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The Condit-Levy Investigation
With Lawrence Kobilinsky, Ph.D
Forensic Scientist
Thursday, July 12, 2001; 3:30 p.m. EDT
Law enforcement authorities conducted a three-hour search of Rep. Gary Condit's (D-Calif.) apartment in Washington, D.C. in the early hours of Wednesday morning, attempting to find clues or evidence of missing intern Chandra Levy. They left with file folders and several brown paper bags. What could they learn from what they found?
Forensic scientist Lawrence Kobilinsky of the John Jay College of Criminal Justice at City University of New York will be online Thursday, July 12, at 3:30 p.m. EDT, to discuss the investigation and explain procedures used in finding evidence.
Kobilinsky has served as an advisor to the U. S. State Department regarding forensic science laboratories in Eastern Europe. He has published extensively on the subject of forensic DNA analysis and has made many presentations at regional, national and international meetings.
A transcript follows.
Editor's Note: Washingtonpost.com moderators retain editorial control
over Live Online discussions and choose the most relevant questions for guests and hosts; guests and hosts can decline to answer questions.
Nashville, Tenn.:
How will the FBI know if the spots found on the venetian blinds as reported by the New York Post are Ms. Levy's blood -- especially if they do not already have a sample to compare to? Also -- how exactly does the UV light that they were using work?
Lawrence Kobilinsky: First of all, they have to test the spot that they thought they think was blood chemically to determine if it's indeed human blood. Then they can do DNA analysis. You do have to make a comparison with a known sample of her own blood and that can be done by obtaining a toothbrush that she used because often gums bleed or some other biological specimen that they can obtain. For example, saliva which you can also find on the toothbrush. Or some other sample.
The second question dealt with the blue light that is mistakenly being called ultraviolet. It in fact is an intense light source that could be blue or for that matter, any other color. This light source provides high energy which excits the molecules in a biological specimen so that the specimen fluoresces. The result is the specimen becomes visible to the naked eye. Ultraviolet can in fact do the same thing but it's generally not used in the way that you believe. Generally, ultraviolet light is used to determine the likelihood that a stain is semen.
London, UK:
It seems a forgone conclusion that forensic evidence of Chandra's presence at Condit's apartment will be found -- but how advanced is forensic science in terms of discovering whether a crime was specifically committed to someone, at a certain place? Is it known whether they have DNA samples of Chandra to compare?
Lawrence Kobilinsky: The answer to that question is first of all, DNA samples from Chandra can be obtained by testing her toothbrush or hair brush or hat that she may have worn. They can find her DNA in these items and that will serve as an exemplar.
Evidence found in the condo indicating her presence may reveal absolutely nothing as to whether a crime was committed or not.
Milford, Mich.:
What part does the lapse of several weeks play on the ability to obtain important evidence during a search such as the one conducted in Condit's apartment?
Lawrence Kobilinsky: As time elapses, some evidence can be compromised. The apartment can be cleaned and evidence can be destroyed or removed. We do not know the history of the apartment. However, some kinds of forensic testing are not affected by time and one example is hair analysis. Another is fiber analysis. And a third is DNA analysis. So these types of evidence may still be found and can result in important information.
D.C., Not a State:
News reports are stating blood was found in a variety of places in Rep. Condit's apartment, including on the blinds and in the bathroom. First, what do you know about the facts of this situation and second, is blood usually found in multiple places in someone's home upon a complete forensic investigation?
Lawrence Kobilinsky: I have no inside information about the evidence. The police and the FBI are keeping that information secret.
Secondly, the fact that blood stains are found in more than one place in an apartment in and of itself says nothing about whether a crime was committed.
Bethesda, Md.:
I know they used Luminol in searching the apartment, but would mere traces of blood be enough to implicate Rep Condit? They had an intimate relationship, so unless there was a large amount of forensic evidence, how can one tie it to her disappearance?
Lawrence Kobilinsky: That's a good question. Determining that blood is present may have no bearing on the involvement of the congressman in a crime. What the police are trying to determine is if the evidence they do find associates the congressman to Chandra Levy incorporating the aspect of violence. The results of this investigation may not be able to reveal that.
Silver Spring, Md.:
A couple of years ago another young lady from dupont circle vanished, she was found four months later in the Potomac river, all DNA evidence (of her killer at least) was gone due to decomposition. Does a body decompose faster in warm river water or underground?
