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Modern Meat: A Brutal Harvest
With Dr. Temple Grandin
Assistant Professor of Animal Science,
Colorado State University
Tuesday, April 10, 2001; 1 p.m. EDT
How much do you know about the meat you eat? What should you know about the way animals are slaughtered for market? Temple Grandin, assistant professor of animal science at Colorado State University, was online Tuesday, April 10 to talk about the safety of the American meat industry.
A leading expert in her field, Grandin consults with the livestock industry on facility design, livestock handling, and animal welfare. She has appeared on television shows such as 20/20, 48 Hours, CNN's Larry King Live, and has been featured in People Magazine, the New York Times, Forbes, and U.S. News and World Report. She has also authored over 300 articles in both scientific journals and livestock periodicals on animal handling, welfare, and facility design.
Based on a seven-month investigation, the Post's "Modern Meat" series reveals major flaws in the U.S. government's meat-safety net. A joint effort with Dateline NBC examines the spread of deadly E. coli bacteria. The Post reveals how increased production speeds at many processing plants causes the botched slaughter of cows and pigs, condemning the animals to a slow and painful death.
The transcript follows.
Editor's Note: Washingtonpost.com moderators retain editorial control
over Live Online discussions and choose the most relevant questions for guests and hosts; guests and hosts can decline to answer questions.
Arlington, Va.:
Submitting early as I can't join during the live portion -- thank you for being on this forum. I have read The Washington Post's articles with great interest. The practices described in both articles -- meat safety and humane practices -- certainly made me more aware of the current practices in the meat industry. While being aware of the issues associated with these topics is certainly the first step in addressing the problem, what can consumers do from here to encourage safer meat handling processes and more humane treatment of animals at the slaughterhouse? Does the solution entail becoming vegetarian? What can more susceptible populations (i.e., the elderly or infants) do in the meantime to reduce their risk from food-borne microorganisms?
Dr. Temple Grandin: What I would do is buy from companies that are enforcing some standards on their suppliers -- both for food safety and for animal welfare. McDonald's is the big leader, and Wendy's has put together a great program. That's what I would do.
There's no way you can have 100 percent perfection on either food safety or animal welfare, for the same reason that heart surgeons can't be 100 percent perfect.
When McDonald's started their program in 1999, it did a lot of good. The
Unannounced score a plant using the american meat institute guidelines -- objective scores. Out of 100 animals, you score several things: the percentage of animals rendered insensible -- that has to be 100 percent to pass. They would fail if it were anything less. The percentage of animals stunned correctly on the first attempt. An excellent score is 99 to 100 percent, a passing score is 95 percent. That does not mean that you're allowed to have 5 percent live cattle on the rail. There's a zero tolerance for live cattle on the rail.
Another is the percentage of animals that vocalize -- moo or bellow -- during handling and stunning. That has to be three cattle out of 100 or less to pass. Another is the percentage of animals poked with an electric prod. They also score slipping and falling down. That's obviously a problem or it isn't.
There is more complete information on my Web site, with the American Meat Institute guidelines.
In a plant that's good, out of 100 cattle, three or less will moo or bellow during stunning and handling. That is one of the things that they are scored on. Also, McDonald's in 1999 took a major plant off their supplier list, and that plant is still off.
Sioux City, Iowa:
The Washington Post story cites government records dating back to 1996-1998. Have things gotten better or worse since then?
Dr. Temple Grandin: Things have gotten much better since then.
Washington, D.C.:
Do similar concerns and conditions apply to other animals besides cows and pigs, which have been mentioned in The Post stories? How much of a concern is this for poultry?
Dr. Temple Grandin: Poultry is not covered by the Humane Slaughter Act.
Washington, .C.:
Is there any move to make the killings more ethical or to make the stunning or killing more effective? Also is the Kosher method of killing any more humane than the process generally used?
Dr. Temple Grandin: First of all, religious slaughter is exempt from the Humane Slaughter Act. There are two issues in looking at religious slaughter. They are: cutting the throat without stunning, and the method used to restrain and hold the animal. The biggest problem I have seen in Kosher slaughter plants is hanging the animal upside down, alive, by a chain attached to the hind leg. This is extremely stressful and painful for cattle. The large cattle Kosher slaughter plants in the U.S. are using a device to hold the animal in a normal standing position during Kosher slaughter. But Kosher meat is being imported into the United States from South America, and the methods used to restrain the animal are horrible. Animals are dragged around and hoisted by chains on their back legs. There is information on my Web site on Kosher slaughter.
