Bob Levey (Barbara Tyroler)

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Q&A With Bob Levey
Washington Post Columnist
Tuesday, Feb. 12, 2002; Noon EST

"Levey Live" appears Tuesdays at noon EST. Your host is Washington Post columnist Bob Levey. This hour is your chance to talk directly to key Washington Post reporters and editors, local officials and people in the news.

Today, Bob’s guest is Maria Foscarinis, executive director of the National Law Center on Homelessness and Poverty.

Maria Foscarinis

Foscarinis established the National Law Center on Homelessness and Poverty, a not-for-profit organization, in 1989 as the legal arm of the nationwide effort to end homelessness. She has advocated for solutions to homelessness at the national level since 1985. She is a primary architect of the Stewart B. McKinney Homeless Assistance Act, the first major federal legislation addressing homelessness, and she has litigated to secure the legal rights of homeless persons.

After graduating from Columbia Law School in 1981, Foscarinis worked at the law firm of Sullivan and Cromwell. There, she volunteered to take a pro bono case representing homeless families. In 1985, she left the firm to establish and direct a Washington office for the National Coalition for the Homeless. In 1989, she left that organization to focus on legal advocacy, founding the National Law Center on Homelessness and Poverty.

Foscarinis's areas of special interest and advocacy include the criminalization of homelessness, the right of homeless children to an education, the right of service providers to use vacant federal property to aid homeless people, international human rights law, and ethical issues in advocacy on homelessness.

The transcript follows.

Editor's Note: Washingtonpost.com moderators retain editorial control over Live Online discussions and choose the most relevant questions for guests and hosts; guests and hosts can decline to answer questions.

Bob Levey: Good afternoon, Ms. Foscarinis, and thanks very much for joining us today. Let's begin with a story that jolted many people here in the Washington area a few days ago. At least two (and possibly six) homeless men died of hypothermia. Could this have been prevented? Should it have been?

Maria Foscarinis: Good afternoon and thanks for having me. It's a pleasure to be here. I think the deaths could and clearly should have been prevented. The basic problem is that there aren't sufficient programs to address the needs of homeless people. I'm talking not just about housing but health care, treatment services and job help -- the range of services that people need to get out of homelessnes. People don't have to die of homelessness, and it's horrible that they still are.

Alexandria, VA: Inthe 1980s, the ACLU clamored for the mentally ill to be released from state care on the grounds that they were being held against their will. Many of these troubled people, unable to hold down a job or function in society, soon became homeless. Do you disagree with the ACLU's position? Should these people be sent back to the hospital?

Maria Foscarinis: There's a significant minority of homeless people who suffer from mental illness -- about 25 percent. I think the real issue isn't whether people should have the right to be on the street without treatment, but that there should be treatment available and there should be housing available as part of that treatment. A small number of people may need to be in institutions, but most people could do well in housing with supportive services, such as mental health treatment. This is called "supportive housing," and it works. But there isn't enough of it.

Bob Levey: If you ask the average American what turns him or her off about the homeless, the answer is very likely to be that the homeless are dirty, smelly and rude. Have you ever backed public showers and bathrooms? Those would take care of the first two issues, anyway. Comments?

Maria Foscarinis: Public hygiene centers could go a long way in improving life for homeless people and for the rest of us in public places. People who live on the street literally have nowhere else to perform basic life activities, and this is a big problem that has to be addressed. But passing laws that make these activities illegal, like many cities are doing, won't solve the problem. Public restrooms would help.

Bob Levey: A March 2000 survey by the Census Bureau found 280,527 homeless people around the United States. Do you believe the true figure is larger?

Maria Foscarinis: That number is not accurate, and the Census Bureau made clear it was not supposed to be a count of the number of homeless people. A number that is generally accepted as accurate is approximately 800,000 homeless people on any given night. That translates into 2 to 3 million over a year.

Downtown DC - Homeless question: I am so glad to see your guest today Bob as the homeless problem in downtown DC has long been a problem for the people near my office. I walk on the West side of 17th in between H and Penn to get to work every morning. There are -consistantly- 4-6 homeless people on this half block alone during the day. While most of them are nice, some of them get downright rude, aggressive and profane. When this was pointed out to a DC cop one day he told us "Ladies, he's harmeless, just keep walking." !?!?

