Sally Squires

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The Lean Plate Club
With Sally Squires
Washington Post Staff Writer
Tuesday, Nov. 6, 2001; 1 p.m. EST

Welcome to The Lean Plate Club, hosted by Washington Post health and nutrition writer Sally Squires. On Tuesdays at 1 p.m. ET, Sally leads a discussion for people who want to eat healthier, move around more and otherwise get better but not bigger. We're not about fad diets or crash weight-loss plans; we're about eating wisely and living healthy for the long haul.

We want to hear from you -- your tips, strategies, meal plans, successes, warnings, setbacks and more. Of course Sally will be happy to answer questions, and turn others over to the Club. None of this, of course, is a substitute for medical advice.

Health section editor Craig Stoltz will join Sally sometimes. He has none of Sally's impressive credentials but labors under a decade-long medical directive to control his weight and eat wisely, takes a statin to lower his blood cholesterol and keeps track of everything he eats on a Palm handheld computer, a fact most of his acquaintances no longer find interesting.

The transcript follows.

Editor's Note: Washingtonpost.com moderators retain editorial control over Live Online discussions and choose the most relevant questions for guests and hosts; guests and hosts can decline to answer questions.

Sally Squires: Welcome back to the Lean Plate Club. We're having some computer glitches here today, so bear with me if things don't go as usual. Also, if the member who wrote about establishing the smoothie bar in their office is still out there, send me your e-mail because you're the winner of the Apple Cookbook by Olwen Woodier. Otherwise, it'll be back up for grabs next week. Now, we've got a number of questions waiting, so here we go.

Dupont Circle: Sally, I am so glad to discover your online chat -- and looking forward to more of your insightful answers to those of us who want to move more and eat better.

I, too, am a Firm video devotee, but alas have become quite the couch potato in the last few years. My question: what is your suggestion to ease back into an exercise routine, specifically with the Firm tapes? I know I shouldn't be doing the Total Body workouts with weights in succession to give the body a chance to recover. What should I realistically shoot for, and are there specific tapes you recommend? I have the oldies but goodies: Volume 1 to Volume 6, with the short Volume 4 being my fave.

Also, do you know if there are any women-only health clubs downtown or in Maryland that closely resembles the Firm routines? Lastly, what is your opinion of Pilates?

Sally Squires: Thanks Dupont. I really enjoy doing this chat, so I'm glad that you find it useful too. Now, as for getting more active. You're absolutely right: you will want to ease into activity, particularly if you have been a couch potato for a few years. Where to start with the Firm? The same place that you'd start with any exercise program. Slowly. Do activities gradually, but do them consistently and every day, if you can.

How about starting with a five minute walk twice a day for a week? Keep a log. Double your time the second week and so on. If you like the Firm, then you might try the Firm Basics, which are slightly easier than the original Volumes 1-6. But don't limit yourself to any one program. Explore: take some new classes. Splurge for an hour session with a personal trainer and get some new ideas. Here's one workbook to check out: Active Every Day Living: 20 Weeks to Lifelong Vitality by Steve Blair, Andrea Dunn, Bess Marcus, Ruth Ann Carpenter and Peter Jaret of the Cooper Institute in Dallas (which is well known for exercise research.) It's available from Human Kinetics for $21.95. (www.humankinetics.com)

As for Pilates: I've never done a full session, but from the bits and pieces I've tried--and some reading that I've done--it seems really interesting. It can be pricey, however, so if you're curious, check out Pilates for Beginners by Kellina Stewart. It's a "stand-up" book that will allow you to try the Pilates moves for just $21.95. It's published by HarperResource.

Washington, D.C.: Sally, about eight months ago (maybe more), the Health section ran a formula which allows a person to calculate how many calories they should consume to maintain their weight as well as lose weight. I have searched the archives to no avail. Do you happen to know what that forumula is? Thanks!

Sally Squires: Hey Washington. I think we've run this formula both in the Health section and mentioned it on-line. First, losing a pound requires a deficit of either food, exercise or a combination of both, of about 3,500 calories. Everybody is different, of course, but if you want to estimate how many calories you need daily, multiply your weight in pounds by 10. So if you weigh 150 pounds, you need about 1,500 calories.

