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Federal Diary Live
With Stephen Barr
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, May 22, 2002; Noon EDT

Trying to qualify for a federal job? Confused by multiple and varied instructions on federal job applications?

Kathryn Kraemer Troutman, founder of the Resume Place, joins The Post's Stephen Barr, who writes the Federal Diary column, for a discussion of federal hiring issues and Bush administration plans to make changes.

Troutman is the author of the "Electronic Federal Resume Guidebook," aimed at helping applicants seeking civil service jobs in the Defense Department. Her previous book, the "Federal Resume Guidebook," provides advice on how to write a paper resume that will be accepted by government agencies.

Editor's Note: Washingtonpost.com moderators retain editorial control over Live Online discussions and choose the most relevant questions for guests and hosts; guests and hosts can decline to answer questions.

The transcript follows.

Stephen Barr: Thanks to all of you joining in this discussion today, especially our guest, Kathryn Troutman of The Resume Place, a federal job search consulting business based in Baltimore.

One of the big topics inside government today is recruitment -- of young people, mid-career professionals and technical experts -- to help respond to the war on terrorism and to create a pipeline to replace the large numbers of federal employees projected to retire over the next few years.

Kathryn, to get the ball rolling, please tell us what a person needs to know and do to apply for a job in government today. Again, thanks for sharing your time with us.

Kathryn Troutman: Good Morning Federal Job Seekers! I'm glad to be here to help de-mystify the Federal application process for you!

Yes, recruitment talk is everywhere and it's real. Yesterday a lady asked me if it was worth her while to apply for a job in government. She said, "Are they really hiring?" I said yes, for sure. It's worth every minute of your time to figure this application process out.

WHAT DOES A PERSON NEED TO KNOW AND DO TO APPLY FOR A JOB IN GOVERNMENT TODAY?

1. You need to study the directions in each vacancy announcement. They are all different. Go to HOW TO APPLY and try to understand what they are writing. That's a challenging part.

2. Be prepared with two FEDERAL resume formats - one for paper with formatting (mailing, faxxing) and the other - ELECTRONIC (no formatting). You would send this by email or post it in a Resume Builder.

3. Work on a set of KSAs (knowledge, skills and abilities statemetns) that might appear with vacancy announcements for your occupational series.

With these three application items, you could apply for anything. There are other supplemental items that you might need to prepare, but the basics are Resumes and KSAs.

You can see formats for both FEDERAL RESUMES and ELECTRONIC RESUMES in my books which are described at my website: www.resume-place.com. Kathryn

Washington, D.C.: Are KSAs more important than a resume? What is your most crucial suggestion when writing them? Thanks.

Stephen Barr: Kathryn, help me out here, too. What is a KSA and why are they important to agencies?

Kathryn Troutman: KSAs - WHAT ARE THEY?
Steve, KSAs are Knowledge Skills and Abilities statements. They are short narratives or essays about the applicant's particular knowledge, skills and abilities that will demonstrate the applicant can do a certain job. They are usually and best written with examples that demonstrate a skill. They are about 1/2 to 1 page in length for each KSA. An example is, "Ability to communicate orally." The selecting official wants an example or two of how this person communciates with employees, customers and others.

THE KSAS ARE VERY IMPORTANT. The KSAs are "rated and ranked" by the personnel staff. The hiring manager creates a scoring process - points - (called crediting plans in governmnet) for each KSA. You could maybe get 25 points for a good answer. The point system is not available to applicants. So if you answer it very well, you will get high points. They add up the points and the people who have the highest points (and who are qualified for the job), could become "highly-qualified" and go further to an interview. So they are important for rating. kt

Washington, D.C.: I recently submitted a number of applications for professional positions (mostly GS-13) at different federal agencies. The deadlines for announced positions range from a week ahead to Novemeber 2002. Do you know, in the case of summer/autumn deadlines, would they start considering my application immediately after receiving it or would start considering it only after deadline passes? Also, what is average consideration time for professional positions? Thank you!

Kathryn Troutman: ANNOUNCEMENT DEADLINES
The vacancy announcements have varying deadlines because there are two kinds of announcements:

A "real" announcement with a close deadline. This is a job that is being recruited for RIGHT NOW. A deadline of 1 week to 30 days. After the closing date they will review applications and begin the selecting process.

