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Conflict in Macedonia
With Frederick C. Abrahams
Authour, Human Rights Researcher
Wednesday, June 27, 2001; 11:00 a.m. EDT
European Union envoy Javier Solana secured a limited cease-fire agreement Sunday in Macedonia. The Post's R. Jeffrey Smith reports that government forces will halt offensives in exchange for a European-monitored withdrawal of ethnic Albanian guerillas near Skopje, the Macedonian capital. Still, tensions are high and a permanent cease-fire throughout the country remains elusive.
Frederick C. Abrahams, a project fellow at the Open Society Institute focusing on developments in Kosovo and Macedonia since 1989, will be online Wednesday, June 27, 2001 at 11 a.m. EDT to discuss the effects hostilities have had on the Slavic and ethnic Albanian populations of Macedonia.
Submit your questions and comments before or during the discussion.
Many Macedonian citizens have been forced to flee their homes to escape violence with as many as 56,000 Albanians traveling to neighboring Kosovo.
Abrahams was a senior researcher for Human Rights Watch monitoring events in the southern Balkans from 1994 to 2000. He also provided research and analysis for the Office of the Prosecutor at the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavian in The Hague. Since 1989, Abrahams has conducted research and worked in Albania and is writing a book on the country.
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washingtonpost.com:
Mr. Abrahams, could you please describe the situation facing Macedonian citizens in light of ongoing violence?
Frederick C. Abrahams: I don't want to be fatalistic, but the current situation in Macedonia is dire. The experience of the past decade shows how violent wars in the Balkans can be, especially for civilians. And a conflict in Macedonia would be no different,and perhaps worse. The capital Skopje, for instance, is at least 20% ethnic Albanian, so fighting there would be tragic.
Rolling Meadows, Ill.:
Why don't NATO and the U.S. send troops to Macedonia to stop the violence before it becomes another Kosovo? Why Wait so long so we can dig the graves years later? Since you have been doing research in that part of the Balkans, you know the kind of people the Albanians are dealing with, people that kill kids and women or unarmed innocent civilians.
Thank You Mr.Abrahams
Frederick C. Abrahams: I agree that NATO and the West generally should be more involved now to avoid bloodshed later. As you say, the West has acted to late in the past, at the expense of civilian lives.
I believe there are people in the U.S. government and in NATO who agree with this. But there are also many people and certain institutions that are reluctant to intervene. For one, the Bush administrations stated aim has been to play less of a role in the Balkans, leaving it more to Europe. There are also those who do not believe that intervention is in the U.S. national interest. In my opinion, U.S. involvement is crucial, not only to avoid bloodshed in Mac. but also to help avoid a wider regional conflict.
Skopje, Macedonia:
THE QUESTION IS: How can we explain to Macedonians in order to understand once and forever that their crisis of identity can not be cured by violating rights of Albanians?
Thank You in advance
Vullnet POSHKA, TV Editor, Skopje
Frederick C. Abrahams: I don't have a set answer for this. But I do believe that the international community shares some of the blame. First, the UN sanctions against Yugoslavia during the war (1992-1995) and the embargo on Macedonia by Greece (because of Greece's objection to the name "Macedonia") both hurt Macedonia economically. The West did not do enough to provide Macedonia with economic assistance during this difficult time. Unemployment is currently around 37%, which affects people of all ethnicities. I believe this economic factor is one of the factors behind this conflict.
washingtonpost.com:
What type of intervention or involvement in Macedonia by the U.S., NATO and/or the EU would you like to see?
Frederick C. Abrahams: Although I have my criticisms of US foreign policy, I do believe that resolving the Mac. crisis requires US leadership. For one, the EU is too divided and full of competing agendas to act effectively. The US has the ability to act with one voice. In addition, the Albanian rebels -- the NLA -- have the most trust for the US.
As for the type of intervention, I personally believe that an expanded military presence of NATO will be required to guarantee any political deal that is reached. A kind of MFOR (Macedonia Force) is in order, but only on the invitation of the Mac government, of course.
Duluth MN.:
Frederick C Abrahams: What is the position of the State Department at this time, beyond the assistance of troops for withdrawal?...Are refugees being stacked like cordwood in villages already overflowing with refugees?
Is it 'too little too late' or what would aid the situation most effectively at this late date?(what could our State Department do now, to effect a possible peace and deactivate this 'powderkeg'?)