Then you have to take into account activity. If you're sedentary, add about 20 to 40 percent more calories for daily activities. If you're moderately active, you can add about 40-60 percent of calories, and if you're really active--and let's not kid ourselves here, not many of us are--then you can add 60 to 80 percent more calories. If you want to make it really simple: figure that you probably need somewhere between 1,500 to 2,000 calories a day. If you can shave 250 calories from eating less and exercise about 250 calories more per day, you can achieve about a one pound weight loss per week.

Alexandria, Va.: Sally, the concept of this discussion is great. But I must take issue with your advocacy of low-fat or non-fat dairy products. Even though they are better than their high-fat counterparts, dairy products of any kind are not meant for human consumption. It's not complicated: Cow's milk is for baby cows, not humans! 75 percent of humans are lactose intolerant, and it's easy to see why: They're consuming the milk of another species. Nowhere in nature does that happen except as the result of the dairy industry. Dairy consumption causes excess mucus, bloating, gas, constipation and weight gain. Please refrain from advising people to eat even non-fat cheese and yogurt, and go with their soy alternatives instead. Thank you.

Sally Squires: Alexandria, looks like we'll have a good interaction going here, because I'm going to have to take exception with you, too. There are many, many cultures that have lived very well for thousands of years on dairy products. So I don't agree with you based on that fact and the large amount of scientific research that's been done through the years.

Yes, you can live healthfully without dairy foods. But don't oversell soy either. Some researchers are realy worried that with soy showing up in everything from cereal to desserts that we could overconsume that too. That could raise the risk of breast cancer for some women, and its probably not a good idea for those women who take tamoxifen -- for example. It may also not be so good for some men because of the risk of prostate cancer.

The bottom line -- balance and moderation.

McLean, Va.: I drink coffee with a lot of skim milk in it. Am I kidding myself by thinking that the extra calcium offsets the caffein/osteoporosis effects?

washingtonpost.com: Sally talked about the risks of coffee in today's "Lean Plate Club" column.

Sally Squires: In short, yes. You probably are kidding yourself. So do you have to give up coffee? Not necessarily. The study today says that 2 1/2 cups a day of coffee were linked to bone loss. But the most affected were those with a rare genetic type found in just 10 percent of participants. Since its not easy to know if you fall into that group, what do you do?

Be sure to get 1200 mg a day of calcium. Figure at least two to three servings per day of dairy products. One cup equals one serving. Think about other calcium sources such as fortified orange juice or other products. Consider a calcium supplement and try to slowly switch to some decaf. The study found that two cups a day of coffee seemed to be okay.

Anchorage, Alaska: Help! My husband and I are going to Hawaii, no kids for seven whole days! But I've been working so hard at losing weight and it takes my body ages to lose a pound, even with lots of exercise, that the thought of seven days of endless temptations is overwhelming to me. Any suggestions?

Sally Squires: What a wonderful trip! Sounds really fantastic, but I hear your concern about blowing all your hard work.

Here's what you want to do: Plan. Start now. (and you're going to hear more about planning next week in the health section for the holidays).

Allow yourself a reasonable number of calories every day. But put a limit on your celebration. Remember you can't eat everything and go easy on the alcohol. So, if you have a pina colada by the pool, don't have dessert and exercise a lot -- which will help keep you busy and away from food.

Low Calories: Sally, I am about 15 pounds over my ideal weight and it is so hard to lose it. I am a very busy person, I am a single mom of a 2-year-old with a fulltime job so I really don't have much time for exercise. I am trying to cut down on my calories by skipping the bread and all the trimmings on my lunch sandwiches (just meat and cheese), been drinking a lot of water and a very light meal (usually fruit, or egg or some type of vegetable). What else can you suggest to speed up the process? I am getting frustrated. I have been doing this for two months now and haven't lost a single pound. Thanks!

Sally Squires: Hey Low Calories, first lets step back. Reading between the lines I'm guessing that you're very busy and probably stressed. So, first look at how long it took you to put the weight on. Two months is not a long time to try to lose 15 pounds. You may not be successful at first, but the weight didn't go on overnight either.

Add more fruits and vegetables to your daily eating plan. Cook on the weekends when you can. I try to roast chicken on Sunday and we eat it all week long, so there's something on hand. Think soup, stews, crock pot.

Make sure you get enough sleep, which won't be easy. And team up with a friend to take your kids outdoors and get more activity. Join a babysitting co-op or something that will you out regularly to get more activity.