I spoke to someone handing out meals one day and he said that most of them just dont want a bed even if there was one available. They would (according this volunteer) rather sleep on the street and beg for money.

Given this, what can be done to reclaim our block? I am not insensitive to their plight, and my husband and I volunteer at soup kitchens two or three times a year. But at the same time I would like to take my street back so that myself and my fellow citizens do not have to be accosted each and every time I leave my office.

Maria Foscarinis: It's hard to say for sure how many panhandlers are homeless, but there clearly is an overlap. People who are panhandling are desperately poor, generally, and giving change will not necessarily do anything to change that. But neither will passing laws that make it a crime to beg. What will help both panhandlers and the general public is solutions that address the poverty of those panhandlers and also, in appropriate cases, substance abuse treatment, which is now sadly lacking. It's a mistake to think that people choose to be on the street or that there really are viable alternatives. While there are some emergency programs, they are not nearly enough. The U.S. Conference of Mayors put out a study in December 2001 that showed that 34 percent of requests for emergency shelter were turned away in 2001 due to lack of resources. This is the largest number by far in the 16 years since the mayors have been collecting this information.

Washington, DC: I work at one of DC's two (perpetually-full) battered women's shelters, and I think it is very important that we address the link between domestic violence and homelessness. According to several studies I have read, it is the leading cause of homelessness for women and children. Does your organization offer any kind of advocacy/resources/outreach/etc. efforts dedicated toward the correlation between these two issues? Thanks!

Maria Foscarinis: Domestic violence is a serious contributing factor. Right now our organization doesn't have the resources to address it, but we're trying to raise the resources for this.

Bob Levey: My shirtsleeve guess is that many homeless men are veterans of the armed forces. Couldn't the Veterans Administration seek out homeless vets, to offer them medical care, job placement help and other services?

Maria Foscarinis: About one-third of homeless adults, men and women, are veterans. The VA should be doing much, much more to address their needs and help them become self-sufficient, especially since in some cases, these veterans are suffering from service-related physical or mental ailments.

WAshington, DC: Former NY Mayor Guiliani receive much initial criticism for systematically rounding up the the homeless, but it turned out to be a key element in his successful program for cleaning up the streets of NY. could DC benefit from this approach?

Maria Foscarinis: What Mayor Giuliani did was push homeless people to the edges of the city or to poor neighborhoods, where they wouldn't be the subjects of complaints by businesses and others. But he didn't solve the problem, and homelessness is at record highs in New York City. Many cities have criminalized homelessness, passing laws that make it a crime to sleep, sit, or eat in public, for example. This is a trend we have long monitored and argued against. Criminalizing homelessness will do nothing to get people off the street or to address legitimate concerns about people living in public. But there are other approaches that do help get people off the street, and some cities are beginning to try them. For example, in Philadelphia, the city is working on outreach, offering services and alternatives to living in public.

Bob Levey: I never, ever give money to panhandlers because I don't believe that my 25 cents will solve what really ails them. What's your advice? Should good-hearted people drop a coin into that ever-present styrofoam cup, or should they look away and keep walking?

Maria Foscarinis: I often do give money to panhandlers -- not because I believe it will cure their poverty, but because it is an affirmation that beggars are also human beings, and it's a way of affirming that basic humanity and human connection. When we start to think of beggars as less-than-human, as mere inconveniences, that's when we allow laws that criminalize homelessness and poverty, and we make possible the hate crimes directed against homeless people that are also now on the rise across the country.

Bob Levey: Please tell us about the growing shift of homelessness to the suburbs. Are counties and towns spending sufficient money to handle the problem?

Maria Foscarinis: About 20 percent of the homeless population is now in suburbs, but the services are not there for them. It's important to realize why this is happening. Cuts in housing programs for poor people, together with increased cost of housing in the private market, are major factors. Lack of health care and mental health care and adequate wages, especially for low-skilled workers, are also major causes. So it's not surprising that homelessness is not just an urban problem, but also suburban and rural.