Thanks
Lawrence Kobilinsky: The rate of decompositon of a body depends on a number of factors. The state of health of the individual prior to death is one factor. The environment that the body is found in is another factor. Warm weather will promote deterioration of the body. Animals will speed up the degradation of the body. The normal process of self-degradation called autolysis can be speeded up depending on environmental conditions so that the question can be answered if we know more about temperature. But insect activity in the soil is another important factor that will hasten degradation.
Yellow Springs, Ohio:
How are skin samples obtained from the site?
Lawrence Kobilinsky: If skin has sloughed off an individual it may be found in the vacuuming that is performed at the crime scene so it may be collected in that little container that is found inside of the hand vacuum. Items of clothing may contain skin samples as well.
Washington, D.C.:
Even if the substance on the blinds does turn out to be Chandra Levy's blood, what does that prove? She apparently spent quite a bit of time at Condit's condo, and don't we all have little household mishaps now and then that would cause small amounts of blood to be present in our home? It seems like a longshot...
Lawrence Kobilinsky: This is a good question. There may be no information of importance associated with these spots. In fact they may not even be blood. But if they are blood, then the shape, position may enlighten us, since this may constitute blood spatter and this can be very informative as well as a sign of violence.
Oceanside, N.Y.:
How can forensic scientists determine if blood is human or animal? What are the indicators that a blood droplet came from a human source?
Lawrence Kobilinsky: Excellent question! Blood is determined as blood via chemical testing. You need serological analysis by using an antiserum known as anti human hemoglobin to reveal if it is human blood. If the immune (serological finding) response is present (a precipitin line) then you know that there has been a reaction and that the antiserum has combined with human hemoglobin. So...in one step you have confirmed the presence of human blood. Thanks for your question
Leesburg, Va.:
Can blood traces -ever- disappear from
scientific detection? Is there a certain
amount of time where investigators could
no longer find any traces, even with
today's technologies?
Thank You
Lawrence Kobilinsky: Although time can be an important factor in determining if blood is present at a crime scene, it may not destroy the ability to determine if a stain is blood. In fact older bloodstains are more easily chemically tested than fresh bloodstains. As time goes on, the crime scene becomes less "pristine," that is, there is a high likelihood that the scene was tampered with (vacuumed, washed, objects moved or removed, etc.). Can you remove blood so completely that a stain can no longer be successfully tested? The answer is yes. Some of our tests can detect blood at levels of 1 part per thousand or hundreds of thousands, but at some stage you can wash out the presence of blood and it will go undetected. This is not necessarily a function of time. A good washing over a short time can result in the total removal of blood. It depends on the meaning of "good"
Tustin, Calif.:
After obtaining evidence from Condit's apartment, news reports are that the D.C. police are now searching vacant buildings in the same area. Could this be a coincidence, or have they found something that led the investigation in this direction?
Lawrence Kobilinsky: This has become a high profile case. The police do not want to appear like keystone cops. They are going to leave no stone unturned. Now that the FBI is involved there will be an even more thorough search for Chandra and any evidence that associates the Congressmen to her. I do not believe that anything has turned up that would warrant them going to adjoining vacant buildings. It is, however, the logical thing to do. Thanks for your question
D.C.:
What, conceivably, did the investigators cart out of Condit's apartment? Also, wasn't it a bit strange that his computer was gone when the investigators were there?
Lawrence Kobilinsky: Presumably they took out what they brought in. In addition, they would have removed anything that they thought might consititute evidence. Since they had no search warrant, Congressmen Condit could have stopped the search at any time. I think that he feels there is no evidence in his condo that might incriminate him. The computer could be an important piece of evidence. I am not sure as to why the computer was missing as you point out, but, it seems to me that the police would certainly have asked for permission to test the hard drives/floppies etc.
San Francisco, Calif.:
Can scientists determine if someone attempted to "clean up" blood?
Lawrence Kobilinsky: The answer is "maybe" and this is a very good question. The first question we like to ask is: Is blood present and we perform our tests accordingly. If the police suspect that certain items had been washed, they could look for the presence of detergents. Sometimes, a clean up can be performed merely using water. This is a very difficult task.
