Jacqueline L. Salmon (The Post)

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Families... And So On:
Changing Daycare
With Jacqueline L. Salmon
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, May 2, 2001; 4:30 p.m. EDT

Join Post Metro reporter Jacqui Salmon to talk about why child-care workers are leaving the business in droves, as well as some legislation on the Hill and a local proposal to change the way child care is funded.

Today's guest is Joan Lombardi, the director of The Children's Project, a new non-partisan initiative to increase public, private and civic investment in children and families. As one of the nation's leading experts on child and family policy, Lombardi served as the Deputy Assistant Secretary for Children and Families in the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services and as the first Associate Commissioner of the Child Care Bureau.

Families...and So On, hosted by Washington Post families reporter Jacqueline L. Salmon, is a free-ranging and freewheeling look at the American family. This is the place to talk about the burning issues facing the 21st century family, such as whether the world really needs diaper-wipe heaters.

The transcript follows.

Editor's Note: Washingtonpost.com moderators retain editorial control over Live Online discussions and choose the most relevant questions for guests and hosts; guests and hosts can decline to answer questions.

Jacqui Salmon: Hi, everyone and welcome to this extra edition of "Families..and so on." I'm running late, as usual, but here goes. I thought I'd slip this one in because there's been so much going on in the day care arena recently. In fact, it isn't been a very good week for working parents. A day care study last week appeared to indicate that children who attended day-care full time were more aggressive. And a study released Sunday says the child-care centers are losing well-educated staff and are hiring replacements with less training and education.

Joan Lombardi: The problem now is that it appears to be getting worse. Given the tight job marke. The recent study showed that child care programs are losing qualified staff at an alarming rate.

Jacqui Salmon: I'm very worried about what all these studies do to working parents. As a mom said in the story we ran on Monday said, "Oh great, MORE guilt for working mothers." Joan, how should working parents evaluate these studies? Should they be worried about the quality of the care that their children are receiving?

Joan Lombardi: Despoite the alarming headlines, the study showed that the majority of children in care, more than 80 pecent of the children in care more than 30 hours a week were not rated by their teachers as showing elevated levels of agression.

Naturally parents should always be concerned that their children are receiving the best care possible. They should be looking for small groups and well trained staff and an openess and willingness for them to drop by at any time. Quality matters at child care and at home.

Jacqui Salmon: There's been a lot of criticism of the study about aggressiveness in child-care kids. What's your opinion of that study and of the whole issues of behavior problems and children in child care?

Joan Lombardi: I think the NICHD study needs more examination by the scientific community before we can really understand the implications. I think that is what they were trying to do during the meeting they held in Minneapolis. The story really hit the public before it was ready. The most important question is what can we do to make sure that the quality of care is supportive of young children? What can parents do to help focus more attention on their children once they are home? And what can the country do to support both parents and providers.

Arlington, Va.: The enormity of the problems regarding adequate childcare is overwhelming. Tell me, how do you prioritize where to start? Mandated paid maternity/paternity leaves? Truly subsidized quality care (as other industrialized nations do)? I don't think any of the truly "family-friendly" initiatives will ever get off the ground unless attitudes across the board are changed, and I think it will take at least another 20 years for it to happen.

Joan Lombardi: We need both paid parental leave and better quality care. It is not a matter of choosing one over the other- we need both to help families. Child care is here to stay, it is part of life for the majority of families with young children. it provides and important opportunity to help promote their education and encourage good parenting. But we can't do this with high turnover, with poverty level wages for the people that care for them 30 or more hours a week.

Washington, D.C.: If child care workers are so underpaid, why is day care so expensive? I can't find any day care for my baby that I can afford. I've been told I have to pay $175 to $200 a week, and that is just too high.

Jacqui Salmon: I hear complaints about the expense of infant care a lot. And care for infants is, indeed, expensive. But I'm not sure what the answer is. Are there any immediate solutions, Joan?

Joan Lombardi: Indeed the cost of care for infants can be well beyond what families can afford. The problem is that families should not have the bear the full cost of providing care, we need some third party support to help families find good quality options without having to spend a quarter or more of their income. We would not expect families to have to pay the full cost of first grade for their children. Most other western countries provide both family leave and quality early childhood options. It is time the US catches up.

Jacqui Salmon: Joan, I've talked to some conservatives who are quite skeptical about descriptions of a "child-care crisis" in the United States. I had a long conversation recently with Robert Rector, an experienced research fellow at the Heritage Foundation, who feels quite strongly that the child-care industry is crying wolf. His reasoning: If there really were a child-care shortage, we would see wages rising, and we would see the qualifications of people in entering the profession increasing.