In cattle, the most important thing is proper maintenance of the stunning equipment. And then, employees have to be monitored and supervised.
Caro, Mich.:
Are there any new beef processing facilities being built that are, in your opinion, going to be able to produce a humane and safe product?
Dr. Temple Grandin: Actually, there are two brand new plants under construction right now, and I am working with both of the companies. One company in particular -- I am really excited about them, and I think they're going to be really good.
Arlington, Va.:
Is there really any way to humanely slaughter an animal?
Dr. Temple Grandin: The answer is yes. Electrical stunning methods and captive bolt stunning, when done correctly, renders the animal instantaneously insensible to pain. Cortisol measurements in the blood indicate that the stress levels of cattle going into a slaughter plant are the same as the stress levels of cattle going through a chute for veterinary procedures. The data is on my Web site -- click on "research," then "cattle." Click on "Assessment of stress during handling and transport" -- Journal of Animal Science, 1997, vol. 75, pp. 249-257.
Also, the behavior of the cattle as they walk up the chute, both in the slaughter plant and in the veterinary chute, is the same. Cattle do not know that they are going to die.
Robyn Rebollo, Fort Valley, Va.:
Why on earth isn't poultry being covered under the Humane Slaughter Act? This article cites that even mice have been proven to dream. Americans eat an awful lot of chicken. How can we revise this law?
Dr. Temple Grandin: Poultry is not covered by the Humane Slaughter Act in the U.S. It is covered in Canada, Europe and Australia.
Oxford, N.C.:
Why do they have to stun the animals, can't they chop off their heads? At least that wasy they know the animal will be dead? Stunning in itself seems inhumane.
Dr. Temple Grandin: If you chopped off the animal's head, the head will remain conscious for up to 10 seconds. Therefore, the best way to render the animal insensible is to shoot it with a captive bolt, which will instantly destroy the brain.
In electrical stunning, a sufficiently high amperage is passed through the pig's head to cause a grand mal epileptic seizure. When this occurs, the pig is rendered instantly unconscious.
Alexandria, Va.:
Isn't it true that the nicer an animal is treated before slaughter and even right before, the better the beef from that animal will be? Or pork?
Dr. Temple Grandin: Let's talk about that. We did two studies, and we found that cattle that become excited and agitated when they are handled had lower weight gains, tougher meat and more dark cutters. Dark cutters is a serious quality defect, where the meat is darker and drier than normal.
Calm cattle will have the most tender meat.
Taipei, Taiwan:
Dear Prof. Grandin,
Years ago, I translated your humane slaughter video for the LCA -- Taiwan's leading animal welfare organization. I learned killing an animal need not to be so bloody. Good traning leads to less violence and more efficiency. It also reduces harm to workers.
After reading "Fast Food Nation," I learned low quality butchering still plagues the U.S. killing factories, staffed with untrained workers, which has been a profitable business case in Michael Porter's "Competitive Advantage," is now described in vivid detail that is no longer a business model but a public enemy. We have still a long way to go.
As a meat eater and a believer in free trades, I believe in money. Quality slaughter can be done cheap or even saves money. But without trained employees (who at least has to be able to write Spanish), it is not possible. How can one depend on those cheapest labors?
Today we enjoy dirt-cheap meat worldwide. Those who are rich can always eat Japanese raw fish -- you can buy whatever money can buy. Those who don't have much money are the ones who benefit from cheap food the most. Without cheap (and often very dirty) meat produced by cheapest handling, their lives will suffer.
Is there a way to do it good and cheap without good training? I mean people come and go every six months. Is there a way to do it cheaper with trained people? We can always hire good butchers and assign them lighter workloads. But that affects the bottom line and skilled workers always form unions. Think about the meat price decades ago. Poor people couldn't afford to eat so much meat these days.
