|
A Look at Social Class
With Louis Alvarez and Andrew Kolker
Filmmakers, "People Like Us: Social Class in America"
Monday, Sept. 24, 2001; 2 p.m. EDT
Do you drink chardonnay or Budweiser? Consider yourself landed gentry or working class? Drive a pickup truck or a BMW? Social class -- income, education, family and appearance -- affect everyone in America, from the way we're perceived to the way we perceive ourselves.
"People Like Us: Social Class in America," a look at the class structure that helps define American culture, aired on PBS Sunday, Sept. 23. Filmmakers Louis Alvarez and Andrew Kolker twice winners of both the Peabody Award and the duPont-Columbia Journalism Award, were online to talk about their latest work on Monday, Sept. 24.
The transcript follows.
Alvarez and Kolker have produced documentaries on American culture for more than 20 years, including "Moms" (1999); "Vote for Me -– Politics in America" (1997); "Louisiana Boys -– Raised on Politics" (1993); and "American Tongues," (1988) which launched the PBS anthology series "P.O.V." Their production company, The Center for New American Media, is based in New York.
The transcript follows.
Editor's Note: Washingtonpost.com moderators retain editorial control
over Live Online discussions and choose the most relevant questions for guests and hosts; guests and hosts can decline to answer questions.
washingtonpost.com:
Good afternoon, and welcome. You state in your film that social class is the big elephant in the living room that no one talks about in American society -- it's more subtle and cuts across more lines than more obvious factors like race. How did you approach the subject, and what made it so interesting to you? Was there a scholarly element to your research?
Louis Alvarez and Andrew Kolker: We approach our films more or less as anthropology--and m;any of our films have touched on the subject of class--so it was natural for us to want to tackle the subject explicitly. This did not make it easy, however. In fact, it was the most difficult thing we've ever done.
Baltimore, Md.:
Why do you think people are so reluctant to discuss social class? Do we not want to admit we belong to one?
Louis Alvarez and Andrew Kolker: The people least reluctant to talk about social class, it seemed to us, were the people at the top and the bottom of the scale. The upper middle class was most reluctant, because they didn't want to be perceived as being better than anyone else. It's part of our egalitarian tradition.
Washington, D.C.:
Some of the stories in your film were hilarious, others really poignant. Do you have a favorite?
Louis Alvarez and Andrew Kolker: We all have personal favorites, as well as favorite moments. It kind of depends on our moods -- sometimes we like the serious stories and sometimes the light ones. And then there's the stuff that endedon the cutting room floor!
Alexandria, Va.:
How did you find the people you talked to? It can't be easy to track down folks like the woman in Ohio in the trailer who walked to work, or to get access to the chichi events in the Hamptons.
Louis Alvarez and Andrew Kolker: Much of it is hard work--our casting is very important to us. But there's also serendipity involved, and a lot of personal connections. In this film, we looked for guides--people who had intimate knowledge of their own class.
Minneapolis, Minn.:
How did making the film change the way you think about your own class?
Louis Alvarez and Andrew Kolker: I think we're much more conscious of our own boxes that we live in, and how our own choices are the product of our class background. I'm also finding out how many friends I thought grew up middle class like me turn out to have a lower-middle class background.
Washington, D.C.:
What a shame that I missed your film on PBS last night. Is it going to be shown anytime soon? It looks very interesting, and I would love to see it!
Louis Alvarez and Andrew Kolker: Check your local PBS station listings; there will be rebroadcasts in many markets over the coming week.
Washington, D.C.:
Is social class based on one's income/wealth, manners, education, where one shops and socializes or a combination of those factors? For example, what about someone who has a masters degree, teaches at an elite school but doesn't make much money, lives in a middle-class neighborhood, and has friends from different social classes?
Louis Alvarez and Andrew Kolker: You're right, it's all of the above in the US. Our class boundaries are real, but porous here. And it happens just enough times that someone from modest surroundings grows up to be a CEO so that most people think they can to. It can be energizing or paralyzing.
Arlington, Va.:
I wanted to smack those guys in that bar in Baltimore. I grew up working class and proud, and it blew me away to think that he thought that the folks who were there, just because they were drinking Pabst or something, didn't get the irony.
Louis Alvarez and Andrew Kolker: The interesting thing about the bar scene is that it is the ONLY scene in the film where classes are actually mixing. It's a sad commentary that it had to be that kind of an unequal relationship, but it proves our point about being stratified in the US.