Kingstowne, VA: I read a lengthy piece in an alternative newspaper recently in which the reporter followed around a homeless person for a week to record what her life was like. The homeless woman made it very clear that she is homeless by choice, arguing that it's easier for her to do what she wants to do (drink, mostly) if she's not living in a shelter under someone else's rules. Have you ever been accused of trying to get people off of the streets against their will?

Maria Foscarinis: What's important is to make sure that help is available, which it is now not. For example, I doubt there is help for the alcoholism this woman suffered from, even if she wanted it. It's also important to realize that shelters are not the solution -- they are an emergency bandaid, which means they have often very stringent rules that make it impossible for someone to live in them over the long term, even if they were allowed to. The real solution is housing, together with the other services as needed. I don't think a solution is to force people off the street, nor have we ever been accused of advocating for that.

Landover, MD: I recently visited Canada and the crime and homeless rate was extremely low (not saying that they are directly related) , I know that your organization along with the National Coolition for the Homeless just recently released a report on the "meanest" cities in the US, are there any cities who's laws may be "nice" to the plight of the homeless, and if so, what measures are they taking to make them that way.

Maria Foscarinis: Our report looked at the issue of criminalization of homelessness, and identified cities that focused on that response. We also looked at cities taking more constructive approaches, such as sending out social workers to offer services to people on the street instead of sending police to arrest them, and, more importantly, dedicating resources to shelter and especially housing. I should add that the report also identified hate crimes against homeless people by individuals and also police -- in one case, in San Francisco, a homeless man had his legs run over by a policeman on a motorcycle.

Woodley Park, DC: What do you think of Singapore's solution to the problem of homelessness? There, homelessness is illegal, and when homeless people are found, they are arrested and taken into custody. Then, they are given small apartments for free where they are required to live, and to receive treatment for substance abuse, mental illness, whatever. Isn't this more compassionate than allowing them to live this lifestyle and making help available on a purely voluntary basis?

Maria Foscarinis: That's a very interesting solution. It seems promising, except for the arrest component. I think if housing and jobs and substance abuse treatment are provided, then unless someone is mentally incompetent, most people would accept that. So I don't think people should be arrested, but I do think the other help should be made available. Right now it's not available on either a voluntary or an involuntary basis in the United States.

Washington DC: What are the statistics on people who became homeless because of the Sept 11 attack, and how many homeless peopl if any where reported to have parrished and or affected?

Maria Foscarinis: There are no actual statistics, but we do know anecdotally that people became homeless because of job loss and, to some extent, housing loss. The U.S. Conference of Mayors report that I mentioned found sharp increases in homelessness in 2001, and identified Sept. 11 as one of the reasons.

Bob Levey: What if I said that if rents were affordable, we'd go a long way toward eliminating homelessness?

Maria Foscarinis: I think you'd be right. For people whose primary problem is simple extreme poverty, that would essentially end their homelessness. For people who have other problems as well, such as mental illness or substance abuse, that would also help, but they would also need supportive services. Affordable housing is necessary but not always sufficient as a solution.

Long Island, NY: OK, let's assume the government has unlimited funds and initiates or expans all the programs you advocate for: substance abuse, mental health counseling, emergency shelters, job training, etc. I submit that there will STILL be a large homeless population, maybe 50% of what there is now, living on the streets either because they don't want your voluntary help, or they prefer to live in that lifestyle. What do you propose we, as a civil society, do then? The only choice is to criminalize living on the street, given unlimited help and resources.

Maria Foscarinis: I think you're wrong. One reason is that homelessness really exploded in this country in the mid-1980s, and that can be traced to public policy changes, mainly cuts in housing and safety-net programs, as well as changes in the private market. So it's not right to say that homelessness is destined to be, at least not at those levels.

Alexandria, VA: Approximately how big an investment would be required to meet your organization's goals?

Maria Foscarinis: A 2 billion dollar commitment to housing affordable to extremely poor people would go a long way.

Bob Levey: On my walk to the subway each night, I pass the same guy (and have for years). He repeats, endlessly: "Quarters, dimes, nickels, quarters, dimes, nickels...." One night, a three-piece suit asked the guy why he didn't spend as many hours looking for a job as he does begging change. The guy replied that this is what he knows how to do, and he doesn't want a job. So how do you help a guy like this when he obviously doesn't want to be helped?