And the "Open Continuous" or "inventory-building" announcement which has a long-term date. These applications are put into a database and can be searched upon anytime. Whenever there is an opening, the HR recruiter could go look for candidates. These are good announcements, even with dates far away.

The AVERAGE TURNAROUND for "real" jobs (I call them this because they are current openings that we know about), can be 3 weeks to 2 months. The turnaround is faster in today's government job market. Thanks for writing. Good luck with your job search. Kathryn

In the USA: For the positions that I have qualified for, I seem to consistently score about 93 out of 100 points. I am beginning to call personnel departments for feedback on my KSA's. Not to my surprise, where I seem to do "average" is on the one KSA that seems to me to be a bit slanted toward someone who is already employed by the Federal Government. It typically reads something like "must have in depth knowledge of and be a subject matter expert on PL 102.6.2.1.....". You get the idea. Almost impossible for someone who hasn't done it for the last 15 years. However, I am told not to be discouraged, that 93 is good. The other problem I seem to encounter quite frequently is that positions that I qualify for and get highly rated (or at least sent to a selection committee) get cancelled. It almost seems as though I make some sort of list, but the selection committee doesn't like seeing my name there and decide to cancel the position. Then, it seems that a similar one gets readvertised not too much later. Should I just give up? I would appreciate your views and whether I'm just wasting my time and stamps. Thanks.

Kathryn Troutman: DON'T GIVE UP.
93 ISN'T BAD. But maybe they could be better. Are you writing examples that demonstrate your KSAs? Are they about 1/2 to 1 page? Are you using a federal resume and not an OF 612 or 171? Is your federal resume about 3 pages long? There are so many variables.

THe KSAs that seem very specific for internal federal employees are tough, but not impossible. You should go to the agency website, read the mission statement, read the recent press releases, find out what you can about those laws and legislation. Write about what you know about this area of government service (even from an American citizen viewpoint). Write something. Do the best that you can. YOur other KSAs should be excellent. You could still come out best qualified.

Cancelled announcements? Yes, it happens alot. Just apply again. Just keep at it. It will pay off. Kathryn

Burke, Va.: A suggestion: With the increasing popularity of electronic resumes, a mutually agreed system of keywords is needed. It makes no sense for the applicant to spend days slaving over a three page resume only to see it rejected for the lack of a handful of words the HR shop thinks they need. For example, many fields in the liberal arts lend themselves to government employment. While the applicant may not have done EXACTLY what the job entails, they may have done something similar enough to merit consideration. They need some way of persuading the computer that these similarities exist!

Kathryn Troutman: KEYWORD CHALLENGES
Yes, the keywords system is challenging for everyone - people inside government and outside trying to get in. Liberal arts applicants need to research the jobs they are seeking. Read the vacancy announcements, other announcements (from other agencies and websites). Compile a list of keywords and use them in sentences in the Work Experience. It's a form of technical writing. Requires research, planning and filling up the page limit. If they require 3 pages, use all the space with descriptions of work, skills and accomplishments. Good luck!

Chicago, Ill.: How come agencies cannot acknowledge application receipt, and the final disposition on a job (whether it was filled, cancelled, etc.) in this day of e-mail?

Kathryn Troutman: ACKNOLWEDGE APPLICATION RECEIPT?
Well, the agencies are working on this for sure. Some agencies that are automated are providing this within minutes. Most Defense applications you will receive a return email within minutes. And some other Defense agencies have an on-line page where you can look at your resume and the job search activities on your resume. The best is Army. www.cpol.army.mil. The programs are called SOARS and ROARS. And they're trying to get better at this! kathryn

Fairfax, Va.: I am a 60-year-old woman with up-to-date skills and a fairly high-level F/T university position. Is it realistic to think that a resume with a 1964 college graduation date would be seriously considered in the federal hiring process?! I often serve on search committees in my current place of employment and know the reaction of my younger colleagues to dates on resumes.

Kathryn Troutman: AGE AND FEDERAL EMPLOYMENT?
Hello, I think that you should apply for jobs for which you qualify. I think that the government needs really good profesional people with excellent experience like yours. I would present your best experience, education and qualifications in the most marketable way and try to present the last 20 years of experience. Put the education on page two. Don't give them information about the graduation date until later in the application. The announcements require that you give a degree date, but that could be up to you. They need you. I would try if I were you. Kathryn

Woodbridge, Va.: I'm interested in submitting an application for a job that is listed as "Open Continuous". Does the employment office really keep a list of applicants for jobs listed as "Open Continuous"? If I apply, should I really expect them to review my application when there is a vacancy?