Clifton, Va.:
Wonder what class I fit in. College graduate, 41-year-old male, work for DoD as a civilian and drive a BMW. Prefer long neck Bud and local micro brews, Virginia and Italian wines, owned by a collie, watch road racing and NASCAR on TV and prefer exotic women.
Louis Alvarez and Andrew Kolker: I don't know--what do you think? A lot of this is perception--which can become reality.
Raleigh, N.C.:
Do people get squeamish about you filming their conversations? I was watching the blond upper class guy talk with that woman about some mutual acquaintance, and I kept thinking that my own conversation would be so stilted and fake if I knew someone were listening.
Louis Alvarez and Andrew Kolker: Well, Raleigh, obviously you aren't upper class! They have no shame!
Bowie, Md.:
Hi:
Sadly, I missed your program -- any idea if PBS plans to air it again?
Also, based on the description of this project -- are you famililar with the concept of geodemographic segmentation? Companies like Claritas use Census data to determine neighborhood traits, which allows it to develop systems of "clusters" that describe groups of people. These clusters strongly parallel your "classes" -- they have names like "Blue Blood Estates" and "Towns & Gowns" and "Back Country Folks." It's the old saw of "birds of a feather flock together."
Louis Alvarez and Andrew Kolker: Actually, we shot a sequence on a Claritas-like system that didn't make it into the final film. If you go n our website at www.pbs.org/peoplelikeus you'll find a link to the Claritas website that breaks down your home zipcode into these demographic packages.
New York, N.Y.:
I heard people talk in bits and pieces about the idea that you can transcend class -- or more accurately, become a member of a different class than the one you grew up in. Do you believe that's true?
Louis Alvarez and Andrew Kolker: Well, that's the $64000 question about class in america. Obviously people change classes -- we usually hear about the ones who move up. We felt that it was tough, and that it also meant breaking with lifelong attitudes in order to take on the views of one's new class. But it's hardly an easy rags-to-riches kind of thing.
Washington, D.C.:
Did you approach this film any differently than the others that you've made?
Louis Alvarez and Andrew Kolker: Not initially. But it became very clear that class is a touchy subject and many people didn't have anything to say--or didn't want to talk about it. Access was a definite problem. So we shot a lot of material.
Ithaca, N.Y.:
How easy was it to get the upper classes to talk about themselves? I see that as being a somewhat difficult thing, seeing as they helped to perpetuate the WASP-y myth. I wanted to know you didn't get their opinion on affirmative action and compare that with the concept of legacies (a common issue here at my school.)
Louis Alvarez and Andrew Kolker: Well, the upper class IS able to insulate itself from nosy documentarians. we were lucky in getting some honest folks who could provide an insider's viewpoint. And we did have material on the meritocracy that didn't make it into the final film.
Cincinnati, Ohio:
Have you gotten feedback from the people in the stories? Did anyone think they weren't portrayed accurately? Those kids with their SUVs made me want to think long and hard before having any of my own.
Louis Alvarez and Andrew Kolker: So far everyone has been positive. even the WASP guy, Lang Phipps, has been basically happy. I don't know if the bar crawl guys have seen it, but I suspect they'll find themselves amusing. We really tried to avoid creating out and out villains -- there's lots of grey areas.
Washington, D.C.:
I'm fine with being middle class, and where I come from, but in the workplace it seems like people from upper class backgrounds are advancing faster. I hear about consultants who are hired because of their elite connections, and they get paid hundreds of dollar per hour for who knows what.
Louis Alvarez and Andrew Kolker: There's no doubt that who you know and where you come from helps to get ahead here, like anywhere else. That doesn't mean that things are necessarily closed to you--certainly we all see cases where people from middle or lower classes get ahead. But it's not easy;.
Washington, D.C.:
Do you find that the social system in the U.S. is different from other countries? I know many people say there is no class system in the U.S., but I believe that there is one, but you can actually move around in it, whereas in other countries you are stuck in any given class. Have you compared the U.S. to elsewhere?
Louis Alvarez and Andrew Kolker: We had some wonderful material we shot in London, where EVERYONE talks about class. It's very depressing over there compared to the US, in the sense of restrictions, both imposed and self-imposed, on what one can do with one's life. And places like France are even more class bound. So the US has a pretty good record, although not as great as we like to think -- hence our film.
Arlington, Va.:
How did you decide what to cut out?
Louis Alvarez and Andrew Kolker: Always hard. Some things were cut only at the last moment--it's like sacficing your lambs, but usually it makes for a better show. Some of the stuff we cut is actually on our website--www.pbs.org/peoplelikeus
Washington, D.C.:
The society columnist -- what newspaper does he work for? He was so funny at that party with the Hilton girl.