Nobis, Vt.:
What is the difference, forensically, between hair that has been pulled and hair that has naturally fallen out? What might either reveal?
Lawrence Kobilinsky: Hair that has fallen out generally lacks a root (little cellular material) whereas hair that has been plucked out violently usually has a large root and a significant amount of scalp tissue. The latter would reveal that force has been applied.....Violence is the key here and that is what police are looking for.
Annandale, Va.:
As one involved in forensic science in academia, how do you feel about the apparent great disparity in police investigative involvement between "high profile" cases and normal cases?
Lawrence Kobilinsky: This is a superb question and the issue you raise troubles me greatly. When there is celebrity, or wealth, there is generally a high profile case. Such cases get special treatment. No doubt about it, Justice can be blind but sometimes Justice shows some bias. High profile cases result in a much larger response from law enforcement and from the entire judicial system.
Washington, D.C.:
Sorry to drift off topic a bit, but I wanted to know if you watch CSI at all? My friends and I are mesmerized by the show and were wondering to what degree it is "real"
Lawrence Kobilinsky: CSI is a wonderful program but it is TV and far from reality. The techniques and procedures you see are factual and can be found in the forensic literature, but...few cases are resolved in one hour. You simply don't put a sample into a machine and get the anwer popped out in 10-15 seconds. It is very entertaining!
Washington, D.C.:
What is your hypothesis about Levy?
Lawrence Kobilinsky: As a forensic scientist, I think it is too early to hypothesize. What I would like to see is a more complete analysis of the physical and circumstantial evidence together with what I like to call a psychological autopsy (analysis is a better word) for Chandra Levy. Once all the data is in then we can all speculate about what happened to her. In American one is innocent until proven guilty. An innocente person can be convicted, serve time, and even be put to death. We must safe guard the rights that have worked so hard to obtain and maintain. For now, the Senator has been caught in a deception and possibly in obstruction of justice. He is not yet ready for sentencing despite the attempts by the media to sink him.
Los Angeles, Calif.:
What is the likelihood that the police
would be able to trace Condit's
movements outside of his neighborhood
based on dirt, fibers, etc., found on his
clothes? (i.e., finding dirt on his shoes
that is associated with a certain part of
Chesapeake Bay). Is this the sort of
evidence that would theoretically still be
available 10 weeks on?
Lawrence Kobilinsky: The answer is that it would be quite difficult to trace his whereabout over the past 3 months unless the police were to find something unique on his clothing/shoes that would reveal that he was present at a specific location. As time goes by, it becomes more and more difficult to obtain this kind of information.
McLean, Va.:
If someone were killed by asphixiation, how could forensic evidence be used to determine that?
Lawrence Kobilinsky: At autopsy, there are specific signs that the medical examiner looks for for example petechiae (small hemhorages in the eyes) and damage to the bones in the throat or markings on the neck.
Bakersfield, Calif.:
Do you have the ability to determine if strong cleaning chemicals had been used recently on the furniture/carpet and so forth? I am aware luminal can be used to get to the micro specks of blood if they exist, but am curious re the cleaning chemicals. Thanks.
Lawrence Kobilinsky: This is a tough question. There are no commonly used tests to test for the presence of detergents. Remember that detergents are ubiquitous in our society and you will find them in virtually all clothing and in some furniture (carpeting) in the home.
Boston, Mass.:
was the blood found on the blinds found with the light or with the eye? Certainly Chandra's blood found in that location would be indicative of foul play, wouldn't it?
Lawrence Kobilinsky: The blood droplets have been described as being extremely small, but as you well know, red will stand out on white or eggshelled colored slats in a blind. The answer is, I am not sure if they were visible to the naked eye or that the intense light source was used to find it. Either way, the droplets were not as yet characterized chemically as blood, or at least this has not been revealed to the public.
Rockville, Md.:
What is your professional opinion on the fate of Chandra Levy?
Lawrence Kobilinsky: Chandra Levy has been missing for almost 3 months. AS you know there are hundred of others who resided in the Washington D.C. are who have also joined the ranks of the missing. Let's hope for the best. The likelihood, based on experience is that she has either committed suicide or she was murdered. It is also possible that she has been kidnapped and is still living.
New York City:
How long will it take to analyze whatever
police find in Condit's condo?
