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The National Security Agency
With James Bamford, Author
Wednesday, May 1, 2002; 11 a.m. EDT
In 1952 President Truman created the National Security Agency (NSA) to eavesdrop on and decode often encrypted conversations. Today the agency intercepts thousands of phone calls, e-mails, faxes and radio transmissions daily.
Author James Bamford was online to discuss his book "Body of Secrets: Anatomy of the
Ultra-Secret National Security Agency," the NSA and its role after Sept. 11.
The transcript follows
Editor's Note: Washingtonpost.com moderators retain editorial control
over Live Online discussions and choose the most relevant questions for guests and hosts; guests and hosts can decline to answer questions.
James Bamford: I'm happy be here at the Washington Post today and look forward to answering your questions. The paperback edition of Body of Secrets has just been published and I have a new chapter dealing with the terrorist attack of September 11.
Herndon, Va.:
Mr. Bamford: I was able to attend your excellent lecture at the Smithsonian yesterday, but had to leave before asking the question: What are the major changes in the NSA from when you wrote "The Puzzle Palace" to now?
James Bamford: The major changes deal with switching from the Cold War, with the primary focus on the old Soviet Union, to focusing on many different problems -- especially terrorism -- that can take place anywhere in the world. The key problems for NSA are developing enough language specialist to cover areas of the world with exotic languages, such as those used in Afghanistan. Also, switching to eavesdropping on the new technologies such as the internet and fiber optics. I have much more on this topic in my new book.
Miami, Fla.:
From what I understand, it didn't take you
very long to write this latest book. How were
you able to get som mush "inside" information
so quickly, given that Freedom of Information
Requests are so backed up at the NSA? Were
you given special access or treatment?
James Bamford: Actually it took me almost three years to write it. The Freedom of Information Act Requests took between one and two years to complete. I did get more access to NSA this time as a result of a change in policy and attitude.
New York, N.Y.:
To what extent do you see greater cooperation occuring between the NSA, CIA and DIA regarding collection and analysis of intelligence? And, how much redundancy in this process is desirable from a policy maker's viewpoint?
Thank you.
James Bamford: The most cooperation takes place in the joint centers -- such and the joint centers set up for counter-terrorism, counterintelligence, and counter-narcotics. There is far more cooperation today then a decade ago. There is redundance but less today than before. Much of the sharing is also as a result of the intelligence community's online Intranet known as Intelink which serves as a sort of AOL for the intel community.
Washington, D.C.:
What are the prospects on the Hill for having the Director of Central Intelligence (DCI) truly run the Intel Community; in short, have the NSA (along with NRO and NIMA) fall under him?
James Bamford: The prospects are very slim. The suggestion has been made many times before but the stumbling block is always the secretary of Defense who traditionally opposes such a move because he really controls most of the intelligence assets and it is he who would be the big loser.
Fairfax County, Va.:
Hello, Sir. My daughter is deaf. She was wondering if TTY/TDD can be wiretapped because the machines have baudot/ASCII codes?
James Bamford: I don't know for sure but I doubt that NSA would have much trouble. NSA, as a matter of fact, employs quiet a few hearing impared people.
Lexington, Ken.:
How is what the NSA does different from the intelligence gathering arm of the CIA? Do they share their information, or do they "guard" thier intelligence?
James Bamford: The CIA is in charge of human intelligence -- sending spies to foreign countries to develop sources and steal secrets. NSA is the big ear, eavesdropping and codebreaking. They do shair quite a bit as I have explained in an earlier e-mail.
Seattle, Wash.:
When I was a very small cog in the NSA machine in the early '80s, military personnel such as myself did much of the close-up collecting work. Has this changed? What is the uniformed military's share in the job?
James Bamford: The military still does much of the collecting at the listening posts although there are civilians and contractors that do it also. The military portion of NSA is known as the Central Security Service. The military still plays a large, but decreasing, role at NSA headquarters.
Crofton, Md.:
Did my former employer get a bum rap about
9/11? Should they have foreseen it?
James Bamford: In a perfect world they would have forseen 911 but the terrorists were careful to avoid discussing details on many of the links NSA monitors and the normal indicators they look for -- large transfers of money and explosives -- were not present. It is far different and far more difficult watching for terrorists than watching Soviet missile activity during the Cold War.
Washington, D.C.:
What does the NSA do exactly?