Louis Alvarez and Andrew Kolker: He writes for a publication called Gotham. He does a lot of private PR as well.
Fairfax, Va.:
Tell us clueless middle-classers more about about this "meritocracy" you mentioned.
Louis Alvarez and Andrew Kolker: There's a theory that in the 1950s the WASP elites who ran the Ivy Leagues realized that for America to continue to prosper, they'd have to start letting heretofore non-WASPs into their citadels of learning. hence the idea that anyone who shows real merit, black, jewish, asian, whatever -- can and should be among the next generation of leaders. This has become accepted wisdom, I think.
Richmond, Va.:
Thoughts on why everyone wants to be considered "middle class"? I grew up working class, but I sure dreamed about the big house and some day being upper class. Maybe that's too much ambition for one generation!
Louis Alvarez and Andrew Kolker: We all grow up wanting to better ourselves. For some that means a bigger house, car whatever. Others want a better education. It's the rare person who's completely happy where they are.
Morristown, N.J.:
How did you find that group of high school kids? Did their parents have to give permission, and did any of them give you flak for the final product?
Louis Alvarez and Andrew Kolker: we knew people in Austin Texas who researched schools. Yes, we had to get permission from parents, although some of the kids were over 18. They're going to get to see the show in a couple of weeks, then we'll find out!
Dover, Del.:
Do you think people get defensive about class, or are they more likely to "get it"? The "Hon" festival in Baltimore made me think that some people clearly understand the joke.
Louis Alvarez and Andrew Kolker: Most people intinctively know about class although they can't articulate it. The Hons are a joke--or a celebration--or maybe there a bit patronizing--it really depends on where you're coming from to evaluate it.
Washington, D.C.:
Any thoughts on class and geography? Are some parts of the country more class-conscious than others? I grew up in an industrial Midwestern town, and now I live in D.C. -- and when I moved here I realized that there's not much of a blue-collar working class. It's noticeably missing in a city without "industry."
Louis Alvarez and Andrew Kolker: yes, geography is a big deal when it comes to class. An uppermiddle class Dallasite might be considered trashy among their New York counterparts; small towns have different kinds of structures. in Washington I assume one's GS level creates its own hierarchies!
New York, N.Y.:
The PR angle is a funny one; upper class folks making a living publicizing other upper class folks. Lizzie Grubman being my favorite example. Is there an emerging ethic of needing to get out and work? Has the "idle rich" stereotype gone away forever?
Louis Alvarez and Andrew Kolker: Yes, out of necessity. There's lots of WASP types who are "upper class" with no money. So they have to work, where a generation or two ago they would be idle or--and this was very true--do public service work (think of the Rockefellers)
Arlington, Va.:
What made you decide to go to the places you did?
Louis Alvarez and Andrew Kolker: well, the hardest part was figuring out where the stories were. We decided on Baltimore because it's a class-conscious town with great folks; we had a producer here who came from a small town in Ohio where we ended up filming; and so forth. It can sometimes seem like an overwhelming set of choices.
Places like Texas and the South are always good for filming..people are more expressive there. the Midwest (where I'm from) is a little harder to generate heat in!
Washington, D.C.:
Do you consider yourselves middle class?
Louis Alvarez and Andrew Kolker: Yes, my parents (although they were poor growing up) worked hard and got into the middle class. I actually grew up in a post-war development called "Happy Homes". But my father was never very good with money--he thought that enjoying what you do and making a difference was more important anyway.
Washington, D.C.:
What a great documentary! I imagine the editing process must have been very frustrating what with all the incredible material you collected. Could you share with us some of the "out-takes" that you hated to lose or what might have been included had PBS given you, say, 12 hours to tell your story?
Louis Alvarez and Andrew Kolker: You can see some outtakes at www.pbs.org/peoplelikeus. We had a sequence where we went inside of people's houses and heard a commentary sountrack from unseen voices who made pronouncements on what class the occupants were; we filmed a story in London that showed a comparison with the US and the UK; there was more stuff in the high school, and a great scene where two newlyweds argues over what class the other one was.
But then the movie would have been 3 hours!
Arlington, Va.:
The girl from rural Kentucky who moved to Washington, D.C. was interesting -- you must meet a million people like that in New York every day. Did she have an answer to the question of feeling like a stranger and fitting in with the people back home once you've left?
Louis Alvarez and Andrew Kolker: well, I think Dana will always be a fish out of water. She has gotten a little more used to DC by now, but it's hard to break those home ties. For us, it was the sheer pressure NOT to succeed in a Northern-urban style that made her story compelling.