Kathryn Troutman: OPEN CONTINUOUS ANNOUNCEMENTS
You should go ahead and submit your resume to these announcements. You will have to check the time limits that your resume stays in the database - it depends on the agency. It can be 6 months, 12 months. Check this. It is worthwhile. They will be checking the databases for new positions all the time. Resume databases are really becoming popular in government in order to speed up recruiting and selection of qualified people. This is definately worth your time. kathryn

Montgomery Village, Md.: I've applied for jobs at one agency where I had an interview. I didn't get the position. Should I consider applying for other jobs at that agency?

Kathryn Troutman: DIDN'T GET HIRED, TRY AGAIN?
Yes, Keep applying. You did very well to get the interview. I'd say that you have an excellent chance of doing it again. You should keep applying. You must have done many things right to get to the interview stage. Kathryn

Overland Park, Kan.: Where and how do I find out about federal jobs that are open in this area?

Kathryn Troutman: WHERE ARE THE FEDERAL JOB LISTINGS FOR KANSAS?
MY favorite website for a geographic search is www.federaljobsearch.com. YOu can see Kansas on the left of the screen and then you can search for Overland Park. It's a commercial site, so it's a few dollars, but I like to look at jobs by the city. It's actually kind of fun. I like to look up Honolulu and Europe, just to see who's hiring who. Vicarious work thinking thrills! Kathryn

Blacksburg, Va.: What is the best way to highlight educational experience, for example, related courses?

Kathryn Troutman: HIGHLIGHTING EDUCATIONAL EXPERIENCE
You should list your education before your work experience. And you should include your related courses, activities, honors, major papers and projects, GPA on page one. This way the reviewers can see your entire academic achievements. You will want to use your hard-earned education in your new career -- so you should SELL IT! Kathryn

Vienna, Va: I am a contractor working with a government agency. One of the federal employees I work with is retiring in a few months. His government pension he tells me will be around $62,000 per year for the rest of his life. I've worked in private industry all my life. I have no pension; only the meger dollars I've been able to put into a 401k. When I retire, I'll be no where near the $62,000 mark. I'm approaching 50 years of age, and feel I've worked hard but now I have little to show for it. Is it worth it to go after a federal position for the retirement benefits?

Kathryn Troutman: STARTING AT AGE 50? IS IT WORTH IT?
You should starting applying next week! The retirement plans for government employees is great! I'm jealous too! I work for myself and my accountant told me to go get a job. But I love my work -- helping people get government jobs. You should write a great federal resume and start reading vacancy announcements. You could get 10 years of retirement benefits. Good luck! Kathryn

Silver Spring, Md.: Ms. Troutman, Your books are very helpful! Is there anywhere on a federal application where one can quote positive remarks by previous supervisors on performance evaluations, whether in the government or in private industry?

Kathryn Troutman: QUOTING POSITIVE REMARKS BY SUPERVISORS IN RESUMES & KSAs
Thank you for your nice comment. I'm glad you like my books! The Federal Resume Guidebook has been out since 1995 and people really like the federal resume formats.

Yes, you can include positive comments in your resume. In the work experience section you will describe your duties. Then you should have a subsection called ACCOMPLISHMENTs. You can quote a supervisor or customer here. Quotes are very impressive, interesting and can keep you from having to brag about yourself! They're also great in KSAs. Kathryn

Washington, D.C.: I have tried to apply several GS-9/GS-11 level government jobs for the past year. I have a master's degree in the area I'm interested in and follow the instructions of the application process, but I never hear back from agencies once I apply. What does that mean?

Kathryn Troutman: NEVER HEAR BACK - WHAT DOES IT MEAN?
VOICE MESSAGE SCRIPT FOR ASKING ABOUT ANNOUNCEMENT.

Well, they do receive your applications. Some agencies are not good at responding -- either when they receive your package or about what happened to the recruitment. You could call the personnel office after about 4 weeks and ask them the status of the announcement. You could leave a voicemail and say this:

"Hello, I am Kathryn Troutman and I applied for the position of Writer-Editor, GS-12 Announcement No. 12345 on April 15, 2002. I'd like to know the state of the recruitment and if I am being considered. My phone is 410 744 4324. I can be reached between 3 and 5 pm daily, or leave a voicemail. Thanks very much."