How do you respond to that point of view?

Joan Lombardi: Anyone that spends time looking for good care, or tries to live on the low wages paid to child care workers would know that that this in certainly not about crying wolf- We have a real crisis in child care. I think parents are beginning to become more vocal about these needs- which is important.We will only improve the care of our children when we collectively talk about the issues we are facing. Too many working parent knows the anguish of facing summer vacation without options, searching for camps to fill the gap, piecing together whatever you can find and hoping for the best. The problem is real. Talk to working families, and you will hear it.

Portland, Ore.: Are children better off at home with a nanny, or with a family provider or in a day-care center?

Jacqui Salmon: As a mom whose children have been in every form of child care imaginable (nanny, for-profit day care center, non-profit day care center, family provider, neighbor....), I've always been interested in the question of whether one care is considered "better" than another. In my personal experience, I think the non-profit care was the best for my children. I'll bet that the answer to which care is the best is very individual--for each child, the answer would be different. Joan, do you agree?

Joan Lombardi: I don't think there is one type of care (that is centers vs. homes) that is better or worse than another. EEvery family needs a range of choses that will fit their work schedules and the needs of that particular child. Some children, particularly very young children, may do better in a more home-like environment, others are ready for centers. The problem is more families have very few options. This is particularly true if they work weekends and nights.

Southern Maryland:: I am childless by choice, but have to work with people who do have children. Why don't more employers provide emergency child care for workers who have last-minute cancellations with their care givers? If they do the math, they'll discover it's cheaper to hire a babysitter and provide play space somewhere in their firm, than it is to lose 8 hours of work by an employee. I work for a firm that has billable hours; surely it's cheaper to have a day care center at work than to lose those big bucks if someone's sitter doesn't show up. Also make sure it's for emergencies only, and don't bring in sick kids. Folks should be responsible enough to make arrangements for their own daily child care. If they can't, they have no business having children.

Joan Lombardi: I agree that families need back up options, but they also need employers that provide the flexibility and time necesary to deal with the everyday emergencies that come along in life and particularly when you have children. I don't think that anyone is ever completely ready to address ever issue that comes along with parenthood. In a community, we should all stand ready to help each other, those with children and those without children, and to be a bit more understanding of everyday life. Even if you have no children, the day may come when you face the need to take care of a sick parent or other relative. That will be a moment where you will need support to.

Jacqui Salmon: How well I remember those frantic days when one day-care provider or another fell through! The family provider who suddenly quit, the day-care center where there was an alarming incident, the nanny who didn't work out...Like many working parents, my husband and I always felt like we were lurching from one day-care crisis to another.

Arlington, Va.: Do you believe that many of the problems children face today would be alleviated if women returned to their natural role as primary caregivers?

Joan Lombardi: I think children need the support of both mothers and fathers. In the best of all words they have two parents that are absolutely crazy about them, and devote a good part of their time focused on providing them a happy and healthy childhood. I think that families can do that and still work. But good child care is critical. It is no longer an either or situation. It is no longer mother or father. These are false choices. At the same time, I think children need our attention and our time. We can't assume that someone else is taking care of their needs.

Silver Spring, Md.: I'm working to try to improve my employer's on-site day care. Currently they are under-staffed and having difficulty filling a part-time position. What's something they can do to make such a position attractive (other than higher pay, which would be great, but is probably not forthcoming)?

Joan Lombardi: The most important thing to do for staff is pay them a decent wage, and also to provide them benefits. I know many programs like yours that are struggling with this. It is important for you to join with others to bring visibility to the issue- to let others know how difficult it is for you and your staff. I think it helps your staff if they know that you are out their advocating for them. I also think the climate and tone that you set in the program is critical: being open to new ideas, showing you care about the staff and their families with the small things you do for them on a daily basis. But this won't put food on their table or send their own children to college, so we have to keep the message on the need for public support.

Stamford, CT: I am the product of daycare. I don't have any qualms putting my daughter in daycare. I am mainly concerned with the amount of time I'm able to spend with her. I say, too hell with what the studies say. Other than being shy, I was a normal, well-adjusted child. I can understand how a parent paying $200 a wk for child care would say it's expensive but if calculate the hourly wage,you're not paying more than $7/hr. to ensure the safety of your most prized possession.

