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From Kindergarten to
College
Families... And So On:
Preteen Years: Fitting in.
With Jacqueline L. Salmon
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, Aug. 30, 2001; 1 p.m. EDT
How do you talk to your kids about cliques, bullies and fitting in? Join Post Metro reporter Jacqui Salmon and her guest Margaret Sagarese talk about the hard-age of being a preteen in Middle school.
Sagarese is the co-author of "Cliques: 8 Steps to Help Your
Child Survive the Social Jungle," a book that helps parents and young teenagers to cope with the middle-school traumas of being excluded, taunted and bullied. Submit your questions in advance or during the hour.
Sagarese is also a co-author of "The Roller Coaster
Years" and "Parenting 911." Both have authored several other books on
parenting topics. Giannetti, the mother of two teenaged children, lives in
New York City. Sagarese has a teenaged daughter and lives on Long Island. They host a weekly on-line chat on iVillages' "Parent Soup."
Families...and So On, hosted by Washington Post families reporter Jacqueline L. Salmon, is a free-ranging and freewheeling look at the American family. This is the place to talk about the burning issues facing the 21st century family.
Editor's Note: Washingtonpost.com moderators retain editorial control over Live Online discussions and choose the most relevant questions for guests and hosts; guests and hosts can decline to answer questions.
Jacqui Salmon:
Hi, folks. We'll get started shortly.
Jacqui Salmon:
We're having a few technical difficlties. But keep those questions coming, and we'll start very shortly
Jacqui Salmon:
Welcome, Margaret. We're here to talk about the challenges of middle schoolers (kids who are generally between the ages of 11-14).
Your book, "Cliques"is very grim, Margaret! You describe a world where children are endlessly teased, harrassed and assaulted. They are confined to rigid cliques that punish members who are "different." You say that children are subject to a "steady diet of debilitating ridicule" and that is it a "silent shame, a national scandal."
Is it really that bad at ALL schools?
Margaret Sagarese: Yes, it's that bad. And it's not just may opinion. It's the opinion of many other people in middles schools.
On Tuesday, for example, I was in Connecticut and teachers at one school described hte kids as "ruthless." And I heard that all over the country.
Mount Vernon, NY:
How do you help your child when she has "no" friends. It's the summer and she graduted from 6th grade but no one has called to see how her summer was going or to set up a girls day. This bothers me as a mother.
Margaret Sagarese: Talk to her about why she has no friends. Ask teachers if it's true that she doesn't have any friends. Sometimes kids say they have no friends, but they mean they don't have friends that they'd like to have.
Be understanding. DOn'tdisagree.Children who are loners, studies say, have parents who are more apt to not take their children's complaints like these seroiusly.
Help your child find a club, a community program, an outside-school activity to join to possibly find a new group of friends.
Find out why she's unpopular. Is it temperment? Clothing? s she too smart? Too pretty? Be supportive. Help hre find activities and help her identify the problemms that are standing in her way, socially.
Alexandria, VA:
How do you talk to daughters about sexual harassment in the schools? I had to deal with unwanted grabbing and comments about my body frequently in high school, but it never occurred to me that that behavior wasn't supposed to be happening. (I'd been brainwashed with the "boys will be boys, so let them do what they want" concept years before.) I refuse to let my daughters go through the same thing. Along the same lines, what do you do when school officials won't take complaints seriously, short of homeschooling?
Margaret Sagarese: Document the incidents and have your daughter write down the day or time, any lewd gestures or remarks, who is responsible for this --whether it be one boy or one group. Make sure she is specific. Hand over those documents to the principal with a reminder that if he doesn't take action, he is liable to lawsuits. They have to take action against sexual harassment. Encourage the school district to educate the staff and highlight policy and make it clear, real and have a system set up. Let students know how to register a complaint, have a forum, have teachers and administrators take the complaint. Get the PTA moving on this issue.
Reston, Va.:
Could you please give your opinion on whether or not students placed in learning disabled classes are perceived by other students as being "not as smart" and singled out for ridicule, bullying, etc.?
Fairfax County places a large percentage of its students in learning disabled classes and keeps them in the program for years, even when students perform at or above grade level, because the school district receives an additional $6,000+ per year over and above the $4,000+ it receives for other students.
If a student is placed in learning disabled classes in the third grade and is kept in it until they graduate, the school district receives an additional $60,000 for this student's education. I don't think the taxpayers are getting their money's worth. But worse than that, students think they aren't as smart as other students, even if the problem was created by poor teaching in the first three grades.
Do you think this classification of students creates social and emotional problems for the student?
