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The Future of Music
With Jenny Toomey
Artist and Executive Director,
Coalition for the Future of Music
Friday, Jan. 4, 2002; 1 p.m. EST
Where, oh where is the music industry heading? And why don't musicians have more control of their artistic output? And what's going on with Napster?
Jenny Toomey, indie rocker and music activist, discussed the state of the music industry and the expanding role of her "Future of Music Coalition" on Friday, Jan. 4, at 1 p.m. EST. Michael Bracy, the coalition's director of governmental relations and a leading advocate for expansion of low-power FM radio stations, will join the discussion.
Submit your questions and comments before or during today's discussion.
As lead singer with the Washington, D.C. band Tsunami and co-founder of the Simple Machines record label, Jenny Toomey was one of the early proponents of indie-rocks' DIY (do it yourself) ethos. Toomey's career as a musician continues -- last year she released "Antidote," a beautiful and intriguing double CD -- but she is also expanding her role as an advocate for musicians. Toomey is the executive director of the "Future of Music Coalition," a grassroots organization created to bring together artists, lawyers, technology experts, policymakers and music business leaders to discuss artists' rights, copyright rules and pending legislation.
The coalition's second annual "Future of Music Policy Summit"takes place Jan. 7-8 at Georgetown University. Among the dozens of panelists and speakers scheduled for this year's conference are Krist Novoselic of Nirvana fame, the Indigo Girls' Amy Ray, Napster CEO Konrad Hilbers and Rep. John Conyers (D-Mich.)
Editor's Note: Washingtonpost.com moderators retain editorial control
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washingtonpost.com:
Welcome Jenny and Michael and thanks very much for coming on today. Perhaps you could start off by telling us why you started the Future of Music Coalition and what you hope it will accomplish?
Jenny Toomey: Hey everyone- thanks for having us here today.
we're wrapping up final details for monday and tuesday's conference and are excited about our great list of speakers and panelists...included Reps. Boucher and Conyers, Krist Novoselic, Amy Ray, Konrad Hilbers from Napster, MaryBeth Peters from the Copyright Office, Hilary Rosen and about 70 others. you can go to www.futureofmusic.org for the full list and details about the event.
our partners include the Georgetown University CCT department and Washington Area Lawyers for the Arts. We also have a great $5 rock show at georgetown university's gaston hall monday night with lester chambers, danielle howle and last train home.
FMC is a 501c3 non profit think tank that wants to put musicians and citizens in the middle of the music/technology debate. Again, you can read about what we do at www.futureofmusic.org. Our manifesto explains how we started and our newsletters keep everyone up to date on our activities.
-michael
Arlington:
Why did you choose to record at two studios outside of your hometown? Surely there are local studios (Inner Ear to name one) that are highly thought of where you could have recorded. What was behind your decision to not do so?
Thanks.
Jenny Toomey: I've recorded at a bunch of local studios in the past, Stillness, Pre-new WGNS, Laundry Room etc. I went to Chicago because half of my band was in Chicago and because I love Dave Trumfio of Kingsize Studios. I went to Nashville because half my band was from Nashville and I love Mark Nevers from Beach St Studios. I'd also love to know about inexpensive artful studios in DC because there are a ton of records it would make sense to do locally. Any suggestions email simplejt@aol.com I love Don's Studio by the way and sang on the Promise Ring record there a couple of years ago and have done some editing work as well so they are certainly in the mix for future activity.
Arlington, Va.:
Have you found a partisanship with your work on the Hill? Are Democrats or Republicans more receptive to you lobbying work or do you find that those generalities don't fit?
Jenny Toomey: (Michael)
As a think tank our role is more of an educational function, less of a traditional lobbying one. That being said, support for artist issues really crosses partisan lines. Senator Hatch, for example, is a songwriter in his own right and understands these issues on a very personal level. And in the fight for low power radio stations, the supporters ranged from Democrats like David Bonior and Paul Wellstone to Republicans like John McCain. There's a real sense that policymakers across the board are becoming more in tune with our concerns, including Rick Boucher and John Conyers (who are speaking at the Policy Summit next week).
thanks for asking.
Michael
Los Angeles:
Are you aware of the fight here in California between artists like Don Henley, Sheryl Crow and Courtney Love and the record companies, in hopes of changing California's laws to do away with the 7-year contract obligation artists are now under? Any thoughts?
Jenny Toomey: (Michael)
We're closely following this debate in California because it clearly has national implications - actually state Senator Kevin Murray (who's driven the debate in California) is also speaking on Monday. We submitted a critique of standard major label recording contracts to his committee in the Fall that you can find on www.futureofmusic.org. We are excited about the work that Don Henley and Sheryl Crowe's Recording Artists Coalition is doing in California and look forward to continuing our collaboration in 2002.