Jiaqing Bao
washingtonpost.com: "Fast Food Nation" author Eric Schlosser was Live Online Feb. 6, 2001. Read the transcript.
Dr. Temple Grandin: Training of employees is essential. Good maintenance of the equipment is essential. The most important thing is management's commitment to animal welfare -- and this requires constant monitoring of animal stunning and slaughter procedures. A good manager acts as the conscience for the slaughter plant. He has to be involved enough to care, but not so involved that he becomes numb and desensitized. It's also important that the correct number of people is used, because overloaded employees are going to have a difficult time doing their jobs properly.
In addressing the line speed issue, it is possible to have overloaded equipment either in a high-speed plant or in a low-speed plant. The most important thing is that you must have the correct equipment for the line speed that you are using.
Washington, D.C.:
I am appalled at the video and the conditions under which these animals suffer needlessly because of mishandling and greed. Why were the guidelines changed? How do we get the inspectors to inspect again and, more importantly, gain the control and take the responsibility to fine and shutdown when necessary? We need safe meat AND humane treatment.
Dr. Temple Grandin: In my career, I saw more improvement in 1999, when McDonald's started their auditing program than I had seen in my entire 25-year career.
Austin, Texas:
How are the new plants that you have worked with dealing with the problems of high-speed processing -- that is, the problem of running cattle through the plant at such a high rate that employees are unable to ensure that every single animal is dead or insensible to pain?
Dr. Temple Grandin: The highest speed cattle plant runs 390 per hour. If that plant is staffed with two stunner operators, it can operate in a very humane and good animal welfare way. If one operator attempts to stun 390 cattle per hour, there will be some serious problems.
College Park, MD:
How can you know if the beef you're buying comes from humanely killed cattle? Is there any way to know what restaurants use such meat?
Dr. Temple Grandin: You'd have to ask a restaurant where they buy their meat.
Washington, DC:
You recommend McDonald's as the leaders in humane treatment of the animals. But how can we as consumers be certain that they are employing these safety measures? If I read correctly, most of the visits to McDonald's meat facilities were PLANNED, and not unannounced. Is there any regulation on these giant corporations from the outside?
Dr. Temple Grandin: McDonald's audits are now UNannounced.
Silver Spring, MD:
On the whole, what is the state of animal welfare in the meat industry? Should consumers be concerned?
Dr. Temple Grandin: The article in The Post emphasized some plants that had some very definite bad problems. The industry as a whole is much better than this. There are plants out there that are excellent, and they do a very good job.
Consumers who are concerned about this should ask supermarkets and restaurants where they get their meat. As more and more consumers ask supermarkets and restaurants where they get their meat and their standards for food safety and animal welfare, this will improve the standards in the industry. If enough people ask where the meat comes from and contact the company, that puts more pressure on the company to do things right.
Bronx, NY:
What are the differences in slaughter methods for horses and cows? Does a slaughter house that processes both species use the same equipment on them? If not, what are the differences?
Dr. Temple Grandin: First of all, horse slaughter is covered by the Humane Slaughter Act. They use the same methods as cattle. In the U.S., horse slaughter is performed in separate plants, and horse slaughter, when it's done correctly, can be done really well -- just as with cattle.
Horse slaughter uses captive bolt stunning, and the plants are very similar to cattle plants.
Ossining, New York:
With all the increase demands on slaughterhouses in England and Europe recenty due to Hoof-and-Mouth disease and Mad Cow, have you heard if the animals there are being slaughtered humanely? Wouldn't it seem that with such an increase in the numbers of farm animals killed that the plants would naturally get a little sloopy? What have you heard?
Dr. Temple Grandin: On Mad Cow, the cattle are slaughtered in a plant using the regular methods. For foot-and-mouth disease, they are slaughtered at the farm, and they would be using either a captive bolt stunner or a gun. The foot-and-mouth animals are not going to plants.
Strasburg CO:
Traditionally cattle are moved several times prior to their final stop at a beef plant. Does this continuous movement lessen the quality of the beef as compared to beef that is moved only once or twice? Can you identify the locations of the new plants you mentioned earlier.