Silver Spring, Md.:
Isn't it funny that we think of money being the primary factor in class, yet there are so many "upper class" folks with no money? Do you think you can fall out of your class?
Louis Alvarez and Andrew Kolker: Sure. Think of divorced women--they often find themselves without any support and fall very rapidly, often with kids to support. Others--black sheep maybe--like the idea of doing something that is below what was expected of them.
Arlington, Va.:
I didn't understand the part of your show when a consultant discussed upper class people's need for personal space in social situations. This woman had a measuring tape ... can you please elaborate? Do upper class people need more or less space?
Louis Alvarez and Andrew Kolker: her point was that 16" was a natural gap for upper-class people, and that someone trying to mix with the rich should try to instinctively sense how close to stand.
Woodbridge, Va.:
Were there things about class that you didn't get to explore?
Louis Alvarez and Andrew Kolker: Yes, there is no real political analysis in the film--we wanted to do something different. But there needs to be an accessible film which does this.
Washington, D.C.:
You've made films about politics, class and a bunch of other topics (looked at your Web site). What's next?
Louis Alvarez and Andrew Kolker: We don;t know what's next yet because we're in fundraising stages, but I would say the small, unimportant topics of race and sex (two different films) are likely to be next on our plate!
Washington, D.C.:
You've made films about politics, class and a bunch of other topics (looked at your Web site). What's next?
Louis Alvarez and Andrew Kolker: We don;t know what's next yet because we're in fundraising stages, but I would say the small, unimportant topics of race and sex (two different films) are likely to be next onour plate!
Virginia:
The U.S. is an economic class. Europe is a social class. We used education to get ahead while Europe used birth to get ahead.
Louis Alvarez and Andrew Kolker: that's true. it's changing slowly over there, though.
Frederick, Md.:
How long did it take to make this film? Have you checked back in with any of the people you talked to and found out what they're doing now?
Louis Alvarez and Andrew Kolker: It took about 3 years to make. Yes, we know about some of the characters--most are doing exactly what they were doing when we filmed them.
Washington, D.C.:
I've heard people rail against the idea of social class, but I think it's a natural thing when there's so many different people and so many different types of industry. Should we be aspiring to a class-free America?
Louis Alvarez and Andrew Kolker: well, we can aspire to it but we can;t escape it! Just think about your own extended family... there must be all sorts of class rivalries within it. It's human nature.
Los Angeles, Calif.:
So if it took three years to make this documentary, is that all you do for three years (not to discount your hard work)? Or are you also involved in other projects simultaneously?
Where do I sign up? I'm envious.
Louis Alvarez and Andrew Kolker: Actually, we made another film called "MOMS" which was on PBS in the middle of making People Like Us. Normally, we work on one film intensively at a time--but we do development for others simultaneously.
Los Angeles, Calif.:
I missed the documentary. Any footage in California or Los Angeles, in particular? Class is interesting here, probably quite different from older cities around the country. From my experience as a native here, it's easier to "move around." The boundaries are seamless it seems. Thoughts?
Louis Alvarez and Andrew Kolker: yes, the HOW TO MARRY THE RICH segment was in Beverly Hills. The west has traditionally been a place to start over again, but class distinctions live on there as well. Think about your LA zip code and what it says about you! Whether you;re a 310 (cool), a 323 (funky) or an 818(middle class)...
Fairfax, Va.:
The comments from the woman who left home to attend Antioch College hit home with me: I was the first woman in my extended family (where you graduate from high school, and get pregnant or get married) to move away and attend college, and I got a lot of subtle and overt flack from family about "being too good" for the state college in our area.
I struggle with this to this day: I'm uncomfortable around people who grew up middle class, and I'm sort of a freak back home (you don't see many 30-year-old unmarried, college-educated women without children). I volunteered on a fundraising committee for a homeless shelter here for a couple years and never lost the impression that I was the White Trash Representative. All the others were SUV-driving professionals who didn't know what is was like to make a choice between medical care and paying a bill, or paying a bill and eating a balanced meal. I frequently got angry because they just didn't GET IT: what some of the shelter's clients were going through.
Louis Alvarez and Andrew Kolker: your experiences are EXACTLY what we wanted to give voice to in the film. The SUV-ers probably never realized how insulting they were being.
New York, N.Y.:
Was there a type of story that you tried to find for the film but couldn't?
Louis Alvarez and Andrew Kolker: We wanted to film a sorority rush; we ALMOST got in. We would have liked to have done an immigrant story -- how newcomers figure out the rules of the game -- but never found the right one. We have pages and pages of "wouldn't it be nice?" notes...