Lawrence Kobilinsky: Although the "FBI" has indicated that it will take some weeks, the answer is that this is a high profile case and results can be returned in as little as a few days or a week. Even if they have some information the public will not be told until the police want the public to know.
Austin, Tex.:
I have heard several references in the media to other figures whom the police would like to question besides Condit. I am wondering why these people haven't been given comparable official and media scrutiny and exposure, political office notwithstanding. There must be other apartments worthy of inspection out there.
Lawrence Kobilinsky: Rest assured that there will be a very very thorough investigation of anybody and everybody who may have information that might shed light on her disappearance. The FBI has been involved in a number of screw-ups. They don't want that to happen again.
Washington, D.C.:
Mr. Kobilinsky, In your opinion, did the delay in searching Mr. Condit's home compromise the investigation? Would the search have yielded more information six weeks ago?
Lawrence Kobilinsky: Most certainly, a search made earlier would be the search of an 'uncompromised scene.' As time goes by, the scene changes. Things are moved or removed, items are altered, carpets are washed, clothing is laundered. So, clearly, time has an effect on the outcome of the investigation. Still, some types of evidence are resistant to degradation over time. Hair for example, can provide important information as can blood stains.
Washington, D.C.:
Dear Dr. Kobilinsky,
How critical is the presence of a physical body to the successful determination of what happened in a case like the Levy case? That is, if Chandra Levy (living or otherwise) never turns up and no one confesses to any crime involving her disappearance, is there still a good chance that police could determine her fate and catch the perpetrator of the crime (if there was a crime and perpetrator in this case)?
Lawrence Kobilinsky: It should be made clear that people can be convicted in cases where there is no body. If there is enough circumstantial evidence that a murder has occurred and all evidence points in one direction, a person can be indicted, convicted and even face the death penalty. There have been a number of cases where people have been convicted despite the absence of the corpus delecti.
Reston, Va.:
Any chance this won't be finished before Labor Day weekend?
Lawrence Kobilinsky: Asolutely correct. One never knows. There could be a sudden finding that could crack open the case revealing the entire situation. Indeed, Chandra Levy could (in theory) come back and ask what all the fuss is about. I really doubt that this will happen, of course.
McLean, Va.:
Sorry, I wasn't clear with my question. If killed by asphixiation and you don't have the body, what forensic evidence could be found at the crime scene to indicate that the crime was committed? Thanks.
Lawrence Kobilinsky: For example, if a platic bag had been placed over a persons head and that person expired, and assuming there is no body found. It would be very very difficult to prove that a murder by asphyxiation took place.
Derwood, Md.:
If Chandra Levy is found dead and happened to be pregant is it possible to determine who's baby it was?
Lawrence Kobilinsky: Yes, but one would need samples of DNA from the suspected father! One might want to screen all possible individuals and then the analysis would probably exclude all but one.
Glossop, England U.K.:
To what extent would the police be checking the drains and plumbing in the condo? Thank you.
Lawrence Kobilinsky: An excellent question. If the crime scene work were done completely and as it should have been done, this kind of check would have taken place. Blood evidence often ends up in the sink or washing machine or bath tub. It becomes necessary to check plumbing using various techniques to see if blood had been present. Remember though that Chandra has been missing for almost 3 months. Water moving through the plumbing would probably have removed any trace of blood even if it had been present.
Boston, Mass.:
In your opinion with the evidence that is given, do you think there is any chance she is still alive?
Lawrence Kobilinsky: Yes. There is absolutely no evidence indicating that she is not living. The better question is what is the probability that she is alive. I cannot answer that question since I left my crystal ball at home this morning.
Captol Hill:
Does it suggest anything if a woman leaves her apartment taking keys but little else? A run in the park would explain that. Any other possibilities you'd suggest?
Lawrence Kobilinsky: What is interesting is that she had packed her bags yet left with only her keys and then disappeared. It is possible that she was kidnapped from a secluded location as she jogged through a park. At this stage all we can do is speculate.
Sonoma, Calif.:
Given the sketchy reputation of the D.C. Police Department, do you think they will be able to assemble comparative data on other missing person's cases in D.C., focusing on other missing women in the area to see if patterns can be identified? Is there anything else the investigators ought to be doing, in your opinion?
Lawrence Kobilinsky: This is precisely what the police have done. They have investigated other serial cases not only in Washington but throughout the country and have turned up nothing.Investigators must pursue this case and leave no stone unturned.