Jacqui Salmon:
I can't confirm whether the county gets more money for a disabled child, but the question is good. Do LD kids get more grief than other kids?
Margaret Sagarese: This is an interesting questions. LD questions get grief. Other kids get grief for other reasons.
Being beautiful, having a voluptuous figure, having acne, or having a learning disabilities are all reasons that kids may get teased. Having special classes helps those students but I wouldn't change the school's class considerations. The way to stop teasing is to sensitize all students.
Margaret Sagarese: I would not report the teacher, not yet. Too often parents and teachers act like adversaries. Of course, this teacher's behavior is not right, but can you be sure your daughter's story is exact. I would in a few weeks go and meet with the teacher and try to discuss the information you received. Teachers and parents need to respect and help one another. Otherwise, our children, their students will NEVER learn.
Washington, D.C.:
I'm not at all surprised by the cliques you see in schools--the same phenomenon is alive and well in the workplace, just with the kinder names of "office politics." I caught myself wondering the other day why I passed a group of women returning from lunch, and why didn't they invite me, even though I've invited them out before and they just ignored my email...after a moment I realized how silly I was being. But it's definitely a human phenomenon, regardless of the age. Teaching kids to manage these situations will help them later on in life.
Margaret Sagarese: Washington, D.C. You are right on target. Cliques and mean behavior are everywhere---in the office, the PTA, and clubs in our communities. We have to model and teacher civil and cordial behavior. We can respect differences and be congengial and still have those special friends. Thanks.
Virginia:
With all the violence that is happening in schools, how can I have my child feel safe and talk to me at the same time?
Margaret Sagarese: By reassuring your child that you are the adult and you will do everything necessary to keep her safe and her school community a safe haven. School safety is a job for adults, it is not a job for our children. Just let her know that if anything bothers her, or anyone scares her, to report it to an adult, a teacher, administrator and of course you. Meanwhile check out our books to make sure your school is going everything it can to create a safe enviroment.
Prince Frederick, Maryland:
My daughter is in 8th grade, in middle school this year. On the first day of school, one of her teachers came on alittle too strong, and I feel was a form of bullying itself. She also asked the students who was allowed to come home with an "E" on their reportcard. Some students raised their hands. Then she asked who was allowed to come home with a "D". More students raised their hands (my daugher was waiting for the "c") but before she said How many "c's" the teacher said "Well, atleast now I know what kind of ignorant parents I am working with". I think that is a horrible first impression that I have of that teacher, and I was wondering would you bring it up at "parent's night" next week, or would you "let it go"? I am sure my daughter would just die if she knew I brought it up for fear of being "singled out" by the teacher, for having a complaining parent. What's your opinion?
Margaret Sagarese: Margaret Sagarese: I would not report the teacher, not yet. Too often parents and teachers act like adversaries. Of course, this teacher's behavior is not right, but can you be sure your daughter's story is exact. I would in a few weeks go and meet with the teacher and try to discuss the information you received. Teachers and parents need to respect and help one another. Otherwise, our children, their students will NEVER learn.
Jacqui Salmon:
Did the massacre at Columbine High make any difference in the attitudes of parents and teachers? It seems to me that they aren't taking this bullying/clique issue very seriously even now.
Margaret Sagarese: It is sad but true that the Columbine tragedy didn't do enough to change things. In our book Cliques, we quote a survivor who says things haven't changed at all! It is our responsibility, each of us, to insist that the culture of cruelty be changed. We must actively nudge schools to become safer, kinder, more humane places. It's a hard task, but together we can do it. Cliques has 8 steps to follow and programs to get going in your schools.
Jacqui Salmon:
Margaret, this is a topic that's especially interesting to me because my oldest daughter is entering 7th grade next week.
Is there anything I can do NOW to help prepare her for this environment that you describe?
Margaret Sagarese: Absolutely, prepared children will be better equipped. Let your child tell you about the social climate. Who is popular. Why? Discuss all this with her. Commend her on her social observations and acuity. Teach her to evaluate popularity--what characteristics merit it. Have her tell you who her friends are. Talk about what makes good friends. Take her with you and your friends to model what friends do for each other and give to one another. Let her be on the frontier of introducing programs to create kinder schools---a respect club. a lunchtime club. a peace place---all these are discussed in Cliques.
Jacqui Salmon:
If your child isn't fitting in, and you determine that his/her appearance might be part of the reason, is it appropriate to go out and buy them, say, more trendy clothes, and maybe even suggest a more popular hairstyles.
Seems to me that that's overkill for parents. After all, you don't want to give your child the impression that appearance is everything. Does it send the wrong message to your child? That appearance is everything.