Englewood, N.J.:
Class seems to be an important ingredient in minority communities; do you agree?
Louis Alvarez and Andrew Kolker: In many ways class is extra important in minority communities, as people try to distance themselves from low-status groups. This has been going on for a century in the US, most famously with the German Jews who were scandalized by the more peasanty Russian & Polish Jewish immigrants in the early 1900s.
Washington, D.C.:
The politics of class: are you talking about certain class types holding certain types of political views or voting a certain way? Or about how people who are involved probably need a certain economic or class status in order to get involved? (I.e., not every 21-year-old college grad can afford a Capitol Hill internship, etc.)
Louis Alvarez and Andrew Kolker: we did a film on politics (VOTE FOR ME) a couple of years ago, and found that political activity can be found among all classes. But certainly a lot of it is about opportunity, which means it's not exempt from the class forces that affect other aspects of our society.
Chicago, Ill.:
Aaaargh! Sorority rush! Those songs still ring in my head, and I lived across the street!
Do you think we see class for what it is in this country, or do you think that we have illusions about it?
Louis Alvarez and Andrew Kolker: I think we just don't talk about it. Someone told us that this was a great date movie, because after it was over they could get into new personal territory -- it brings up all sorts of memories and feelings. We hope that a lot of discussions will ensue after the TV is turned off.
Alexandria, Va.:
The thing I thought was funniest about the kids in Texas was that they were driving these wildly expensive cars that Daddy bought them, and they clearly thought that they were being responsible by buying their own gas.
Louis Alvarez and Andrew Kolker: Yes, there is a certain sense of privilege that they possess. It's not they are bad kids--they just have lived rather sheltered lives I think.
Charlestown, W.Va.:
Do you think we tend to split more across class lines, or race or religion? Because regardless of whether we like to admit it, class is part of our identity probably so firmly we may not realize it.
Louis Alvarez and Andrew Kolker: I guess our poinr is that we are bound by class way more than we think. This is not to downgrade race or religion or geography, but we need to think about how our class makes us who we are.
Arlington, Va.:
My husband's from Ireland, but went to university and worked in England, and had an extremely difficult time trying to climb the professional ladder because his family was poor and so he didn't have the connections. He got fed up and moved to the U.S., and ZOOM -- shot right up that darned ladder because of his hard work and intelligence. He loves America simply because you are recognized for what you can do, not who your family is.
Louis Alvarez and Andrew Kolker: Yes by comparison to England and other European countries, the US is a paradise. We actually shot a sequence in LOndon which we unfortunately had to drop from the final show--but it showed people with a very highly tuned sense of class and the limitations it posed for them.
Arlington, Va.:
No question -- just a comment. Watching Joe Queenan walk through Williams-Sonoma puzzling over different size whisks was worth the price of admission. Really funny.
Louis Alvarez and Andrew Kolker: yes, Joe's a real gem. We have two hours of hilarious outtakes.
Atlanta, Ga.:
I don't mean to put everything on parents all the time, because they're not the only influence kids have. But do you think that parents could keep the attitudes about class -- like those kids in Austin -- to a minimum? We all want our kids not to have hardship or want for anything, but I think maybe the sheltered life isn't exactly doing them a favor either.
Louis Alvarez and Andrew Kolker: It's a hard question--everyone wants the best for their kids--but what that best is open to interpretation. I would think that you'd want to expose your kids to different kinds of people and experiences--but where do you draw the line. Ultimately, kids are going to do what they want to anyway.
Brooklyn, N.Y.:
It occurs to me that you failed to explore the concept of "pecking order" in this otherwise excellent documentary. Can you address this omission?
Gracie in Brooklyn
Louis Alvarez and Andrew Kolker: Well, you know, birds of feather do flock together, don't they?
washingtonpost.com:
That wraps up today's show. Thanks to everyone who joined the
discussion.
Stay tuned to Live Online:
Advice:
Carolyn Hax at 3 p.m. EDT
The
Local Economy at 3 p.m. EDT
Horoscopes:
Charlene Lichtenstein at 6 p.m. EDT
Live Online Special Coverage: America
Attacked
Did you know that you can follow more than one Live Online discussion at
the same time? Just open another browser window and toggle back and
forth between discussions! And, if you miss one, catch up with the Live
Online transcripts.
Keep up with the latest in news, sports, politics and entertainment with
washingtonpost.com
e-mail newsletters.
NEW! Personalize your Post with mywashingtonpost.com.
Get customized news, traffic, weather and more.
| |
© Copyright 2002 The Washington Post Company | 