Joan Lombardi: I think as more and more families see that child care is a part of life, there will be more or an inclination to help make it the best it can be. For many years child care seemed like someone elses business. The attitide was- child care is used by someone elses family, but not my family. Now the world has change. The fact is that the vast majority of children will spend some time in child care. We have to take the opportunity to make sure it is time well spent. At the same time, I agree with all of you that are asking for more flexibility and more time off to spend with our children. We need both. We should have both. We should expect both.

Reston, VA: Why do you think that suddenly families don't have enough money to leave one parent at home with the kids? Personally, I think that if people knew more about "doing without", they'd find they could raise their own kids quite well. And since they presumably wanted kids in the first place, they might even enjoy it.

Joan Lombardi: I think the cost of living is high- particularly in this area and that in many cases wages have not kept up, making a two parent working family the norm. However, I also think that it is not just a matter of women having to work. Many women want to work. Many families may have a happier and more fulfilled life becuase of their work. This in fact may make them better parents. The problem is not work by itself- it is when we do too much, don't have supports, and all of the stress spills over onto our families.

Here: I think it's pretty funny that people are advocating better wages for childcare, when it's a profession nobody wants to go into unless they want to be a martyr. Heck, even the parents don't want to watch kids full time, that's why they want childcare. It's simple supply and demand. Yet people complain about even spending the $175 or $200 a month so they can have things there way. Have the person who makes the least STAY HOME.

Jacqui Salmon: Umm, actually, I need to correct you there. Parents spend $175 or $200 a WEEK, not a month. If it were $175 to $200 a month, we probably wouldn't be having this discussion.

Joan Lombardi: I think many families are trying to find a balance, perhaps working fewer hours, or part time, taking leave. But for too many families, there are no options. That is the problem. As a country we have put families into a terrible bind- most other western nations provide paid family leave and better child care options.

Reston, Va.: I'm having a terrible terrible time finding child care for my baby. I'm getting very worried about getting back to work on time! I'd really appreciate any suggestions, Joan or Jacqueline

Jacqui Salmon: Here are some techniques that I used. Tell everyone you know that you're looking for day care and ask them to think about anyone they know who does day care. Put a notice in your church bulletin. Call your local jurisdiction and ask if they carry listings of licensed providers. Put an ad in the paper. If you call a family provider and she's full, ask her if she knows of any openings with other providers--family providers stay in close touch and they often know about each others' vacancies. Get on day care centers' waiting lists and then call REGULARLY to see if there is a vacancy--frankly, some 'waiting lists' really come down to giving the slot to whichever parent happens to call when an opening appears. Ask neighbors if they're interested in caring for your child--keep in mind, though, that they'll probably need to do a few (relatively simple) things to get approval in your local jurisdiction. Any other ideas, Joan?

Joan Lombardi: On looking for infant care, Jacqui gave you some good suggestions. You might want to check with your local child care resource and referral. Chances are that once you find care, you will continue to worry, particularly when your children are young. Make sure that you stay in close contact with the provider. Spend time together in the early morning and late afternoon. Never feel like a question is too silly to ask. Following your feelings. Try to develop a relationship with your caregiver- you are sharing your most important asset. In the evening, try to slow down and refocus on your child, reconnect. I know it is so hard in the early evening when their is so much to do, but nothing is more important than you refocusing on your baby's needs, getting close again after a long day.

Alexandria, VA: With respect to the study about agressive kids and child care, they included FATHER CARE as DAY CARE! That is too silly for words.

Also, agressive included assertive behaviors such as explaining your needs and expecting to have them met, as well as things like bashing people in the head.

Joan Lombardi: I do think the study needs much more discussion by other researchers and the general public. I agree that when we think of child care that it is really about non-parental care- including both mothers and fathers.

Kensington, MD: More of a comment than a question. My baby is in a day care that I'm very happy with. But there are some days when it seems like all the babies are cranky & I just think "These women can't possibly be paid enough to put up with all this!" I don't think I could do what the caregivers do & I just wish that everyone appreciated what they do & would pay them accordingly.

Jacqui Salmon: I've seen many infant caregivers who clearly adore babies and are able to put up with just about anything babies threw at (or tossed up on) them. I've also, quite frankly, seen a few caregivers who clearly were not interested in young babies and should have never been permitted to care for them. Fortunately, I have seen only a handful of the latter.