Dr. Temple Grandin: It depends upon how the animals are handled, and how they are acclimated to handling procedures. Animals that are well acclimated to good handling procedures when they are young will not be affected by the movement. It's very important to train young cattle to be habituated to people walking amongst them, vehicles, people on horses, so when they see these things, they don't get scared. It's not as simple as the number of times moved -- you have to look at the whole animal's experience. It's very important to get them acclimated to handling procedures long before they go to a slaughtering plant.
Wash, DC:
Today's article in the post was horrifying... Are there "organic"-type brands of meat that make sure to kill the animals humanely. (I think of free-range eggs as a comparison) I thought Kosher meat was fine in this respect, and after reading that it's not, I'd like an alternative. Besides, there's no Kosher pork!
Dr. Temple Grandin: It depends upon the particular plant more than it depends upon the corporation that owns the plant. The most important person in that plant to ensure that you have good animal welfare is the plant manager. People that are concerned about animal welfare need to find out which slaughter facility their meat comes from. It's not a matter of organic or not organic. The important factor is having a plant manager that makes sure that animals are treated humanely.
New York, NY:
Are more horses showing up in the slaughter houses, now that mad cow and hoof-and-mouth hit Europe?
Dr. Temple Grandin: Horse slaughter is a controversial area. If all horse slaughter plants were shut down, there would be more neglect of old horses, and many old horses would end up going to Mexico, where their welfare would be much worse than going to a U.S. horse slaughter plant.
Washington, D.C.:
Dr. Grandin,
How about enforcing Muslim and/or Jewish dietry laws on animal slaughters? I think that would be quick and less painful on the animal and even healthier.
Dr. Temple Grandin: In both Kosher (Jewish) and Muslim halel slaughter, the animal's throat is cut without prior stunning to render it insensible. As I have said before, the biggest issue is how that animal is held. And in some of the small plants that do ritual slaughter, very cruel methods have been used to restrain the animal, such as hanging it upside down by one back leg. If you buy Kosher or halel meat, you need to find out the specific slaughter facility it comes from, and make sure that they are using a low-stress, animal welfare friendly way to hold the animal. Religious slaughter can be done humanely, but it requires the proper equipment to position and hold the animal during slaughter.
Washington, D.C.:
What is a "bolt" stunning?
Dr. Temple Grandin: In captive bolt stunning, either compressed air or a blank cartridge propels a bolt at high velocity into the animal's forehead. This will kill the animal instantly, and has the same effect as a gun. The bolt is about four inches long, and it deeply penetrates the brain. After the animal is shot, the bolt is retracted and reset for the next animal. Proper maintenance of this equipment is essential.
Dickerson MD:
What about the use of CO2 stunners? I have heard they are far more humane and significantly improve meat quality.
Dr. Temple Grandin: CO2 stunning is only suitable for pigs, and the humaneness of CO2 stunning depends upon pig genetics. Some pigs go to sleep peacefully in CO2, and some pigs may become highly agitated.
Arlington:
I read that McDonalds stopped using eggs from hens that were denied food & water. Since it started looking at other slaughterhouses, does McDonalds do inspections of poultry plants as well? Are there ANY federal laws governing poultry slaughter, especially given the salmonella problems associated with turkeys and chickens?
Dr. Temple Grandin: Poultry is covered by food safety laws. Poultry is not covered by the humane slaughter act.
McDonald's does inspect its poultry plants.
Blacksburg, VA:
Excuse my frankness, but you seem a little "quietly biased." I'm assuming you receive large grants for your work from the meat industries?
Dr. Temple Grandin: I don't receive any grant money from meat companies. But I do consulting for the meat industry, and I also do consulting for companies such as McDonald's, Wendy's, Burger King, etc., The USDA funds research grants.
Silver Spring, MD:
Do you eat beef?
Dr. Temple Grandin: Yes I do eat beef. And I feel very strongly that animals must be raised, maintained and slaughtered in a way to protect animal welfare. The whole reason I work in this field is because I want to improve the way animals are handled and slaughters. If you read the reports on my Web site, I have told it like it is -- the good things and the bad things.
washingtonpost.com:
That was our last question today. Thanks to Dr. Temple Grandin, and to
everyone who joined us.
Modern
Meat Part II: Humane Farming at 2 p.m. EDT
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