Washington, D.C.:
A story on CNN mentioned that police will be searching abandoned buildings in Northwest Washington, D.C. Do you know if this effort is related to a new lead? Is it related in any way to the results of the search of Rep. Condit's apartment?
Lawrence Kobilinsky: My hunch is that this search is part of a larger effort to leave no stone unturned. They are doing what is reasonable and logical. There is nothing in the apartment that specifically led them to do this.
Vicenza, Italy:
I thought that it was not possible to determine the paternity of a fetus because of the mixing of the mother's blood in the fetus. I don't know the technical name for this - but that the reason given for why the courts have to wait about 6 months to test for paternity after a baby is born. What do you know about this?
Lawrence Kobilinsky: This is incorrect. There have been a number of rape cases that have been prosecuted after a fetus has been sampled and DNA tested. Remember that we need not test "blood" per se. WE can test any fetal tissue. Futhere, Paternity testing can certainly be done on children younger than 6 months. We have gone way beyond testing for ABO blood group and other blood antigens.
Coeur d'Alene, Idaho:
She probably was not out jogging. The police found her running shoes in her apartment.
Lawrence Kobilinsky: I have no problem with your conclusion. The point that I was making is that she may have been snatched off the street or off the lane in a park or from some other place. A kidnapping is a very real possibility
San Francisco, Calif.:
Do you have any experience with the use of psychics, remote sensing or other intuitive means of assisting investigations? Are they ever helpful?
Lawrence Kobilinsky: Despite what you may have seen on various entertainment TV programs, I have never been involved in any case where psychics and the like have been called in. As a scientist, I have some level of cynicism about such helpers.
Washington, D.C.:
In terms of looking for evidence, are the police and FBI perfoming tests on Condit's car, if he has one?
Lawrence Kobilinsky: A very good question. REmember that the Congressmen has given his permission for the search to occur. It is my understanding that he gave permission for the police to search his condo. No mention of a car however. If the police had obtained a warrant, they surely would have checked his car. This is an extremely important part of the evidence since a body would have to be transported by using a vehicle.
Sonoma, Calif.:
Has there been any success in determining what Chandra Levy might have been wearing when she left her house, via a missing outfit or shoes? Would this information be of any help in constructing a profile of what she was doing when she left her apartment?
Lawrence Kobilinsky: I do not believe that there is much information on what she was wearing. Nor do I think that this would shed much light on where she was heading. I could be wrong however. If she had been wearing gym clothing then we might assume she was heading for her gym. I just don't have any information on this issue.
Re: Paternity testing on fetuses:
One might also point out that the mother's blood and the fetus's blood never do mix. Nutrients transfer from mom to kid via osmosis through the tissue of the placenta. There's no actual mixing of fluids.
Lawrence Kobilinsky: Actually this is not true. There is usually some mixing but of a minor amount. In any case, paternity testing using DNA analysis is not hindered by the fact that we are testing a fetus.
New York, N.Y.:
Is there any credence to the idea this may be the work of a serial killer? I beleive America's Most Wanted is doing a special on Chandra Levy this Saturday night with that hypothesis.
Lawrence Kobilinsky: We can only speculate. Please remember that although it is very likely that something terrible befell Chandra Levy, we do not know that she is no longer living. We need more proof before we jump to conclusions.
Sarasota, Fla.:
Can someone (Condit) have eliminated any forensic evidence (like blood) by cleaning the evidence with enzyme-eating products; i.e., pork enzyme that "eats" protein deposits off contact lenses, or something that brakes down protein like Adolphs Meat Tenderizer. Also, why haven't the police talked to Condit's maid? It would be important if he got new drapes and bedspread in early May.
Lawrence Kobilinsky: Rest assured that the police will be talking to the maid and checking the local laundry. Throughout the years, criminals have tried to remove forensic evidence from a crime scene so that it goes undetected by crime scene investigators. We have very sophisticated laboratory techniques nowadays. If the criminal is unaware of our capabilities it is possible that important evidence will remain that can still be tested. Enzymes can destroy proteins. DNA remains unaffected.