Joan Lombardi: Caring for a group of young children all day is certainly a demanding job, as anyone who has had a birthday party for a group of toddlers knows! It is great that you recognize it. I think more parents need to acknowledge this and show their appreciation to their caregiver. At the same time, we should all show our appreciation to all young parents and be their to support them in all of their choices.

Lanham, Md.: Isn't home daycares more stable and reliable. We wanted stability for our daughter instead of the high turnover rate of daycare centers. That's why we chose a well qualified home daycare.

Joan Lombardi: Again, I don't think one type of care is more or less stable than another. In center care, there is always someone there- on the other hand, the people may change often. In home care, you are often dependent on a single person and when that arrangement breaks down, you can be stranded. The lack of stability of all types of arrangements is a concern for our children. Young children develop attachments and feel a sense of loss when arrangements are not stable. We have to make sure that policymkers understand the dynamics of this issue and the effect it can have on our children.

Jacqui Salmon: I think all these studies are very confusing for parents. Some studies say that kids in day care do better than kids who aren't. Other studies say that kids who are in day care don't do as well in certain areas as kids who are at home with mothers. How should parents view these continuous stream of studies? Just ignore them? It's very frustrating for them? I know that, as a working mom who's used child care for years, I get very upset by them.

Joan Lombardi: I agree that the messages we are getting are very confusing. I think parents should be following along with the debate, trying to stay informed, but in the end they have to follow their own feeling. Try not to overreact to every headline. The bottom line is, try to find the best care you can afford, make spending time with your child THE top priority when you are home from work, and please please, turn off the TV and spend time together as a family.

Jacqui Salmon: That's it for today, folks. Thanks to everyone. As has been the case for weeks, I was struck by the number of thoughtful questions from those out there without children. Please, email me with your ideas for topics we can take up in this column that interest you. Also suggest particular individuals. My email is: salmonj@washpost.com. See you at noon on Monday. We'll talk with David Walsh, president of the National Institute on Media and the Family. We'll ask him about kids and the morass of sex- and violence-oriented media that assaults them everyday and what we can do about it. And speaking of subjects that don't involve kids, we'll talk about family estrangements on May 14 with Barbara Lebey, author of (you guessed it) "Family Estrangements: How They Begin, How To Mend Them, How to Cope With Them."

Jacqui Salmon: Oops. I'm back again. We just got in a late flock of really good comments and observations. So, while Joan has departed, I'll go ahead and post them. Thanks, guys!

Alexandria, VA: Good suggestions about finding day care, but here are a few others. Look in June, not in September, even if you expect not to need it earlier. Sept. is when centers fill up. Enroll your child for a few days a week in the summer, if that is necessary to hold your place. Also, don't just call up and try to reserve your place over the phone. One center director (pre-school, not infants) said people tried to enroll without visiting. She seemed pretty willing to give them the heave-ho over parents who show up to see the place and ask questions.

Jacqui Salmon: Thanks for the ideas.

Reston, VA: I just wanted to note that often for children, "explaining your needs and expecting to have them met" is aggressive behavior. This would typically be bullying other kids for something they have that you want or throwing things/hitting people when they don't give you what you want.

Jacqui Salmon: Good point. One child's "explaining my needs" may be asking nicely. Another child's may involve a punch in the face. You see why this stuff is so hard to study?

Somewhere, USA: The tone of Reston and "Here" is what makes the work/stay home debates so contentious. We all make choices. We pay over 1K per month on daycare/private school and always have. Some of us choose to work, some of us don't. Please get it out of your heads that you love or "want" your kids more than working parents. It's that kind of closed-mindedness that divides people. Most of the kids I see in daycare are very well adjusted and fun to be around.

Jacqui Salmon: Thanks for the comments.

Reston, Va.: You say that it's not just a matter of finances, but many mothers want to work and it would make them happy so we should support it. I have a long list of things that I want to do including sailing around the world. I bet it would even make me happy and a better person. But I'm not asking everyone else to fund it.

Jacqui Salmon: Again, thanks for the comment.

Silver Spring, Md.: When you ask for paid leave for parents and at the same time ask the kids' child care to be fully subsidized, do you see how adults who choose not to have kids could disagree with you? If your arguement is that everyone should get more paid leave, I can understand the appeal even if I don't have to agree with it. But to say that parents should have to do less and get more hardly seems right.

Jacqui Salmon: I recently co-wrote a story on the issue of workplace benefits for childless workers vs. benefits for parents. It's a tough issue, but many companies are now thinking more carefully about their benefits packages and are trying to include more benefits that can be used by non-parents.