Washington, D.C.: I'm fifty pounds overweight. Every day for lunch I have an apple, yogurt, and a PBJ sandwich (whole wheat, of course). I just ran out of peanut butter. Should I buy more?

Sally Squires: Dear Washington, absolutely you should buy peanut butter because there should be no forbidden foods. You don't mention activity. Are you exercising? If you're not, you want to start to do something every day. Even if its just for a couple of minutes.

As for that lunch: There's nothing wrong with it, but you could be a lot more creative and probably feel fuller and get a more balanced diet if you alternate salads, soups, another kind of sandwich with that PB&J. You'll also save some significant calories and fat.

Arlington, Va.: Tell the anti-farmer person to quit spewing vegan propaganda. They are using incorrect numbers and outright lies to destroy family farms.

Sally Squires: You have a point.

I love dairy! Are 75% of the population lactose intolerant, as your early poster suggests, or do they THINK they are lactose intolerant? either way, I take issue with that figure. Too many people are swearing off dairy, to the detriment of their bone density. This is a big issue for women. We need the calcium and cow's milk is an excellent source.

Sally Squires: There's a growing debate about that and the other interesting thing is that studies of the Masai tribe in Africa, who are supposed to be lactose intolerant, find that when milk is a very big part of their diet and they develop the ability to digest it and don't have any problems from it.

Washington, D.C.: I am slighty low in iron and would prefer to fix this with food than supplements. What are some high-iron foods (other than liver, which I love but is high cholesterol)?

Sally Squires: Some leafy green vegetables can be rich in Iron. Spinach is one. Leeks are another. And also most grain products are fortified with iron -- including cereals and breakfast bars. Some cereals as much 24 milligrams of iron for one cup serving.

No dairy?: The human body lacks the enzyme to digest beans. Does that mean it's wrong to include legumes in our diet? I think not.

Sally Squires: Thanks for weighing in.

Arlington, Va.: According to your weight loss #s, I should be shedding pounds like magic. I weigh ~250, and eat less than 2000 calories per day, as well as walk at least a mile per day. Per your formula, I should be able to eat between 3000 calories per day (assuming the most sendentary lifestyle) and 3500 per day (with the least sendetary lifestyle) just to maintain my weight... I'm starving myself by your formula and can barely drop a pound. What gives? Do some of us really have messed up metabolisms? I know the scrawny people don't want to admit that they are skinny just by the grace of God, but if your numbers are right, that seems to be the answer. Or were your numbers incorrect?

Sally Squires: Have you ever been on a very low calorie diet? Have you been on many different types of diets to try to lose weight for a long time? It could be that you fall into a group of people that may need some special help getting back on track. We've written about this in the health section in a story by Katherine Tallmadge, a registered dietitian in Washington. Consider talking to your doctor or a registered dietitian and also remember that while you're walking a mile a day that only burns about 150 to 200 calories. So, you may need more exercise, but take a closer look at what you're eating -- in short, a composition of the foods. ANd you may want to think about weight lifting, muscle burns more calories than fat.

Lunchables Question: Hi Sally,

For lunch, I often grab a Low-Fat Lunchables thing. I love cheese and crackers and this is a small portion with fat-free pudding, lean ham and a Capri Sun drink. Is this an awful lunch? It is low in calories (about 300 -- less than what I would normally eat) and low in fat. Carbs... OK. Would I do better if I bought everything separately and put it together? I just think I'd overeat by doing that.

Sally Squires: There's nothing wrong with this lunch. But you could get a lot more variety from sometimes packing your own. Remember that the more varied foods you eat, the wider range of vitamins and minerals you get. And study after study shows that most of the health benefits of foods are coming from the foods themselves and not from supplements.

So, by varying your diet you could have a wider range of vitamins and minerals and also a more interesting meal. But if it works for you and you're losing weight than stick with it for a while and see how you do.

re; Anchorage going to Hawaii: I was just in Maui a few months ago (so I'm very jealous) but...there are so many active outdoor exercise-y things to do in Hawaii that I don't think Anchorage should be worried. If you read about the places you are going to I'm sure you will find so many things you want to do that involve physical activity. I'm not talking about difficult things here but snorkeling and walking on trails comes to mind. You won't even want to lounge by the pool. Have fun!

Sally Squires: Thanks much, great advice.