Frederick C. Abrahams: Although I don't know all the inner opinions of the State Dept., I believe there are competing ideas. As I said, the Bush administration has been trying to play a less active role in the Balkans. But others understand that this is simply not possible. The US must play a major role in Kosovo, Bosnia and now Macedonia.
My personal opinion is that State, together with the EU, must apply strong pressure on all sides - the Mac. government and the NLA - to reach a political solution. An escalation of violence will certainly be a disaster for ALL involved, and this must be avoided. The US should also be ready to provide troops to enforce a political settlement.
Brooklyn, NY:
Was the ethnic Albanian population of Macedonia subject to -human rights- abuses before the current conflict, i.e. active political repression and abuse as distinct from less overt forms of discrimination?
Frederick C. Abrahams: The ethnic Albanians of Macedonia were not treated as badly as Albanians in neighboring Kosovo - but it is not correct to use Slobodan Milosevic as the yardstick for human rights.
Albanians in Macedonia had some legitimate complaints:
* police abuse
* discrimination in unemployment (underrepresented in state jobs)
* restricted access to Albanian-language education (especially on the university level)
In general, they were treated as second-class citizens. I would call it an ongoing and low to middle level discrimination. They were, for instance, very free to have their media, conduct business, organize politically etc. Blatant repression there definitely was not.
I would say that, while many ethnic Albanians in Mac. do not agree with the violence of the NLA, the rebels do represent an extreme form of the frustration that many Albanians in Mac. share. And, of course, as the gov't confronts the rebels in an indiscriminantly violent way, more Albanians will join the militaristic cause.
Cumberland, Md.:
I have seen statements that there are approximately 120,000 illegal Albanian immigrants in Macedonia and this has contributed to the crisis. Would you care to comment on this?
Frederick C. Abrahams: I don't know exactly how many illegal Alb workers are in Mac - I am sure there are some from Albania. But I don't believe this has much or any impact on the current crisis.
Cumberland, Md.:
What has it taken NATO/K-FOR so long to control the border between Kosovo and Macedonia?
Frederick C. Abrahams: This is a very interesting question. Some, especially people in the Mac. gov't, hase suggested that NATO purposefully allowed Albanian rebels to remain active in the border region. I believe it has more to do with force protection. NATO troops (and the sector along the Kosovo-Mac border is run by US forces) are primarily concerned with avoiding casualties of their own.
Also, the border is very difficult to patrol. The mountainous terrain makes for easy smuggling, arms transfers etc.
New York, NY:
Do you think the international community has thus far played a positive role in mediating this conflict? Do you think they have a united plan of action with regard to solving this crisis?
Frederick C. Abrahams: Firstly, the international community has failed in Macedonia over the past ten years. Since the country achieved its independence, the West has been concerned with protecting its territorial integrity and stability. The first ever UN preventive deployment force was sent there, I believe in 1992 (UNPREDEP). The OSCE was there too.
But the West's approach has always been to support the government without pressing it to improve its human rights record - against ethnic Albanians as well as other citizens. As far as conflict prevention is concerned, the West totally failed.
Now the situation is much more complicated, and there is the definite danger that the conflict will spill out of control. And I am not convinced that the international community is satisfactorily of the same mind to act effectively.
Cumberland, MD:
Doesn't the recent outbreak of anti-NATO rioting in Skopje, underscore the point that NATO and the US are both viewed as too pro-Albanian to have any leverage with Macedonian authorities, short of financial blackmail?
Frederick C. Abrahams: It is true that many ethnic Macedonians, in and out of gov't, increasingly view NATO and the US as pro-Albanian. But I don't believe that this precludes the West's strong involvement in resolving this crisis. First, it is important to know that there are different opinions within the Mac government. President Trajkovski, for instance, has been much more willing to pursue political dialogue and make concessions, whiile PM Georgievski has pursued the military option, along with the Minister of Interior. Also, as you say, the West can bring tremendous pressure to bear, economically and politically, on the Mac authorities, as well as the NLA, to resolve this politically.
Rockville, MD:
Mr Abrahams, what international involvement beyond military assistance would you suggest? Should the OSCE expand its mission there in relation to rule of law, human rights, and democratization?