James Bamford: NSA eavesdrops on communications around the world, attempts to break foreign code and cipher systems, and develops and maintains the U.S. code and cipher systems.
Washignton, D.C.:
What do former and current NSA employees think of your book?
James Bamford: Most of the ones I have met like it very much. NSA had a book signing for me when the hardback was published.
Springfield, Va.:
I am suprised that the FBI, CIA, NSA only allow U.S citizens to be employees -- i.e not all people legally entitled to work in the U.S.
This means that these agencies are depriving themselves of serious contacts and information.
Do you think this will change?
James Bamford: I think in light of 911 these agencies have to begin looking to new ways to develop information, including employing non-U.S. citizens. It is really the only way NSA and the other agencies are going to be able to develop the needed language base and the clandestine officers.
Ashburn, Va.:
How does the NSA balance the Constitutional rights of it's citizens versus what's in the interest of National Security?
James Bamford: NSA has a team of lawyers who try to keep the agency within the law and there are senate and house intelligece committees who are supposed to look over NSA's shoulders. Much, however, depends on trust because so much of what the agency does is kept so secret.
Maryland:
Hello. Your book mentioned the CIA's SIGINT role. Why does the CIA have a SIGINT role when we have the NSA?
James Bamford: The CIA has always had a small Sigint roll. The reason originally was because it wanted to do its own Sigint for some of its own activities and operations. They often operate some of the listening posts in very sensitive areas and in some embassies. They also contribute to the Special Collection Service.
Arlington, Va.:
What is detailed in the newest chapeter? I have the hardback and am debating on if I need to buy the soft cover. Thank you for taking questions.
James Bamford: The new chapter takes a look at the 911 terrorist incident and NSA's attempts to eavesdrop on bin Laden. It gets into more detail on their attempts to tap into terrorist networks than in the hardback.
USA:
Does every country inthe world have their own NSA-type organization? I looked at the www.fas.org and most of Europe and Asia have one. What about Africa, the Middle East and South America?
James Bamford: Many countries have NSA-type organization and some are better than others. France, for example, has a very developed organization. Less developed nations in Africa probably have a small service just to listen on their immediate neighbors.
Arlington, Va.:
Perhaps a little off topic, but I was always confused about what the DIA's role is in the spook trade. It seems to me that this would be the first to go if the Federal government ever got serious about eliminating some of the redundancies in its intelligence agencies.
James Bamford: The DIA's main job is sending military officers to most countries as attaches. Their job is overt collection of intelligence. DIA is also the primary analysis agency for military intelligence. I am sure their role will be examined in the upcoming intelligence review.
Washington, D.C.:
Why is it important to eavesdrop on other
people? I was always taught that
eavesdropping was rude and
inconsiderate.
How did it become important to spy on
others? Doesn't this just lead to others
spying on us?
Isn't it ultimately pointless? MAD
magazine's Spy vs. Spy comes to mind --
an endless cold war game of hide and
seek between two spy agencies.
James Bamford: Espionage, and eavesdropping on foreign communications, are necessary evils and have proved effective in the past to help U.S. national security. They also have the potential to cause problems for the country and be abused.
Harrisburg, Pa.:
Many of us in Harrisburg are still trying to figure out Tom Ridge's role in Washington. How much authority should a Homeland Security office be provided? Should a Homeland Security office have the power to order the FBI, CIA, NSA, and other agencies to do as they ask on matters of homeland protection?
James Bamford: My own opinion is that the Office of Homeland Security was a quick kneejerk reaction and probably should be eliminated. It is just one more thing to slow down and complicate an already complicated process. Also, by merging domestic and foreign intelligence collection there is great room for abuse. It should also come under congressional oversight.
Washington, D.C.:
Isn't the NSA just another tool for running
a secret government?
It seems like everytime the President
wants to do something illegal or against
the wishes of Congress, he turns to the
NSA.
The NSA has been involved in drugs,
weapons, and dealings with nefarious
characters -- and cracks codes as you
point out.
To me, though, resorting to Oliver North
tactics to push through secret agendas,
then use the threat of National Security as
a shield from investigation is
questionable and not very democratic.
Shouldn' the NSA be phased out if we
really want a true democracy?