Healthy in Hawaii: To the person who was worried about ruining all the hard healthy work on vacation in Hawaii: Hawaii is a great place to be healthy! My husband and I lost weight on our last trip there! First of all, it is a great place to be active - the hiking, swimming, etc are fantastic. Maybe don't spend all your time lounging by the pool and get out there and see some of what's off the beaten path! Second, there is so much wonderful fresh food there - I have never eaten so much fresh fish and fruit in my life! If you can, pick up some groceries locally, like fruit and other snacks, and store in your hotel room (especially if you have a fridge or kitchenette) to save both money (meals are so expensive there) and temptation! I'm still thinking about all the yummy fruit smoothies we had there.

Sally Squires: Great point, and remember, too, that there's lots of fresh fish to eat as well as those fruits and vegetables so you can really eat a lot of great food for fewer calories. But, again, be careful on the alcohol that can lower your resolve and add a lot of unwanted calories.

For "Low Calories": Just wanted to offer some other insight, Sally. Could it be that "low calories" isn't losing any weight because she is not eating enough? I have heard that you need the fat and calories (in moderation, of course) to sustain your body as well. If you are trying to lose weight by not eating a lot, your body will go into starvation mode and slow down your metabolism. That surely won't work!! So, get your calories and fat in with good choices of food that Sally already suggested.

Sally Squires: Yes, that's part of what the article by Katherine Tallmadge talked about. It's important to eat enough calories every day and divide them into at least three equal portions -- and maybe up to four or five. Thanks.

Arlington, Va.: Hi Sally,

I'm seven months pregnant and feel great - healthier than I have ever felt in my life in fact. Luckily my cravings have been heavy on the fruit and veggies (which is not so different than pre-pregnancy). Last night I really started craving something sweet-cake or brownie like. (Preferably chocolate). I would like to indulge in something (even make it myself) but my husband is trying to lose some weight so I'd like to be able to share this goodie with him. Any tips on some low/non fat desserts I could whip up?

Thank you.

Sally Squires: How about chocolate pudding made with skim milk. YOu might try chocolate sorbet. Even better -- non-fat chocolate ice cream. Or low-fat ice cream with calcium, important while you're pregnant.

In past Lean Plate discussions we've talked about hot chocolate which can satisfy a sweet tooth. And sometimes, just a chocolate graham cracker will do the trick. But if you really want to indulge, buy a small piece of really wonderful chocolate, have one ounce and enjoy and savor every bit.

Lunchables: The person who's drinking a Capri Sun every day should read the label - almost no redeeming nutritional value, lots of sugar. Didn't the association of pediatricians just come out with a policy that juice isn't all that good for children because of its high sugar content? You might as well drink a soda. Just a tip.

Sally Squires: Good point. Certainly juices and soda have higher sugar contents. A good alternative might be a calcium fortified orange juice. Water's also a good alternative and remember that soft drinks that have caffeine get into that same question of depletion of calcium from the bones, even if it's a diet drink.

Tired: Hi Sally-

Now that it's dark early, I'm doubly less inclined to eat right and exercise. I don't belong to a gym and DO NOT do well with getting up early. In the summer it was easy to motivate myself to go running - because when I got home from work it was still warm and sunny - and I knew I'd be in shorts and a tank that weekend.

How do I get out of this fall-winter slump and get myself motivated again? I can literally feel my muscles going slack but that in and of itself isn't doing the motivational trick. Any advice?

Sally Squires: Dear Tired, you're not alone. Lots of people struggle with this and the shortening days are only going to get worse for a while, so you want to take steps now. ANd literally do that. Start walking at lunch -- no excuses. Commit to 10 minutes a day and make sure if you've got a sedentary job, that you get up for five minutes every hour and just do a loop around the office. See if that helps you start to feel better. Experts have found that if you can walk for at least 10 minutes that you'll start to feel psychological benefits and that'll make it easier to go from 10 to 20 minutes and pretty soon you could be doing it regularly.

Is there a sport or another activity that you've always wanted to try? Whether it's yoga or tap dancing, look for a class or a free trial or find a partner and try something completely new and see if that helps jumpstart your program.

Re; pregnant and healthy: You may also want to whip up a chocolate angel food cake, which I don't have a recipe for but you should be able to find one on-line. I think the recipe calls for cocoa, which is non to low-fat, and angel food cake mix, which is fat free. You could top it with berries and fat-free cool whip if you wanted it to look really "bad".