Michael
Vienna, Va.:
Hi Jenny. I love Tsunami. As a female indie rocker, do you see a rise in women playing in indie bands? Most of the local music played and aired on HFS seems to be all boy bands.
Jenny Toomey: The sad fact of the matter is that the majority of commercial radio stations on the dial have been consolidated and are largely owned by one of two large corporations. Playlists for these types of stations are programed by beancounters and not djs so we're stuck with what they think we want to hear and what (according to salon.com) they are paid to play. This is one of the main reasons that we formed the low power radio coalition in order to try to create new community owned stations that would be programmed by folks who care about music first. We're also optimistic that innovations in webcasting might balance the blandness of commercial radio...but only if there is open licensing and fair royalty rates (both of which are things that FMC supports).
U Street NW:
I just want to tell Jenny how much I enjoyed her show at the Black Cat in November. I hope she continues to do her own music as well as being a spokesperson for musicians' rights. Any plans for any more live shows here in DC anytime soon?
Jenny Toomey: thanks,
Not until March when I will do a short tour with Dave Shouse of Grifter's fame. I'll also be playing a benefit for DC's ladyfest sometime in the next few months.
Arlington, VA:
Hey, are there still any musician scholarships available for the FMC Summit next week? I'm a musician and I also work for the Electronic Privacy Information Center... any chances I can get in free?
Jenny Toomey: There sure are...go to the website, find the link in the registration page for the event...register and answer our questions and you may be one of the CHOSEN!
arlington va:
Jenny,
I once read an Andrew Sullivan piece which,
in a nutshell, said artist should create because they love to, not for financial gain.
Perhaps easier done for a writer, but I remember as a former drummer, how much I used to spend on sticks, drum heads, gas for a van, etc....
How much cash have you sunk into your music career and when will we see Geek return to the stage?
Jenny Toomey: I think that Andrew is right...we should create out of love...just as we should work out of love. That said, artistic labor is valuable and should be compensated. There are all sorts of historical precedents to prove that fact. The problem is we are in a period where there is no balance in the marketplace. Large corporations control the major channels of manufacturing, distribution and promotion and artists must negotiate agaist those powers individually. It's a recipe for the devaluation of artistic labor.
As for myself... I do spend a lot of money recording records and going on tours. My recent 6 week tour cost thousand and thousands of dollars but with no access to radio touring is the only means of getting music heard. One of the major reasons why I do this work is because I believe musicians are the best people in the world...they've been terribly mistreated and we can do better. Another reason I do this work is out of self-interest. I want better structures out there so I can work in them.
washington dc:
hi jenny,
since the end of simple machines, have you thought about starting another record label or getting involved again on that end?
Jenny Toomey: no thanks...
I loved it and I got out before I hated it.
xj
Capitol Hill:
Your organization is attempting to bridge the gap between musicians and public policy makers. These two groups seem to exist in entirely different worlds -- with little interest in the other. What are some of the challenges you face in getting these vastly different folks to talk to and understand each other?
Jenny Toomey: (Michael)
Actually it's easier than one would think...
at a very basic level most citizens are music fans, whether they are congressmen, attorneys, teachers, etc. When you can help the policy community understand specific reforms that can benefit artists, policy makers are eager to listen.
certainly there are cultural differences that need to be bridged - folks on Capitol Hill tend to have different ways of doing business than rockers and rockers are suspicious of politics - but ultimately both sides need to work together.
we are excited to help facilitate that discussion.
Michael
mount pleasant, dc:
hey jenny, i read the letter you wrote to spin trying to set the record straight about tobi vail's impact on kurt cobain's life. about your involvement in the music scene in olympia in the early 90's - have you written anything about your experiences or do you have any plans to?
Jenny Toomey: Yeah, wasn't that Spin article a sexist load of crap.
No, I'm too busy having experiences to write about em too much which is one of the reasons why the tour diary at jennytoomey.com is only up to new orleans when I've been home for over 6 weeks.
xj
DC:
Have Antitidote and love the album. Just wanted to know if the songs are all about one person/relashionship?
Remind me never to get on your bad side.
Thanks for talking with us.
Jenny Toomey: Thanks,
and thanks for asking. The songs are a study in the pathology of romance (largly in sexist culture). They are about different relationships, different aspects of the same relationships and relationships that I've never had. A lot of my records are ways of working about different dimensions of the same questions. Tsunami's last record did the same thing for the implosion of the indie music community. I understand the instinct to see everything as autobiographical...how deliciously salacious...but a lot of the time I'm just thinking through culture and using music as a tool.