Silver Spring, Md.:
Greetings Dr. Kobilinsky,
Doy ou think that the DC police examined the drains catch of the bathtub in Mr. Condit's apartment, in other words, would it be a place to find useful "evidence?" If so, what sort of things could be found there. Thank you,
Lawrence Kobilinsky: I think that they should have done this kind of check. However, remember that Chandra has been missing for almost 3 months. If she met with violence in the apartment and blood was spilled, and if the perpetrator tried to wash this blood down the drain, aftesr 3 months there would probably be no blood traces left for testing to be successful. My guess is that such testing would show nothing.
Dunkirk, Md.:
When searching the landfills, do you know if the authorities will have the dogs search for her specific scent or that of a dead body or both?
Lawrence Kobilinsky: Most certainly there will be dogs involved in such a search.
Georgia:
Since the police haven't found a body, is there any way to convict someone of anything? And if Ms. Levy is dead (which I find to be very likely) how do you find a body that has obviously escaped the radar screen for 11 weeks?
Lawrence Kobilinsky: You can convict a person even if you can't find a body. This has happened a number of times. Although it sounds unlikely, after 3 months, it is still possible that some information will suddenly develop that will lead to Chandra.
New York, N.Y.:
Do you think Condit's wife is important in this investigation, seeing that she arrived in Washington shortly before Levy disappeared? I read on another website that she only visited Condit in Washington twice a year.
Lawrence Kobilinsky: The role that his wife played in this matter is unknown. I would not like to speculate about any association between Chandra and Mrs. Condt.
Burke, Va.:
Mr. Kobilinsky, what type of evidence is collected for this type of case, and could evidence be lost/destroyed due to the delay in searching for evidence?
Lawrence Kobilinsky: Blood, hair, fibers, fingerprints, semen, saliva, are the primary types of evidence the crime scene people are looking for. Evidence can certainly be lost/destroyed due to the delay in the investigation.
Vienna, Va.:
I saw an article in the New York Post that claims detectives look a slat from the Congressman's blinds because blood may have been detected. Do you know if this kind of evidence was found? How long will it take to get the results from what was taken from the apartment?
Lawrence Kobilinsky: It will take little time to determine if it is human blood. It will take a couple of days to DNA test it. Then an exemplar of Chandras DNA must be tested so that a comparison can be made. Although the police said it might be weeks before the results come back. it is possible that it may take only a week or so.
Arlington, Va.:
Just wanted to say that this has been most informative and enjoyable for everyone, I'm sure. We are all envious of your fascinating profession!
Lawrence Kobilinsky: Thank you. I enjoy my job and am trying to advance it. Thanks for your comments.
Sacramento, Calif.:
Mr. Koblinsky,
What possible use would the D.C.
police/FBI have in gathering Condit's
DNA?
Lawrence Kobilinsky: This is a hypothetical answer to your question. Please do not assume that I am implying any statement as to Mr. Condit's guild. Ans.They might turn up a body with his DNA present on clothing.
Silver Spring, Md.:
Is there a length of time that human skin under a fingernail can be of use in ectracting DNA or does it degrade to the point where it cannot be used? How about hair, same question.
Thanks,
RPM
Lawrence Kobilinsky: Such evidence seldom reveals important DNA information since there is seldom enough DNA in such samples. However, when DNA is found in a fingernail scraping it is very important. I cannot give you a very good answer about the timing, but it is true that the longer you wait the less likely you will find the sample DNA you are looking for. Hair is different. You can do nuclear testing of the root or mitochondrial testing of the shaft. Time is less a detriment in this case.
Silver Spring, Md.:
Would a corrosive such as Draino destroy DNA traces from a bathtub or would some survive? Thank you.
RPM
Lawrence Kobilinsky: Tough question. I am not sure of the components in Draino. Most detergents have components that break down proteins ,but not DNA
Lawrence Kobilinsky: It has been a wonderful experience trying to answer the excellent questions posed about the Condit/Levy matter. Unfortunately, I must go now. I have a serious rape case that I am presently handling and the lawyer I am working with is growing impatient. I will be back again to answer more questions. Let us hope that Chandra is alive and well. If not, let us hope that her assailant is captured and punished to the full extent of the law. Remember, that it will be the science of the case that will shed light on its solution. Science and Law...a perfect relationship. P.S. you can read some of my columns that are located on http://www.APB online. Look for my column at the bottom. Sincerely, Lawrence Kobilinsky
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