Frederick C. Abrahams: The experience of Kosovo with the OSCE's KVM mission in 1998 shows that international monitors can help reduce human rights violations. Monitors from the OSCE, the EU, as well as non governmental organizations, should increase in Macedonia.
I also believe that the West should consider economic packages for Macedonia and the Southern Balkans. Aid, linked to concrete improvements in political reform and human rights, would help the country prosper, which is so crucial for any long-term stability.
washingtonpost.com:
Is it possible to effectively deal with the situation in Macedonia independent of the situation in Kosovo? How closely tied are the two and how effectively can the current governments of Macedonia and Yugoslavia deal with them?
Frederick C. Abrahams: Having been formerly part of one country, the situations in Mac and Kosovo are intricately linked. For instance, the unresolved status of Kosovo is one of the factors behind the fighting in Macedonia today.
I have always been concerned that the West approaches the Balkans like a firefighter putting out the individual blazes without looking at the deeper reasons for trouble.
Ultimately, there must be a regional approach. Economic development (including a strong fight against corruption and organizaed crime), the contruction of democratic institutions, and perhaps even regional security structures should be examined.
Lastly, as I mentioned above, the status of Kosovo must be addressed.
Quince Orchard, MD:
The Balkans has been a killing zone for centuries. Memories are long and thirst for revenge is handed down like family heirlooms. Why should we put our children at risk by sending in troops when the locals seem to view the bloodsheed as ongoing history that cannot be avoided?
Frederick C. Abrahams: While it is true that the Balkans has a long history of ethnic hatred and fighting, I strongly dispute the notion that this fighting is unavoidable. On the contrary, the fighting in former Yugoslavia is the result of concrete actions by individuals and institutions.
As for putting US troops at risk, I would admittedly have a difficult time convincing a parent in Idaho or New Jersey to send their child into a Balkan war. But I do believe that the US government is in a position to help avoid major bloodshed in a region of the world where the US government has been very active for over a decade. In addition, there are US interests at stake. I don't believe it is an exxageration to say that full-scale fighting in Mac. could envelope the neighboring countries of Greece, Albania, and Bulgaria, and perhaps also Turkey. Greece is a EU and NATO member, as is Turkey (NATO).
Gullsgate Minn.:
If there is any criticism of the State Department, is it in the State Department's reluctance to get involved initially...then only stepping in militarily at the time of crisis; and then being reluctant to enforce the parameters they are there to protect?
Do we become the 'cop-on-the-block' because all we offer is military hardware and 'consulting troops' who create more tension?
Do we need a viable human rights watch division within the State Department to focus on potential human casualty before it happens?
Has State Department methodology outlived its credibility?
Frederick C. Abrahams: I believe one of the crucial mistakes of US foreign policy is that it gets involved only after a situation has become a crisis.
In Macedonia, the inter-ethnic tension and human rights violations have existed for the past ten years. After the Kosovo war, it was predictable that more problems would arise. Yet, the West did not take serious action until recently.
Unfortunately, the message here is that to get your agenda on the table, one should pick up arms. This is what the Albanians learned in this case. Ten years they waited without serious international involvement to help improve their status in Mac., so now they have taken the militaristic road. It is not the force of arguement but the argument of force.
Washington, DC:
Given the track record of the international community in Balkans, how realistic do you believe it is to hope for robust and effective economic assistance? In Bosnia, that aid (while hampered by corruption) has lagged behind other more visible and politically attractive aid such as elections.
Frederick C. Abrahams: I agree that the West's track record with aid in the Balkans has not been stellar. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't push in that direction. Hopefully, the international donor community can learn from its past mistakes.
Alexandria, VA:
Ever since the conflict in Macedonia began, there has been mounting criticism directed toward the efforts of humanitarian organizations on the ground. At issue is whether those organizations, such as the International Red Cross, are providing sufficient humanitarian assistance to displaced ethnic Macedonians from the Tetovo and Kumanovo regions, as well as the villages neighboring the capital, Skopje, where much of the recent fighting has taken place. More specifically, the gripe is that the humanitarian organizations have shown a bias toward assisting ethnic Albanian refugees, while ignoring the plight of the ethnic Macedonian refugees.
Allegations that humanitarian assistance has not been provided to (or has been slow in reaching) ethnic Macedonian refugees have surfaced in the Macedonian press, but nothing concerning this matter has been covered by the Western media.