Maria Foscarinis: It can be a big challenge. This guy may be mentally ill, which makes it harder to help him. But there are groups that do outreach to the so-called "hardcore" homeless, mentally ill people, establish trust over time. It helps to also have some real help to offer, such as a permanent safe place to live. These kinds of strategies work, and are proven to work, but there are all too few of them. Again, lack of sufficent funding is the reason.

Arlington, VA: Back to the question of whether or not to give change to homeless people, I have often wondered whether it would be effective to carry something like McDonalds Gift certificates or something to give to people. It would enable them to buy something to eat, without that stigma of "they will only spend it on liquor..." I realize this is not the real fix that you are advocating, but is it an effective "band-aid"?

Maria Foscarinis: This can be better than, for example, making it illegal to beg or arresting people for begging. But it is a band-aid, and it can make us feel that we are doing more than we actually are. The best thing individuals can do is call on their political representatives to make this issue a priority and to address it, not by punishing people for being homeless, but by working on constructive solutions.

Los Angeles: What can the average person do to help the homeless? I don't make enough money to really make a difference through donations, though I do give a little and always help out with what I can through food drives etc. Also, I'm willing to volunteer but find that it just never works out with my schedule -maybe selfish on my part].

But in your opinion, what can the average, not wealthy, busy person do to help this awful situation?

Maria Foscarinis: The single most important thing to do is to write, call, visit your political representatives -- your City Council members, state legislatures, members of U.S. Congress. Tell them that you care about this issue and that you demand that they make it a priority. Homeless people are among the most powerless and disenfranchised people in our country, and unless the rest of us speak up, they will be ignored and solutions will not be implemented. I know that this can work, because this is how the aid that is now available, insufficient as it is, came about.

Alexandria, VA: It is obvious we need more resources to help the homeless. Can you quantify for us what you believe is needed? Shelters, substance abuse/domestic violence homes, retraining centers, public education about the realities of being homeless, volunteers. I don't believe passing regulations prohibit begging is the answer. It seems to be continuing the punitive cycle under which these people are already living and would serve to make police and other legal officials spend already already stretched resources to uphold these laws.

Maria Foscarinis: What's really needed is more housing affordable to extremely poor people. Also, for the significant number who are mentally ill or suffer from substance addiction, services and treatment. Jobs that pay wages sufficient to afford housing are also critically needed. This includes job training, so people can acquire the skills they need, but also requires an increase in the minimum wage to a "living wage," so that full-time at the minimum wage allows a person to afford housing. This is not the case now.

Bob Levey: Obviously, homeless people don't vote. Is this part of the reason why no one is seriously discussing this issue at the White House or on Capitol Hill?

Maria Foscarinis: Often, homeless people are not allowed to vote because they lack a permanent address. But this is not legal or constitutional. My organization and others organize outreach efforts to let homeless people know that they do have the right to vote and to provide legal assistance so they can exercise this right. But you're right that even if all homeless people voted, they wouldn't be sufficiently politically powerful on their own to put solutions in place.

Bob Levey: Do homeless women and children get more aid more quickly than homeless men?

Maria Foscarinis: No. In fact, there's a particular lack of help for homeless families, which are often made up of women and children. Sometimes families have to separate in order to get simple emergency shelter. The report I mentioned from the Conference of Mayors found that 52 percent of requests for emergency shelter by families were turned away due to lack of resources.

Maryland: Do you have a breakdown on the number of disabled homeless (deaf, blind, wheelchair, etc)?

Maria Foscarinis: About 17 percent are physically disabled. About 25 percent are mentally disabled. Virtually all should be receiving federal disability benefits, but very few are. The reason is that the application process is extremely difficult and very few of those who apply get benefits. This is an issue my organization is working on right now, to get the Social Security administration to make it easier to apply and receive benefits that these people are eligible for and desperately need.

NIMBY: Here in Washington, there was recently a huge controversy over opening a residence for homeless men in an upper class neighborhood. Although the men eventually moved in, the neighbors threatened (and may still be threatening) litigation based on zoning and the definition of "family."

What kind of work does our group do on behalf of attempts to "zone out" homeless shelters and other housing projects?