Sally Squires: Great idea! Sounds delicious. Can you make me some?

Low Fat and Chocolate : There is a No-Pudge Brownie mix at Trader Joe's that only calls for fat free vanilla yogurt to be added to the mix - the batter is thick like cement but the finished product is a fudgy brownie - yummy! You honestly can't tell that it's fat free.

Sally Squires: Great! Thanks for participating.

Suitland, Md.: For the woman who is concerned about getting more iron: keep in mind that tea and coffee inhibit your absorption of iron, so if you are drinking those with meals rich in iron, you won't be getting the full benefits. Also, iron inhibits your absorption of calcium, so keep that in mind as well.

Sally Squires: Good point. It can interact with calcium, soy, Cipro and many other drugs and foods. And remember it's not usually recommended for post-menopausal women or for men.

Pilates: For the chatter interested in Pilates:

Go to gaiam.com and peruse their selection of tapes. They are home to "Living Arts" and have tons of books and excellent videos on yoga and Pilates. I would recommend taking a class in Pilates to begin with because many of the concepts are difficult to grasp without an instructor. I took Pilates and as a former dancer found some of the exercises difficult at first. But they were difficult because there were certain adjustments in posture and positioning you had to make that just weren't obvious at first- not because you had to contort yourself or anything like that. Hope this makes sense. Pilates is especially good for targeting areas- like the thighs. Honestly, I find yoga to be a better workout and easier to begin on one's own. But Pilates is great for variety.

Sally Squires: Thanks Pilates! These sound like great resources.

Low fat desserts:
You wouldn't think it, but I found this great chocolate cheesecake thing on a low-carb bulletin board. It's gelatin mixed into boiling water, nutrasweet (Equal), cream cheese (I used the fat free kind) and baking chocolate (one square). It's a pretty common recipe in the low-carb circuit; a simple Google search should find it.

Sally Squires: Sounds tempting. One caution, however about the aspartame for pregnant women. I haven't looked at the most recent evidence, but when I was pregnant, it was something that I avoided after talking Richard Wurtman, a researcher at MIT. I'd want to take a closer look.

Washington, D.C.: Sally - enjoy the chats! Thanks very much for taking the time with us. I would like to praise the one phrase you mentioned earlier: that "there are no forbidden foods". I have done lots of work with people that have had binge eating disorders and other eating disorders, and one fascinating thing that I have noticed is that total denial of certain foods will inevitably lead to destructive binges, which in turn lead to more dangerous dieting, and it is a most vicious downward spiral. Often people who fall in this category impose on themselves most strict regulations about legal and illegal foods and calorie intake, and then severely punish themselves for even the slightest mess-up.

Again, I find that the best way to maintain a healthy diet is to monitor your eating habits, in that one should eat at fixed times during the day and try not to eat in between those periods, and DON'T DO ANYTHING ELSE WHILE YOU ARE EATING, and really listen to your body when it tells you it is full. Most importantly, ALL foods are "legal"! I corner square of chocolate after a meal is a nice way to end the meal and will satisfy the sweet craving, undoubtedly. Many people that have suffered from binge eating disorders, upon "legalizing" foods, intitially go a bit crazy on all the things they had forbidden themselves in the past, and may even gain weight at first, but then when the novelty wears off, they will actually crave healthier foods.

The human body is so fascinating; we always try to fight biology, but we can never win!

Sally Squires: All good points. Well said. Thanks.

A vent from downtown D.C.: Sally, I just have to vent! I have seen my weight creep up a bit over the past year or two (I'm 27) so I've been turning it up on the exercise and eating healthy. I am the queen of bringing healthy lunches and snacks to work. (today: baked chicken with a sauce made of salsa, mustard, and a bit of sugar, and roasted butternut squash chunks, plus an apple and super healthy oatmeal cookies made with oat bran for snacks.) But what bugs me is my 24-year old male coworker who eats McDonald's nearly two times a day. Yup, breakfast and lunch. If he doesn't have McDonald's he has pizza. I'm not exaggerating. I am so focused on trying to be healthy that it drives me nuts to see him sucking down another double cheeseburger. What kills me even more is that he is slim, trim, and nary a blemish nor sallow skin to indicate his total lack of nutrition. Today he just mentioned that his girlfriend (who is equally thin and beautiful) is a junk food nut who loves to go to the movies and have popcorn and candy for dinner. Argh! It takes all my energy to not make snide comments about how unhealthy those habits are. Why is life unfair? Why do I eat healthy and struggle to exercise only to see slow results, and yet these two remain alarmingly perfect with the worst possible habits?