Maybe you will hear back from them and you can know the status. You could also fax a request for information. Always give the announcement number. Kathryn

Somewhere USA: This is a little off the point of today's forum, but I would like your comments, please. My question: Is there some basis for the notion that has been thrown about lately that once you reach the age (40, 50 plus) you no long function as a productive federal worker, your brain no longer works, you became incompetent, etc.? Please let's be honest with these potential new employees and also with our current employees and let them know that the federal government is among the worst when it comes to age discrimination in employment.

Stephen Barr: Kathryn, I'm not sure age discrimination is any worse in the government than what you might find in the private sector. Clearly, the increasing use of technology has contributed to this notion that agencies prefer younger employees. Any ideas on how an older job applicant can address this issue head on when seeking federal employment and make a good case for his experience and skills?

Kathryn Troutman: AGE DISCRIMINATION? MARKETING YOURSELF AT 40, 50?
The most difficult part of the application is the dates for college and some announcements even ask for high school. This is not good when a person is over 50.

So, I just talk about what I would do if I were an applicant and I were over 50. If I wanted a position in government this week and I was over 50, I would not include my high school or college graduation date. Even if the instructions say to include them.

I would write about my experiences for 20 years - back to 1982. I would not mention previous experience.

I would present my skills and experiences as though I was 35. Energetic, accomplished, skilled, valued, hard-working, professional, flexible, willing. My resume would appear to be as good or better than my younger competition.

I can't say how the resumes are reviewed. But I would just work at presenting my best skills and accomplishments. Good luck, Kathryn

Washington, D.C.: I'm trying to transition from the Secretary (GS-318 series) to the Human Resources (201 series). I function as the Personnel Liaison for our division; and I have taken numerous HR courses (7) given at the USDA Graduate school. Whenever I apply for a HR Specialist position they don't find me qualified for that series. I have over 24 years of Federal service and have spent over 10 years as a Personnel Liaison. No, I don't have any college but I have the knowledge and the ability to function as a Human Resource Specialist as reflected in my resume. What specific steps do I have to take to qualify for an entry level HR Specialist position. Why is it that a Federal Employee with over 24 years of service is not considered qualified for an entry level HR position but anyone that has a Bachelor's degree is considered qualified for an entry level position in HR?

Kathryn Troutman: QUALIFIED FOR HR POSITION FROM SECRETARIAL WORLD
Well, the HR people in government really need you! There are SO MANY job listings for HR and you're willing to take an entry level position. You just have to make this work.

Good for you for going back to school to get teh HR courses. I think that you probably must be that you are not featuring your personnel experience from your admin background. You really need to HIT the personnel staff. Counseling employees, training coordination, benefits counsling, timekeeping, etc. You should read the occupational series on OPM for the 201 series and underline every skill and experience that you have performed. You are just not featuring the personnel skills enough. You are CHANGING CAREERS. You need a career change resume with the focus on your skills ---- not the jobs. Also highlight the recent education and courses. Good luck and keep at it. They need you. Kathryn

Beltsville, Md.: How do I go about even getting an application? And what exactly is a "government rating"? And how do I recieve one?

Kathryn Troutman: GETTING A FEDERAL JOB APPLICATION
There is a federal application called an OF-612. You can find this on the OPM website. But don't go there and don't use a 612 as your application. You should just write a federal resume instead of using an application form. YOu can see sample of federal resumes in my book (or you can go to www.usajobs.opm.gov and look at their Resume Builder.

A Government Rating is the rating you get when you apply for a position. They will rate and rank your package and give you a grade. That's how they decide who is going to be interviewed.

You apply for Federal jobs by reading the announcements for jobs. You can go to www.usajobs.opm.gov and find about 20,000 job openings right now! Kathryn

Reston, Va: For all those job seekers: As one who's on the "inside" in HR, let me note it's certainly no secret that for many of these competed positions, the hiring agency has someone in mind on the "outside." So . . . if that person makes the qualifying list, s/he will be the one selected. It's one facet of the system I hate, but, if a position must be competed, it's a fairly common occurrence.