You'd be fine on my bad side...don't you think I'm balanced?
As far as I can tell, there's a lot of fingers pointing in my own direction as well as anyone else's
DC:
More of a personal question. What music are you listening to these days? Any bands/singers that you want to tell us about?
Jenny Toomey: This is a great question.
No offense to Washington Post but if we are going to wrench our culture back from media corporations we're going to have to share more information directly. On JennyToomey.com I have a section called Taxonomy that should be up and running in a week or so. I will review what I'm listening to and talk about music I love that isn't getting the big push. As artists we have a responsibility to share that info as much as possible. Since mine will be posted...I'll ask Mike to grace you with a couple of his favorite recent spins.
Mendoza Line/Lost in Revelry, Destroyer/Streethawk Seduction, Bob Dylan/Love and Theft
Roanoke, VA:
Most of the discussion of the issues over file sharing, webcasting and downloading concentrate on the current artists. But yet if you do a search through any of the file sharing programs you can find almost anything that has ever been recorded, from the obscure, to the one hit wonders of the past. Under statutory licensing the labels still limit the amount of music available at anytime, much as they do with radio today. Wouldn't a statutory license that covers the older music be welcomed by the performers and songwriters as well? Under the current model much of this music is not available at any price "legally", but yet the very presence on the filesharing programs shows there is a market (however small). This would give them a new source of income, based on the fact that they get nothing from airplay, but will from webcasting and download services, and quite possibly extend their careers (if they so desired) making the music business a substaining profession rather than a shooting star profession where the performer/songwriter is burned out in short order. It's been said that only about 20% of the music is available for purchase at any time. If 80% is locked up and not available how can performers and songwriters get paid anything? Would you support a movement or legislation to have the soundrecording copyrights revert back to the artists, if the music isn't available from the label for a given period of time?
Jenny Toomey: These are great points. You clearly understand this space. As such you probably understand that artists are generally incredibly poor (most work two jobs to meet their household expenses and net less than 30K a year). Folks that are this disempowered have little time to devote to understanding these issues with the depth that you have... they just see digital files as a threat to there already modest revenue streams. FMC is in the process of looking at the benefits of a limited statutory license that would serve the same purpose that the radio broadcast statutory license did in opening up licensing for radio stations during the radio boom. It's a tough sell for artist groups because traditionally statutory licenses take the power of the price point away from the artist at negotiation. The real question, however is whether the majority of artists in an artificially constrained markeplace can ever extract fair value for their labor when they are negotiating with huge corporations.
-Jenny
Michael: just want to flag that we support the reversion rights you reference at the end of your question - you can read our take on it in testimony we submitted to the Senate Judiciary Committee at www.futureofmusic.org.
Silver Spring MD:
Jenny --
Here's a blast from the past: Are the last few songs on "Nopalitos" supposed to be all warbly like that, or is it just my copy?
Jenny Toomey: We like to call that "warble-core". Liquorice was one of the first "warble-core" artists who had the incredible fortune of working with Warble-aficionado/warble-genius Warn Defever of His Name is Alive and Time Stereo Fame. www.timestereo.com
Washington DC:
What does "low-power" FM radio station mean exactly? Can you explain this please? Thanks.
Jenny Toomey: Michael-
Low Power FM refers to 10- or 100- watt community radio stations that the FCC has begun to license throughout the nation. Initially, the FCC hoped to get LPFM stations in most urban markets, but due to intense lobbying from the commercial broadcasters and NPR the initiative is currently limited to rural parts of the country. Jenny and I have been excited to work with artists like Indigo Girls, Bonnie Raitt, Mike Watt and a ton of others in helping the policy community understand the need for additional noncomemrcial radio outlets.
-m
Glover Park:
That's a good question - what IS going on with Napster all all other organizations like them? Where do you see this controversy heading, ultimately?
Jenny Toomey: Napster is trying to build a legal and workable model as they have done since 6 months after their initial launch. There should be a beta version out in the next month.
dc:
the new record is great jenny. what kinds of projects are you currently working on/planning on working on (or what you're going to do musically after promoting the album)?
Jenny Toomey: I went to Tucson in July to do an album of songs written by Franklin Bruno. Calexico was the backing band and old favorites Amy Domingues, Kevin Cordt (who has a weekly friday date at Mr Henry's that is the best kept Jazz secret in DC)Jean Cook and Franklin himself. I'll be going to Tucson in Feb to finish it. It's called Tempting.
Aside from that I'm writing for another record that I'll record in the spring and I still have that musical to finish.