I would appreciate it if you would you comment on the status of this issue.
Frederick C. Abrahams: I have not heard this allegation before, so I cannot comment on its veracity. However, I will say that the vast majority of internally displaced persons inside Mac. has been ethnic Albanians. This is for the simple reason that the fighting has taken place primarily in areas where ethnic Albanians live (Tetovo and Kumanovo area). I will add, however, that there are some ethnic Serb and ethnic Macedonian villages in the conflict zone as well, such as Umni Dol near Kumanovo, and these people have been forced to flee. Some of the civilians, ethnic Serbs, have also been subjected to violence by the NLA. But I have not heard of the international humanitarian orgs. treating them any differently than other IDPS.
Alexandria, VA:
Considering some argue that the NLA's intention is to win greater rights for and the deeper socioeconomic integration of ethnic Albanians in Macedonia, based on your knowledge of the country, is there anything to indicate that ethnic Albanians have made a sincere attempt to integrate themselves within the existing state structures?
After all, you're probably aware that one of the criticisms that ethnic Macedonians have of Albanians in Macedonia is that they are, by and large, isolationists, be it for cultural and/or religious reasons. Ethnic Macedonians seem to hold the view that Albanians do not share the loyalty to and mutual respect for the state.
Frederick C. Abrahams: Without question, the ethnic Albanian community in Mac. also shares some of the blame, for various reasons. First, the Albanian politic cannot always agree on what it wants. There is intense competition for power within the Albanians that sometimes prohibits them from agreeing. Also, there are clearly certain politicians and individuals who benefit from Albanians' second-class status. They require the "oppression" of the state to maintain their positions. Lastly, the Albanian community has been plagued by corruption (as has Mac. generally). Individuals in positions of power, such as in the gov't., prefer to stay there because of the economic benefits they enjoy.
I would also add something not pleasant for Albanians to hear but, in my opinion, true and relavent. That is the Albanians' inferiority complex, which is a factor in Mac and Kosovo. After years of oppression, they are used to being victims. They are comfortable in that role. This does not mean that they don't strive for improvements - of course they do.
Cleveland Park, D.C.:
Can you give us a clear idea of the specific grievances claimed by the ethnic Albanian guerillas in Macedonia? They say they are "second class citizens", but what does that mean exactly? I've seen no reports that they suffer nearly as egregious oppression as the Kosovar Albanians did under the Serbs. And since these guerillas are closely tied to the KLA, is it fair to suppose that the current conflict in Macedonia is a somewhat opportunistic pursuit of the "greater Albania" goal that has been thwarted in Kosovo by NATO?
Frederick C. Abrahams: The NLA is an extreme and violent reflection of a frustration felt by many ethnic Albanians. Although many Albanians don't agree with the means, they sypmathize with the stated aims.
Since 1991, Albanians in Mac. have experienced state discrimination in employment and education. As documented by human rights organizations, they are also disproportionately affected by police abuse. Of course, their status was not nearly as bad as in Kosovo, but this does not lessen their grievances.
As for the aims of the NLA, there are many. I believe that some individuals within the NLA are genuinely fighting for improved rights. But there are clearly many others who are striving for at least the federalization of Macedonia, or even succession. Flush from "victory" in Kosovo, many Albanians see this as a historical opportunity to correct the wrongs done to them in the past (i.e. change borders). There are also those motivated by profits and crime. After the fall of Milosevic in Serbia, there has been a mad rush for control of the illegal activities and smuggling routes in the region - both Albanians and Macedonians have taken part in this. It is not a coincidence that the NLA's activities started in the village of Tanushefci on the Kosovo-Mac border, a place long known for its smuggling activity.
Tirana, Albania:
What is the possibility that escalating conflict in Macedonia can involve neighbouring countries, like Albania, Greece and Bulgaria?
Frederick C. Abrahams: The possibility of the conflict spreading is real, but it is also not inevitable. First, I am still hopeful that this will not come to war inside Macedonia. I believe there is enough awareness in the EU countries and the US that something must be done to reach a political agreement.
washingtonpost.com:
Thank you for joining us today Mr. Abrahams.
Check back at washingtonpost.com for more coverage of the situation in Macedonia and other live discussions on the Balkans.
Frederick C. Abrahams: Thank you for the provocative questions.
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