PG county: Responding to the question about the "myth" of the child care crisis. Wages for child care workers can't rise beyond what people can pay. As another questioner pointed out, infant care is already around $200 per week. Many centers avoid the issue altogether by not offering infant care. Blaming the victim by saying they had no business having children if they can't pay does no good.

Jacqui Salmon: Thanks for writing in.

Burnout: I worked at a few different day cares over a time period of several years when I was in high school and college. While being a day-care worker can be very rewarding (where else can you get hugs at work?), it's a very low-paying (the highest I was ever paid was $6.00 per hour), high-burnout job. When I worked with one-year-olds, I was changing more than thirty dirty diapers a day, and the skin on my hands often cracked and bled from washing my hands constantly. When I worked with three-year-olds, the state in which I worked had a student-teacher ratio of 10 to 1 for classes of children three and older, so I managed a class of 20 with another teacher. When that teacher was out sick for an extended time period, I was solely responsible for those 20 children even though it was against the law, because the center couldn't find anyone to substitute.

Some of the other teachers I worked with were wonderful, and some of them were so bad that they shouldn't have been responsible for the welfare a pet, not to mention a child.

While I love kids, I have delayed having my own children because of this experience, and if I do have kids, I will only do so when either I or my husband can stay home full-time. Maybe someday in the future day cares will get better, but at this point I would not send my child to an overcrowded day-care classroom presided over by a teacher I barely know who most likely has no training and is being paid poverty wages.

Jacqui Salmon: Thanks for writing in. Your story vividly illustrates why so many child-care workers leave their job fairly quickly and move onto to other industries.

It's very important that parents keep a close eye on what's going on at their child-care providers. Drop in unexpectedly every now and then. If your child-care center has some kind of parent board, volunteer to serve on it. Get to know your child-care providers at centers--they'll tell you what's really going on there!

Arlington, Va. (again): I completely agree with your comment that we can't have high quality care with poorly paid staff and high turnover. We just left a daycare because poor management was driving the staff to actively look for new positions. Our first questions for the new one were along the lines, "What do you to retain staff?" We'd pay even more a month if that meant staff would get the money, but I'm not convinced many Americans would. We're appalled by well-educated and paid colleagues who have pinched pennies in finding care for their children. And on the broader level, I doubt that in the current political climate there will be any real federal subsidies to help the middle class pay for this.

These teachers also seem to be hired from the same pool that teach in public schools. And we all know how they're paid.

Jacqui Salmon: I, too, am astonished by the complaints I sometimes hear from very well paid people about the prices they have to pay for child care. I'm sorry...but if you're earning more than $200k a year, I really don't want to hear you complain that $500 a week for a nanny is too much money!

Virginia: I was totally unsurprised when that study came out a few weeks ago stating that children in day care become more aggressive. This is bound to happen in a situation where children are kept in large groups and are left largely unsupervised (anyone read "lord of the flies"?) I remember being in an after-school daycare 2 days a week when I was about 5. There was another little girl there who threatened to beat me up every day if I didn't play with her (and she frequently did, in the little-girl manner of arm-twisting and hair-pulling). The people running the day care didn't believe me (or didn't care), so I was pretty miserable. I can only imagine what it would have been like to be in that situation every day, all day long. The fact is, lots of kids will pick on each other if they get the chance, and daycare is usually so unsupervised that this goes on quite a lot.

Jacqui Salmon: It happens a lot in any situation where there are lots of children. Again, it's important that parents keep a close eye on their day-care situation. I get the feeling that some parents close their eyes to it because they don't really want to know. Frankly, I know I did a couple of times. The day-care situation wasn't dangerous. It just wasn't the best for my kids but I just didn't want to go through the hassle and trauma of changing day care again.

arlington, va: I am a masters student elementary education and have two months in between semesters this summer. Where do you suggest that i look for a summer position where I can provide in-home child care (that is child care in the child's home)?

Jacqui Salmon: There are a number of nanny agencies around that might be able to place you. Look in the parenting magazine you can find at local libraries, such as Families and Washington Parent. Also, (and probably your best bet), you'll find LOTS of ads from families seeking summer babysitters in the Post as well as in all the local papers.

In fact, if I hadn't already lined up my summer babysitter, I might have asked you to interview you myself!

Now is a good time to be looking for a child-care position, because many parents of school-aged children are beginning to look for care for their children beginning June 19, when school lets out for the summer.

Good luck! You should be able to find a nice job as a good wage. The demand for summer babysitters is always high.

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