James Bamford: I think you might be confusing the National Security Agency, the subject of my book, with the National Security Council, which is where Oliver North worked. They are two seperate and largely unrelated organizations, although the NSC can direct the NSA what to do. NSA was involved in illegal eavesdropping during the 1960s and earl 1970s but there are no indications that it has reverted back to those day. Nevertheless, I am in favor of strong oversight of the agency.
Columbia, Md.:
Which countries can listen on our phones here in the U.S.? Russia, China, France, Israel, Cuba -- any others?
James Bamford: Russia used to have a major listening post in Cuba but it is now closing it down. Because of the way telecommunications are transmitted -- satellite and microwave, for example, many countries can eavesdrop on some international U.S. communications. Russia, China, France, and Israel are all agressive in the spying activities against the U.S.
Alexandria, Va.:
How do you see the NSA changing to address the homeland defense initiative?
James Bamford: I worry that NSA will be turning more inward and hope that it is continually used to spy on other countries and not on our own. The agency is putting terrorism at the top of its list in terms of targets.
Fairfax, Va:
What has been the result of the on-going reorganizations at the NSA? Is there a new direction?
James Bamford: There have been many internal reorganizations going on, especially eliminating NSA employess from non-operational areas, such as personnel and service areas. These are being done now by outside contractors. The agency is also attempting to reorganize its operations to focus more on tapping into the Internet, fiber optics, and other new forms of communictions technology.
Maryland:
Hi. There was a letter in the Washington Post's book world after your first book in 1982/1983 that claimed you served either in the Army Security Agency or the Air Force Security Agency? True or false?
James Bamford: I served in the Navy for three years during the 1960s.
Alexandria, Va.:
Do you think the NSA can technologically do the job it is currently required to do?
James Bamford: It is a constant struggle for NSA to keep up. The major problem is not finding ways to eavesdrop but to find ways to sift through the millions of communications out there. Fifteen years ago there was virtually no Internet, e-mail or cell phones. Today NSA has to cope with an enormous increase in worldwide communications.
Harrisburg, Pa.:
When did the National Security Agency gain its prominence as a leading policy advisor rather than a data collector? Would you credit Henry Kissinger with this, or not?
James Bamford: I think you are confusing the National Security Agency with the National Security Council, which is where Henry Kissinger worked.
Harrisburg, Pa.:
Your book is one of the few insights into the NSA. Did the NSA have the ability to review and remove what you wrote? If so, did they request you remove anything, and did you think their request was fair? How do employees at the NSA view your book?
James Bamford: NSA never reviewed any portion of the book before publication and thus did not remove or ask to remove anything. The NSA employes I have met and heard from liked the book very much and feel it was very fair and accurate. The agency had a booksigning for me when the hardback was published last year and I received many positive comments.
Florida:
How large is the NSA? Is the NSA's budget public information?
James Bamford: NSA has about 35,000 employees and its budget details are always classified but it is about $4-5 billion a year, not counting the cost of its satellites which add about another $2-3 billion.
Alexandria, Va.:
Mr. Bamford:
What is the budget for the NSA?
How many civilian and military employees does it have?
James Bamford: Please see my previous post.
Alexandria, Va.:
People who can decrypt internet transmissions are very highly skilled.
How does the NSA keep them from quitting and going to work in the private sector as computer security specialists?
James Bamford: NSA often has a hard time keeping some of its most skilled employees because of the higher pay offered by many companies in the private sector. However, the problem has eased a bit with the crash of the dot coms. Many people stay because they like working at the edge of technology and being involved in national security activities.
Washington, D.C.:
You mentioned listening stations in embassies. Statemen like George Shultz, D.P. Moynihan and George Kennan have all argured that these and other intel ops in embassies should be limited / reduced, as they pose challenges and even conflict with diplomatic efforts. Also, terrorist aren't traveling in embassy circles -- are they?
James Bamford: The eavesdropping from embassies is target at the embassies of countries the U.S. is interested in as well as at intelligence targets in the city and area around the embassy. After the terrorist attack of 911 these types of eavesdropping activities will probably be increased rather than decreased.
Alexandria, Va.:
What is the connection, if any, between the National Security Agency and National Security Advisor Condoleeza Rice.
Is Ms. Rice in charge of the NSA? If not then who is?
James Bamford: The NSA is run by Lt.Gen. Michael V. Hayden. Condoleeza Rice runs the NSC, a different organization.