Kathryn Troutman: ANNOUNCEMENTS ARE MANDATORY, EVEN ...
Thanks for writing "inside" HR, yes, in government and in private industry many supervisors have a person in mind that they want for the position. But ... I recommend that people apply for these jobs anyway. "Get on the radar screen", be known and keep trying. The selecting official and/or personnel staff will know that this person is interested -- and know that the application may re-appear when another announcement surfaces that is similar. Thanks, Kathryn

Arlington, Va: Can you share any insights about OPM's new "Recruitment One-Stop"? What's the duration of the project? Is it only open to federal employees?

Kathryn Troutman: OPM'S ONE STOP - FUTURE PLAN
It will be open to everyone - thank goodness! It will be a portal where people can go and find job announcements for all agencies. It could be very helpful and better than www.usajobs.opm.gov. Personally, I like to look at the agency's website (I like to look for jobs by geography and agency) because the agency's have cool looking vacancy announcements -- sometimes. I look forward to the One Stop program. kathryn (I don't know the timeframe)

Washington, D.C.: Working at this agency, there is no performance appraisal (PA) provided. Seeking employment, one requirement would be to submit the PA, how do I meet that requirement?

Kathryn Troutman: PERFORMANCE APPRAISAL REQUIREMENT IN ANNOUNCEMENTS?
Lots of companies don't provide performance appraisals. Many announcements state that if you have your most recent appraisal, please send it with the package. If you don't have one, send all of the other information and skip that item.
kathryn

Washington, D.C.: What would you suggest to as strategies for someone who left federal employment 10 years ago and wants to return? I have career status.

Kathryn Troutman: RETURNING TO GOVERNMENT
Start writing your federal resume right away! The government is hiring returning feds. In fact, I believe there is a special email on the OPM website where you can email your resume directly to someone who will screen your resume and interests. You can look on www.usajobs.opm.gov. Or write to me and I'll try to find it. I saw it recently. I'm at kathryn@resume-place.com. Since you have career status, you should be able to land a new position fairly easily. kathryn

Washington, D.C.: Are there any tricks of the trade you need to know when applying for jobs at Defense Department agencies? Do the non-defense agencies have similiar, or different, job application systems?

Kathryn Troutman: TRICK FOR WRITING A DEFENSE DEPT RESUMIX?
Yes, there are lots of tricks for a successful application to a DOD agency. 1. You have to write a Resumix resume - an electronic resume. 2. You have to find the Job Kit for the particular agency and region so that you can follow the directions and find the correct email. 3. You have to find the correct supplemental statement so that you have the answers to personnel questions. 4. You could find the Resume Builder and submit the resume to a database. 5. You can self-nominate for positions after you have the resume in the database.

My book could help you: Electronic Federal REsume Guidebook & CD-Rom. Electronic resumes should have the keywords for your particular occupational series. You have to find your keywords and skills. Kathryn

Washington, D.C.: Hello, I am a former federal employee with no reinstatement eligibility because I had what is known as a term appointment. I am trying to return to government but am finding it very difficult. I have applied to numerous positions and have made the "first cut" (the one done by HR) for many of them. Unfortunately, I never seem to be invited for an interview by the hiring office despite being one of the top three candidates on the list. Do you have any suggestions? I am wondering if the reason I am not being interviewed is because offices prefer to hire at the lowest grade level possible? Any thoughts on this?

Kathryn Troutman: TRYING TO GET A PERMANENT POSITION FROM TERM STATUS
You should keep at it. You can get in if your resume is good. Your resume just must not stand out enough. If HR is finding you qualified, then the selecting official is not choosing your resume for interview. Hum ... I'd get my resume looked at (and KSAs) if I were you. Maybe it's not focused enough. Yes, the offices like to hire at lower grade levels, but they are realistic. I'll bet it's your application. Kathryn

College Park, Md.: My friend and I both applied for different agencies within the federal government. The person that was overseeing my application said that I should apply for a GS-9 and GS-11 separately; that is, an entire application packet (forms, resume, transcripts, etc.) for a 9 AND an 11 in separate envelopes. I ended up getting an 11.

My friend was told that he should apply for a combined GS using only one form and supplying only one set of transcripts. In the end, he was told that he wasn't sufficiently qualified for the 11 but he was for the 9. Is the procedural handling of applications dependent on the particular agency? Does it really matter if they are separated or not?