Thanks for letting me vent. I think I'll go walk around the block now and burn some calories (and stress.)

Sally Squires: Just remember that for most people this kind of eating can't last forever. It's why our country is facing an obesity epidemic. Also, men have more muscle mass than women. That's one way that they can eat more calories. But you're right. Life isn't fair.

Washington, D.C.: In response to Anchorage, Alaska's worries about weight gain on vacation -- it's vacation! It's seven days with your husband in Hawaii and no kids. I've been there when it comes to worrying about eating new things and having to deviate from my exercise plan. But giving yourself a little freedom to enjoy without worry is something we all need, especially on a trip that may be once in a lifetime. Just have fun!

Sally Squires: Yes, it is the time to have fun, Washington. And especially these days, we all need to remember that.

Suitland, Md.: For all those couch potatoes/TV addicts, one thing that may make you enjoy walking more is listening to books on tape on a walkman as you walk (get the unabridged versions from your local library!). You will get absorbed in the stories, just like a good tv show, and want to keep going!

Sally Squires: I've done this Suitland after John Foreyt, a clinical psychologist and weight loss expert recommended it to me several years ago. I've "read" a number of great books, borrowed from the public library. It's really fun and it can sure make the Stairmaster--or walking or rowing or anything else--go a lot faster!

Recipe : Hi Sally,

Just wanted to share with you and the chatters a delicious squash soup I made last week. I quartered one hubbard and one acorn squash and cooked them on the stovetop with some chicken broth, some onion, a granny smith apple, cinnamon, and crushed red pepper. after the squash and apple got tender I pureed it in the food processor. It is delicious and perfect on a fall day. I had a bit for dinner last night and also brought in a small serving for lunch. It counts towards my five a day and also helps to fill me up and not eat junk.

Sally Squires: Yum! I'm going to the grocery store today you're inspiring me to try this. Sounds really good. Thanks.

Farragut North, D.C.: Hi Sally,
I have a friend who has lost a substantial amount of weight through diet and exercise, and just recently found out she was using an ephedra (ma huang) supplement plus chromium picolinate.
I know there's been a lot of negative news surrounding ephedra, and was wondering if there are any guidelines out there on its use--never use at all, in small quantities, never with caffeine, hypertensive meds, etc.? Is there a safe way to use ma huang?
I'm asthmatic and am wary of it. As for chromium, how safe and effective can it be as part of a weight loss program?

Sally Squires: Farragut: Ephedra can be quite dangerous. The Post and other news organizations have reported on deaths linked with ephedra. Stay clear, particularly if you have other chronic conditions, such as asthma.

To the Anti-dairy person: Here we go again. More arrogance and self-righteousness. Give it a rest, already. You're entitled to your opinions -- eat what you want and leave what you want alone. But give the rest of us the same respect. You would undoubtedly take exception with someone trying to dictate that you should eat animal products, yet here you go trying to impose your personal views to the contrary on the rest of us. And with such supreme sancitmoniousness. The irony seems lost on no one but you.

Sally Squires: Clearly, this issue touches chords in all of us.

Washington, D.C.: Sally,

I'm a 23 y/o female in decent shape but I want to tone (read: define and slim down) specific portions of my body, namely abs and thighs. I'd also like to be in better health overall. I haven't worked out regularly in about three months so the little extra fat I seem to have picked up has only come since then. Is there a great videotape or website where you suggest I start out? And do you know of the best tapes or programs specifically for abs and thighs? Thank you!

Sally Squires: There's no one program for anyone. But it seems that a combination of aerobics and weight lifting plus stretching for flexibility really beneficial.

Sally Squires: We're out of time folks and still have a number of questions left. Sorry not to get to them all today, but we've been having computer problems throughout this chat. Kudos and thanks to stalwart producer Liz O'Leary for typing my dictated answers to some of these questions when my computer became uncooperative. Watch next week's Health section and this chat for a special Holiday challenge. Same place, same time next week (hopefully sans any computer hiccups!) Cheers!

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