Margaret Sagarese: In middle school especially, there is a range of appropriate dress, hygiene, and hair styling. You don't have to turn your child into something he or she is not, but if they don't fit into the large range of choices---from preppie, alternative, sporty, etc. you should get them a new pair of sneakers or a hair cut. Small changes can make them feel more confident. Confidence goes along way in helping a child become more comfortable socially.
Jacqui Salmon:
Is bullying a bigger problem with boys or girls? The steretype is a big guy who pushes everyong around. Is it the same for girls?
Margaret Sagarese: The old big male bully is still around, but bullying comes in new faces and new behaviors. Studies say the most common bully today is the popular, white jock. And girls bully very effectively in groups. Nothing is more painful than being singled out for shunning and ridicule by a group of girls.
Jacqui Salmon:
What about workshops or classes for kids in this age group to, as you say, sensitize them to this issue. Are there any out there?
Margaret Sagarese: Charlene and I have been doing into middle schools with a program called With Friends Like These to educate and equip kids grades 3- high school. If you want to learn more contact me at www.parenting911.com or at my e-mail Msagarese@aol.com
Jacqui Salmon:
Why are these kids so cruel? Has it always been that way? Seems to me I remember a lot of clique-ishness when I was in middle school, but there wasn't this level of ugliness.
Margaret Sagarese: Arlington, VA's experience was lucky. The good old days were good for some, not all. Today's kids are meaner! It's TV, movies, music everything. Survivor relishes shunning and exiling off the island. The weakest link ridicules. Judge Judy makes humiliation entertainment. TV sitcoms are really screenplays of sarcasm. Our kids learn a language of meanness, hostility, and cruelty. We have to undue that.
Jacqui Salmon:
Does the situation get any better in high school? Do kids finally settle down and quit torturing each other?
Margaret Sagarese: The rules of who's in and who's out are set in 5th grade. Oftentimes these rules and this caste system continues on through high school. However, as children move into the later teens they care less about what peer think and develop a stronger identity to fend off criticism. It is our job as parents to help our children learn who they are, how unique and special they are, and to learn to put other's opinions in their place.
Chantilly VA:
Is it ever appropriate for parents to talk to each other regarding actions of a Clique? My daughter was "dumped" by her best friend and clique. The best friend's mother is/was a friend of mine. Do we discuss it/get involved?
Margaret Sagarese: Some parents can discuss these kinds of fallouts objectively. Others get into catfights. You can try. If you fail, then get a group together and go to school to get programs in to change the climate at school. In Cliques we have a step 8 lobby for change--which gives exact directions on how to rally and organize the community to change things.
Jacqui Salmon:
What bothers me a lot when it comes to my daughter's friends is the way they align themselves with each other. One minute one girl and my daughter are best friends, the next day they're enemies and each girl has taken up another best friends. And they say some awfully mean things to each other.
I can't really step in, I guess, but this situation hurts my daughter, and the other girls, very much.
Margaret Sagarese: Just listen to your daughter. Help her act with integrity and dignity no matter what. This is a skill she will get and develop overtime. She will learn in time how to evaluate people and know who deserves her time and loyalty.
Laurel Maryland:
How can one help a child that has recently become "excluded" from children they have known since age 3? FYI, the girls are 10 and 11...they are very interested in makeup, boys and acting like adults, and my child is not. While we are glad our daughter is not interested in these things (having a boyfriend et al) her feelings are hurt that they are not as close as they used to be.
Margaret Sagarese: Give your daughter lots of extra hugs!!! TEll her this happens frequently. Children grow at different rates. Your child now has different interests than these others. Help her zero in on her interests. Do things revolving around them. She will find new acquaintances. Meanwhile those others will get into socializing, popular kids activities which unfortunately set them up to be in jeopardy. The popular set often dabble in alcohol, drugs, oral sex etc. Thank your lucky stars your daughter is ready to go there!
Jacqui Salmon:
We're winding things up here. Next week we will be on at 1 p.m. Friday. And we WILL start on time.
Our guest is T. Berry Brazelton. He's practically a legend in the world of parenting and child development. Many parents know him as the "Dr. Spock of today's generation of parents." So join us next Friday. You can also submit questions in advance starting a few days before the chat.
Jacqui Salmon:
One last thing: Margaret missed a word in her answer to Laurel, Maryland. She wants to correct it to say: "Thank your lucky stars your daughter ISN'T ready to go there!"
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Jacqui Salmon:
That wraps up today's show. Thanks to everyone who joined the
discussion.
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