Thanks.

Kathryn Troutman: APPLYING WITH ONE PACKAGE OR TWO FOR TWO GRADE LEVELS.
Each agency HR department could give different answers - it depends on their methods of operation for review. But from what I know, I think that two packages would be better. So the GS 9 application can go one way, and the GS 11 package can go another. YOu really can't compare yourself to your friend because you could have different qualifications and the jobs are different. Congratulations on the 11. But your friend gets congradulations too - he got in at a 9. He can move up. Kathryn

Washington, D.C.: Is there one method of submitting a resume (i.e., electronically as opposed to mailing or hand carrying or fax) that is superior and more apt to gain the attention of the human resources office?

Kathryn Troutman: SUBMITTING YOUR RESUME - METHODS?
If the announcement and agency is an automated agency, then you have 4 choices (usually): email (resume in the textbox of the email); Resume Builder; fax or mail. My favorite way is email. But the Resume Builder can be okay also because the correct regional "supplemental statements" are always attached to the Builders.

If you are submitting by paper to a non-automated agency, then the USPS is good, unless it's in Washington, DC. Then you should fax or send by another mail service. Or best would be hand-deliver. But that might be possible. I like fax alot. I have created a dynamic fax cover where I type the personnel person's name in 32 point type. And the fax is very outstanding. Can't be missed. The microsoft word fax covers are so dull. Kathryn

Bowie, Md.: Ms. Troutman, I retired from the Navy several years ago and am interested in joining the federal workforce. I obviously have veteran's preference, but this does not seem to help me. I have experience as a budget analyst, inventory management specialist and in program management. I have applied for over 100 jobs in the past several months and have heard nothing. Can you tell me what I am doing wrong? I am in desperate need of employment. Thank you.

Kathryn Troutman: 100 APPLICATIONS LATER
Hello Bowie, well, honestly, you need to fax me your resume. You are doing something wrong and I mean it. This is not right. You're a veteran, you have 3 good occupational series. If you are working with the Veteran's Administration, they have counselors who can help also. I was training in DC last week on Vermont Avenue. We had 12 Veterans in my class and 6 of them applied for jobs on the 2nd day of my class. Write to me and I'll give you more details. kathryn@resume-place.com I can help.

Washington, D.C.: What should a soon-to-be college graduate do to get in the door at an agency?

Kathryn Troutman: COLLEGE GRADUATE FEDERAL JOBS
Congratulations on graduating! Now you need a good job!
The government wants you! If you have a 3.5 GPA in your major or overall, you should highlight this on your resume. The government has a program called OUTSTANDING SCHOLAR. You could be hired faster this way. OTHERWISE, you should look for jobs at www.usajobs.opm.gov ... or go to the agency that you have selected and look for pages on their website for STUDENTS or INTERNSHIPS. If you find a name or email for a Student Recruiter WRITE TO THEm. You should investigate student - career entry positions. You need a good federal resume. My book has a fantastic federal student resume. www.resume-place.com (not bragging, but it's really good. kathryn

Arlington, Va: What is the average KSA length of individuals hired (1 pg. or 1/2 page)by the federal government? Is there a particular format or "buzz" words that increase an applicants chances? Thanks.

Kathryn Troutman: KSA LENGTH -LAST QUESTION
A good KSA should be 1/2 to 2/3rds to one page. I like to leave about an inch of white space at the bottom for readability. Keep the typefont 11 or 12 point. paragraphs should not be more than 10 to 15 lines. Keep it readable and interesting. Use examples. The buzz words are the words in the KSA itself. Use them in your text. If you want more ideas on KSA writing my book has a chapter on KSAs with the Context-Challenge-Action-Results formula. Examples that demonstrate KSAs.

Thanks for writing, visiting and reading today. Good luck to all of you with your Federal job applications. Please keep at your writing and research on vacancy announcements. If you need help, remember my website: www.resume-place.com. I have a free newsletter - Career Corner - you can sign up and read about resumes, KSAs and Federal job search challenges.
Kathryn Troutman
kathryn@resume-place.com
PS - new book is coming August 2002 - Ten Steps to a Federal JOb!

Stephen Barr: Kathryn, thanks for joining us today. As usual, you did a great job in helping our readers navigate the federal hiring process. And thanks to all of you who sent in questions and who take the time to read this transcript!

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