Maria Foscarinis: NIMBYism (Not In My BackYard) opposition is a big problem nationally, and one that my organization works on countering. People often mistakenly think that programs or housing for homeless people will bring crime to their neighborhoods or will lower property values. A number of studies show that this is not the case. As for crime, homeless people are more likely to be victims of crime than to engage in crime themselves.

Bob Levey: We routinely ask the police to "deal" with the problem of the homeless, even though they are not doctors, not social workers, and even though no crime has been committed. How do you feel about this? Would we do better as a society if we gave the homeless "problem" to psychiatrists and job placement specialists?

Maria Foscarinis: You're right, police are often the ones dealing with homelessness, because of the criminalization trend I mentioned. They should not be and they are often the first to say this. Instead of police, social workers should be dealing with people on the street, and policy makers should be putting in place housing and other resources. Mental health and job placement specialists can play a role also.

Bob Levey: How seriously do judges take the legal rights of the homeless?

Maria Foscarinis: We've had some success in establishing and protecting legal rights of homeless people. For example, my organization and others have been to court to establish the right of homeless children to go to school. This was a law that we had gotten passed in Congress but that wasn't being enforced. Children were not being allowed to enroll in school because they were not "residents" of the school district, because they were homeless. This is still a problem that my organization works on, but since we got the law passed and the court order, there has been a big improvement.

Richland, WA: Good morning.

First, I'd like to tell you about an excellent program here in the Tri-Cities; the only one of its kind in the nation. There are 20 apartments (actual apartments; not beds in a warehouse!) for the homeless. Rent is based on income. If one has no income, they needn't pay rent until one has one. Applicants are carefully screened so the complex will remain safe. Applicants are expected to remain clean and sober may stay in the complex for up to two years! They are also expected to attend a weekly group progress meeting and there are full case management services including providing payees for those homeless who due to mental illness can not handle their own funds. I wish more regions would emulate this project.

Now, I have a question:
Why do you think traditionally liberal cities such as Boston and San Francisco are criminalizing homelessness?

Thank you.
(Sorry for the long post.)

Maria Foscarinis: That sounds like a good program. Cities like Boston and San Francisco respond with criminalization, I think, as a quick fix to a important problem, which is large numbers of people living on the street. It's easier, maybe, to pass a law than to put in place a program like the one you mentioned. But it doesn't really work.

Bob Levey: Are we beginning to see second-generation homelessness in America?

Maria Foscarinis: Yes, I'm afraid so. Right now, about 23 percent of all homeless people are children. Problems such as lack of full access to school threaten to perpetuate the cycle. It's crucial that we act now to help these kids get education and the other resources they need -- such as food and healthcare, and of course housing -- to prevent the cycle from continuing.

Bob Levey: Many homeless people say they avoid sleeping in shelters because they are afraid of crime. How serious a danger is this?

Maria Foscarinis: It's a problem in some shelters. Other problems that keep people out are strict rules such as requirements that people arrive early in the day, which means that they are then unable to hold jobs. Over 40 percent of homeless people work full- or part-time, so this is a serious problem and impedes efforts at self-sufficiency.

Bob Levey: Twenty years ago, homelessness was a very hot issue in America. The media couldn't get enough of it--especially when Mitch Snyder forced Ronald Reagan to donate a federal building to the homeless. Yet, now the media (and the country) don't seem to be as taken with the problem. Why not?

Maria Foscarinis: I think the media has gotten tired of the issue. This contributes to the perception that homelessness is intractable and that people will always be homeless. My perception is that the media likes controversy and new issues, so the continuing crisis of homelessness has ceased to generate the level of interest it used to have. But the media could do a lot to keep the issue in the public's mind, and more importantly, in policy-makers' minds.

Bob Levey: Thanks very much to Maria Foscarinis for an enlightening hour. Be sure to join us next Tuesday, Feb. 19, when our guest will be Geoffrey Stone, former provost and dean of the law school at The University of Chicago. Professor Stone is a world-renowned scholar on the question of the American military and the American press. We'll discuss how well (how badly?) these two institutions have cooperated since Sept. 11. As always, next week's edition of "Levey Live" will begin at noon Eastern time.

Bob Levey:

Thanks to everyone who joined the discussion.

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