Plano, Tex.:
With the NSA ever expanding mandate to intercept more communications with ever lower standards of privacy it becomes even more important that safeguards be in place to prevent abuse of the information. What safeguards are in place to prevent political appointees from gaining access to intercepts that aren't related to crimes of national security? What safeguards are in place to prevent the release of interesting information to friends and the press? Are all intercept classified at the highest level so that criminal charges can be brought against a NSA staffer than decides to release details of a high profile figure's affairs? Basically, Who is watching the watcher, and how independent and powerful are they?
James Bamford: There are laws that prevent NSA employees from passing on intercepts to people not authorized to receive them. However it is possible for political appointees to get access to NSA information and misuse it. It is a sort of gray area. The only safeguards is Congressional oversight. There are also internal procedures at NSA to help prevent the improper passing of classified information. Also, there are restrictions imposed by the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act that prohibit the release of the names of U.S. persons to people outside the agency, althought there are ways to get around that if the person or agency requests the name.
Virginia:
Quite often, we hear about foreign intel groups doing industrial intel gathering to assist state-run or private industry. Various folks have claimed the NSA has "assisted" U.S. companies. Can you comment on the role the NSA plays in industrial espionage?
James Bamford: Given the complex bureaucratic rules that govern the transfer of NSA's highly secret information it would be very difficult for NSA to pass its intercepts or reports on to private industry. I have found no evidence that NSA engages in that activity. They do spy on foreign companies but largely to see if they are involved in weapons proliferation or violating sanctions. Also, if NSA finds a foreign company is acting illegally against a U.S. company, they may pass that information on.
Washington, D.C.:
Follow-up to the embassy / intel question -- how would more intelligence from diplomatic platforms have related to preventing 9/11? Overall, I would think one lesson from 9/11 is that intellignece needs to focus more on targeting non-traditional, non-government targets, not those of found in embassy circles.
James Bamford: You are probably right about concentrating less on embassy communications and more on non-traditional, non-governmental targets and would assume that they are moving more toward those targets. The key diplomatic communications would probably be those of the Middle East, North Korea, India, Pakistan, Iran, Iraq and a few others
Beltsville, Md.:
Can you explain what Operation Echelon is and what role did the NSA have in it? Is it illegal?
James Bamford: Echelon is the codeword for the operation in which NSA shares its intelligenc with the NSA-type organizations of Canada, U.K., Australia, and N.Z. Each country shairs their intercept take with the other and each has a part of the world they are responsible for. The agreement goes back to 1946. It is legal although it can be abused.
Alexandria, Va.:
How effective is the NSA? Should any blame for 9/11 be laid on their doorstep?
James Bamford: The effectiveness of NSA will be reassessed by the joint intelligence panel being set up to look into the 911 terrorist activity. It was a lot more effective during the Cold War and has had a hard time changing to face the new challenges of the post-Cold War period. I don't know if any blame for 911 can be laid on their doorstep and it is possible that the Congressional committee will come to some conclusion.
Houston, Tex.:
How has LTG Hayden's "100 Days of Change" been accepted by the rank and file at the agency, and how much further in fully implementing all of the recommendations that made up the "100 Days of Change" have to go?
James Bamford: From the people I have talked to they felt that the 100 days of change was a good idea but that much more needs to be done. Also, many of the ideas that came up in the 100 days of change need to be followed through on. I think there is still quite a ways to go.
Alexandria, Va.:
Can the NSA break the kind of 128-bit encryption that browsers use?
James Bamford: It is just an opinion but I am fully confident that the agency can break the 128-bit encryption but it requires a lot of dedicated computer time.
Alexandria, Va.:
Is there such a thing as a satellite that can eavesdrop on non-cellular phone calls?
James Bamford: Satellites can, and do, easily eavesdrop on microwave communications. Many, if not most, phone calls eventually get transmitted via microwave communications. Microwaves travel in a straight line and they eventualy go out into deep space where the satellites can intercept them.
Washington, D.C.:
I think your books and this type of exchange do a great service to our nation by informing Americans on how our taxes are spent, and what our government does. I gather that the current leadership at NSA is supportive of more open information, within limits, about its activites. Is this a sea-change, or just something that might backslide after Hayden leaves?
James Bamford: Thank your very much. I agree. I hope this is a sea-change but we will have to see.
James Bamford: Thanks for all your great questions. The Washington Post surely has an intelligent group of web followers. Jim Bamford. You may also contact me at washauthor@aol.com
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