Arlington, Va.:
First off, I have heard Sen. Hatch's "music." I prefer yours.
Second, you said you had done some editing at Inner Ear. Are you looking to produce? Would you? Not that I am looking.
Jenny Toomey: Produce? Steve Albini is turning over in his grave.
oh wait, he's not dead. I produced the Tempting record. I might consider producing... I don't really have a lot of time. If a friend asked me to come sit on the couch with a bottle of Hornitos to give advice I'm sure I wouldn't say no.
Charleston, WV:
I would like for you to comment on where you think the music industry is heading...
Jenny Toomey: I think it's heading for a bruising.
Silver Spring MD:
This is for Jenny. Some of us missed your speaking tour in the Fall. Will you be reprising that material at next week's conference?
Thanks! And thanks for "Antidote", too.
-- Mr.Joel
Jenny Toomey: No, I won't be reprising the material from the speech for Monday but with any luck each of these panels will do more to explain the issues my speech tries to convey than any 1 hour power-point presentation ever could.
One song from Lester Chambers conveys more than a hundred million power point slides and that's why we spend half a year putting this conference together.
(My speech will eventually find its way into publication somewhere and there is an audio link on the site to one of the events where I give it.)
Hey JT:
How do you think this year's conference will differ from last year's? I know the Napster debate was at the forefront of everybody's minds then, what do you think the pressing issue will be this year? Or have no particular concerns risen above any other?
Thanks!
Jenny Toomey: (Michael)
great question. the biggest issue for monday may be the pending introduction of legislation to overturn the 7 year rule that teathers artists to label deals in california. Senator Kevin Murray is flying in from Sacramento to outline where he sees this issue going out west. A number of major artists have signed on to help his campaign and this may be the biggest issue in 2002.
-m
Brooklyn, NY:
Jenny,
Do you see a major breakthrough on the
horizon with regard to music and media
distribution for independent artists? What
would it really take from the Music
Business, Artists, and Politicians to
create an industry that works for
everybody? I look forward participating
Monday and Tuesday.
-Colin
Jenny Toomey: Hope so... we have to be very careful that the same models which didn't benefit citizens and artists in the terrestrial world are not transfered to the digital one. It will take an issue that the majority of artists can get behind to make these huge structural changes.
Alexandria, VA:
Do you find that you have any friends inside the big four record companies? What are your feelings on the record companies themselves?
Jenny Toomey: Or better stated...do people inside the big four companies have any friends? Or jobs even...I thought they were all fired. Actually, I'm just kidding. We do have friends in the industry. I truly believe that no one ever works hard to get a job at the labels in order to screw musicians. They get jobs at the labels because they love the music and ultimately it's not the people at the labels that are bad it's the structures. The taking of copyrights...the inequitable breakdown of profits...the insane promotion expenses...the one-sided deals that go on forever. We do have a lot of allies at the labels who would like to be able to work in a kinder industry.
WDC:
Why do you care? Isn't there something more constructive you could be doing?
Jenny Toomey: like posting a question like yours perhaps?
dc:
Jenny, i have to ask... why is it that ASCAP comes down hard on every local pub or cafe that plays someone's music, but not on something like the Redskins' PA system?
Jenny Toomey: ASCAP has been a strong advocate of artist rights but this is a good question to put to them. If they are being imbalanced that's bad...make your case...it's the only way things will change.
Rockville, MD:
Jenny-
How, if at all, have you been inspired by Robert Fripp and his Discipline Global Mobile record company?
Jenny Toomey: We support all artists who have the guts to build new models. Dave Fagin of The Rosenbergs who is on this label (I believe) will be at the FMC Summit Tuesday and I'm sure he'll have more details.
Alexandria, VA:
I have noticed that any MP3 made at less than a 320 Mhz sampling rate doesn't sound as good as a store-bought CD.
Were the chintzy kind of 160 Mhz MP3's that used to be available on Napster just a fad?
Jenny Toomey: Sorry, this one is out of my league. Our director of Technology Brian Zisk could answer this question at length but sadly, he is in San Francisco.
xj
Alexandria, VA:
I have read that some record company's want to include MP3 on the albums they sell you but copy protect them so that they cannot be transferred.
Does the music industry have any plans to copy protect CDs so that one cannot use one's own albums to make MP3s?
Jenny Toomey: They sure do and I know that if you want to read about it there are all sorts of places from the RIAA website to the EFF website to get more info.
Jenny Toomey: Thanks so much for your questions.
We're looking forward to a great conference.
If you want to keep closer track of our activities you can sign up for our FMC Newsletter at the website and you can get on the Jennytoomey.com mailing list for rock news.
xo
jt
mb
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