the same thing a week or two ago, when he tried to get Nancy Grasmick to switch parties and run with him. Grasmick said no, she wanted to stay as Maryland schools superintendent and stay a democrat.
Marc Fisher: Yes, indeed, Ehrlich tried to get a Democrat to be his running mate. That's far more understandable coming from the challenger in the minority party than it is coming from the virtual incumbent in the overwhelmingly majority party.
Rockville, Md.:
Hi Marc,
So, what do you think of Doug Duncan's plan for raising taxes to pay for transportation improvements?
I'm in total agreement that SOMETHING needs to be done, but I'm a little leery when I hear they want to raise the gas tax by 10 cents A GALLON!
What I would really like to see is a breakdown of what happens with the money already being raised by all of the taxes we pay in Montgomery County. Surely, there's enough money there already.
Marc Fisher: Judging from our reporting in today's paper, it doesn't sound as if Duncan will have an easy time pushing through his entire grand plan to revamp transportation in Montgomery County. But you have to give him credit for trying to offer a comprehensive plan. The end of the Glendening era opens the floodgates for those who have long sought big new highways in MoCo, and Duncan wants to get that moving now, before the governor's race gums up the works. There are some excellent projects in the Duncan plan, and some dubious ones. That will all be thrashed out in the years ahead, and it will certainly involve tax hikes.
Fairfax, VA:
Let's see here:
Bush told the Chinese to give us back our crew and plane or else. Then he finally settled on an apology from us although he said it was not an apology in English only in Chinese.
Then Californians were screaming "help us, the cost of energy is out of control". Bush said "no way, this is a free market". Later of course we find out the market was controlled by companies like Enron.
Now Bush reacts to the 9th court ruling by saying, this will not be tolerated. Yet at the same time he is pushing a multi-religious-based welfare system that would send taxpayer dollars to Muslems, Christians, Jews, Hindus and followers of Buddah.
Is there a disconnect between what he says and what he does?
Marc Fisher: Yes, that's his job.
Arlington, VA:
Hi Marc,
I hope that you are generous enough to allow space for yet another one of us (rare) soccer fans.
Although I thought your column on soccer was rather silly, Im not writing to take issue with that I doubt if you considered this to be a burning social issue.
Id like to object to the argument adopted by fans in defense of the game that soccer has not yet caught on because it is so cerebral, a word used in a recent Post article on the subject, as if the average American is still too dense to appreciate the game properly. Excuse me? Were the millions of Koreans who crowded into town squares to watch games all rocket scientists? Are the pubs in London packed solely with grammarians and deconstructionists? I think not.
As with any game, soccer has techniques, rules, and stratagems that may not be apparent to the newcomer. But it is certainly less cerebral than, say, baseball. I know you think it a fruitless task, I think soccer fans who want to propagandize the sport should emphasize its free-flowing, non-stop, end-to-end action and stop pretending that its on a par with chess as an intellectual pursuit.
Marc Fisher: Interestingly, many of the letters I got from supporters of soccer were quick to concede the point that there's not a lot of strategy involved in a sport that is that fast-moving. They made much the same point you have, that the action--or at least movement--compensates for the relatively simple nature of the sport. That obviously attracts many people, though not many Americans.
Northern Virginia:
Mr. Marc Fischer,
I think you are wrong about the pledge of allegence. The pledge was never meant to include pledging fealty to God. Including the languge about God forces people who are Athiests, Hindus, Buddists and Pagans to choose between reciting the pledge of allegance, which should be about patriotism, and their religious beliefs. The constitution is supposed to protect minorities against the will of the majority, or as the pledge says "freedom and justice for all" not just those who believe in god. The pledge is also coercive (imagine a child not doing it). The founders of this country and writers of the constitution were far less religious than you seem to think. Some were, but many were freethinkers, and Thomas Jefferson cut out the parts of his Bible that he did not belive in.
PS The article on Internet radio was great.
Marc Fisher: I'm with you on the coercion issue, and you're right about our freethinking founders. But there were also very religious folks among the founders, and Jefferson's original draft of the Declaration did not include the famous "endowed by their Creator" phrase. That was edited in by some of those more religious folks. So we have always had this tension in this country--to our benefit, in my view.
Card Carrying:
My beef with the pledge issue is that it's so unimportant and petty. As a liberal who is very concerned about the seperation of church and state this merely hands more ammunition to the right. It seems to confirm all their worst fears that us liberals really are anti-american and anti-religion. Next we're coming after all gun owners!
Marc Fisher: Appellate judges, whatever their political leaning, have an obligation to serve as a filter. They are under no obligation to treat every issue that comes down the pike as a matter of high constitutional importance. Sometimes, the best decision is simply to say This is not important.
New Restrictions:
The restrictions are in place ONLY for the 4th of July -- closing off streets, having no anchor zones in the river.
Not extreme, makes sense.
Marc Fisher: Ah yes, those. Going to the fireworks this year will involve a certain amount of waiting in line to be searched, etc. Seems prudent, doncha think?
Springfield, Mass.:
FYI: Basketball originated in the good 'ol USA in a Springfield, Mass. YMCA courtesy of James Naismith. It wasn't derived from any foreign game.
Marc Fisher: Quite right, though there were plenty of other put-ball-in-target games around the world that may have helped inspire basketball.
Washington, D.C.:
What is up with your constant criticisms of Kathleen Kennedy Townsend? It almost seems personal with you. Or is it just women in politics in general?
Marc Fisher: Constant criticisms? Hardly. I've never spent time with Townsend, so I have no personal views of her beyond what I've read and watched of her performance as Lt. Governor. And that's a very tough position on which to base conclusions, since the job has very little in the way of responsibilities. I go into the campaign for governor with only vague impressions of either candidate; I hope to learn much more and share it with you as we go.
Washington, D.C.:
I use iTunes on my Mac to listen to
Internet radio. Last week there were
hundreds of stations from all around the
world available to me.
This week, they dropped like flies. Now
I'm left listening to, gasp, Canada,
Germany, France and other countries.
Thanks, Librarian of Congress and RIAA,
for killing off American participation in this
technology.
Marc Fisher: Sad to see that the impact has been that fast and that wideranging. This will, of course, in the long run hurt all of the radio and record industries--the antipathy toward webcasting is extremely shortsighted.
St. Mary's City, Md.:
Listening to some of the more rabid soccer opponents, the arguments sound like they were lifted from the debates over the metric system in the 1970s. Both soccer and the metric system seem to invoke concerns about America losing its identity in the world. What do you think?
Marc Fisher: Good analogy. The metric system, like soccer, has fans who are so rabid in their advocacy that you wonder whether they really doubt their cause deep down. The metric system is simply an inferior product--consider temperature, for example: the Fahrenheit system is much more finely tuned. There is a difference between 54 degrees and 57 degrees, and the Celsius system treats them as if they were the same.
Southern Maryland:
Why didn't the California court just strike the "under God" part instead of ruling the entire Pledge unconstitutional?
Marc Fisher: That's the $64,000 question. That would have been a defensible position, and the debate stemming from it would have been much more interesting.
Anyway, we're out of time for today.
Many thanks for coming along and apologies to those I couldn't squeeze in. Potomac Confidential takes next Thursday off to wave the flag and contemplate the proper wording of the pledge. Find yourselves a great parade and grill a dog. Back here in two.
washingtonpost.com:
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