|
Potomac Confidential
With Marc Fisher
Post Metro Columnist
Thursday, May 31, 2001; Noon EDT
Want the inside skinny on life in the Washington area? Concerned about your neighborhood? What about the quality of our schools? Want to talk politics?
In his weekly show, Marc Fisher discusses whatever is in the news, locally and nationally. He talks about why people live where they live and the eternal debate between urbanites and suburbanites. He also explores the lighter side of life.
Fisher writes his Post Metro column three times a week. He'll talk about that plus anything else that's current and topical.
A transcript follows.
Editor's Note: Washingtonpost.com moderators retain editorial control
over Live Online discussions and choose the most relevant questions for guests and hosts; guests and hosts can decline to answer questions.
Marc Fisher: Welcome aboard, folks. Today's column mourns the loss of two of our favorite running stories, the John Thoburn-Shrub Man confrontation with Fairfax County and the debate over whether a Techway bridge across the Potomac should be built.
But the D.C. schools have come to our rescue with the strip-search scandal. And Virginia Republicans choose their gubernatorial candidate this Saturday. Plus, a teacher at Silver Spring International Middle School pleads innocent to the cheating scandal there (but in defending herself, she confirms that she broke the rules.)
Let's see what's on your mind.
Fairfax, Va.::
Hi Marc, great column, as always. Regarding the strip search, have the teachers and corrections officials been fired yet? This seems like a no-brainer to me, it is so outrageous. I don't know how teachers with those thought processes can even be allowed near children!
On the Thoburn issue, it was incredible the way the county dug up trees in certain spots to replace them with different trees. Unbelievable. I only hope Thoburn doesn't have to reimburse the full amount.
Thanks. Just had to vent.
Marc Fisher: Yes, it's true, Fairfax's guardians of proper living actually came onto Thoburn's property and dug up shrubs and moved them so they would be in perfect position. Your tax dollars are doing wonderful things, doncha think?
As for the DC teachers, they've been suspended while the DC Jail folks involved in the strip searches have been fired.
Fairfax County, Va.:
Hi Marc!
John "Treeman" Thoburn is a cretin.
I am flabbergasted that he receives such widespread, front-page, one-sided media coverage. I certainly can understand
that Fairfax County officials do not want
to make public comments, given the ongoing
litigation processes. Still, couldn't the
press and broadcast media interview golf
course neighbors (HOA board members),
provide more thorough background information on the Thoburn family doings, bring to light
similar legal cases nationwide, et cetera?
Readers deserve fair, accurate reporting
on this issue, eh?
Marc Fisher: Oh, goodness, those neighbors have gotten so much publicity, they'll probably join James Carville's firm one of these days.
To its credit, Fairfax County is not hiding behind any phony claims of not being able to speak because of legal proceedings. The county hauls out its official spokesman to defend the actions against Thoburn. But the real county officials who are leading the charge against Thoburn are silent, referring all calls to the spokesman--which is what public officials tend to do when they cannot defend their positions.
Washington, D.C.:
Hello,
I have to say that I'm split on this whole prison issue. First off, if everything the kids say happened, really did, then yes - people need to be fired, change needs to happen, maybe some punitive monetary action needs to take place. However, if people are naive enough to think that this is not about money, it is a shame. Come on, how long is it going to be before some mother is going to start crying that since her kid sits next to one of the kids involved, or rides the same school bus, or has homeroom class with one of the kids, that they are 'damaged' and 'traumatized' and 'can't sleep', and now need $4 million. Puhleeze, give me a break!
Marc Fisher: Sadly, you are right about the desire to "get paid," as two of the mothers in this case put it. And as some DC teachers point out, the very same parents who are claiming to be outraged by the field trips to the Jail were entirely in favor of such trips before the strip search scandal blew up.
But that doesn't in any way justify the strip searches or the field trips. Kids just are not scared straight--sorry, it makes great TV, but it's not how lives are changed. That process is slow, personal and caring--not instant, brutal and anonymous.
Petworth:
Oh. My. God. All I can do is repeat that, in stunned amazement. Why? Because I read this morning's article on the field trip to jail, and looked at the reproduction of the letter requesting the tours. Oh. My. God.
http://washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A99869-2001May30.html will take you to the article, but the letter does not appear to be online.
This letter was a masterpiece of poor writing, containing almost every error possible. Grammar, spelling, sentence structure... simply a nightmare. We allow people who cannot compose a simple business letter to teach the children of D.C?
Leave aside the amazing poor thought process shown in this incident. Leave aside the fact that research has shown that "Scared Straight" type programs do not work. Look for just a moment at the fact that the person who wrote that letter is so obviously incompetent in basic English composition and basic logic that they simply should not be allowed to be responsible for anyone else's competence.
Oh. My. God. No wonder these children have a hard time making it in the business world. No wonder our schools have such a poor reputation. No wonder that we suffer from such a lack of respect.
My neighbor, two doors down, teaches in the D.C. public schools. She is an intelligent, literate, articulate, thinking woman. I have learned much from casual conversation with her. It seems that she is the exception. This is wrong.
I suggest that we institute, immediately, remedial English classes for both our students and the employees (faculty and staff) of our school district. There's nowhere to go but up.
Marc Fisher: Exactly my reaction when I saw the letter. Except I couldn't summon the same surprise. That's because I've been in too many D.C. classrooms where misspellings and woeful grammar were the rule. One of my favorite scenes occurred on a day when Janney Elementary School in Northwest had invited neighbors in for a look at classes: On the blackboard, a teacher had written the lyrics and title of the song, Frere Jacques, except that she had written, "Fara Jocque." When one of the first graders raised his hand and corrected the teacher, she blew up at him--in front of more than a dozen visiting adults!!
Poolesville, Md:
Hi Marc,
Have you coined a new word: nimbyism? I know what it stands for but never saw it before in this form. It is, however, very appropriate for the techway tangle that you wrote about a number of times. I guess I'm a nimbyonian too!
From C/D
Marc Fisher: I wish I could take credit for nimbyism, but I have seen it elsewhere. I love the word. And while I like your invention too, I think a person who enlists in the Army of Nimbyism is simply a Nimby.
Oakton, Va.:
What is so scandalous about strip-searching students in the D.C. schools? Kids as young as the first-grade have been known to bring guns to school and shoot their classmates, sometimes with fatal results. The people that complain about these policies as "no-brainers" ARE exactly that ... NO-BRAINERS.
Marc Fisher: What's scandalous about strip searching children is that it reflects a devastating attitude toward kids. Just look at the wording of the teacher's letter that set the jail tours in motion:
"I would love them to Tour Lorton Minimum Correctional Facility to experience the way they will live when [they] are punished by the law...," the teacher wrote.
Note the use of WHEN. Not IF.
I'm no believer in the simple-minded Keep Hope Alive approach of Jesse Jackson, but goodness, if teachers aren't helping kids broaden their horizons and learn about the world beyond their isolated ghetto, then who will?
Laurel:
Well another giant step backward for the Techway, and no new ideas about how to link outer suburbs.
I know there's more than NIMBYism and environmental extremism at work here, and I don't specifically fault the people who worry about the deterioration of their neighborhoods, BUT...
Our inner suburban roads that were designed to serve their neighborhoods are now doing triple duty by also carrying people from the outer suburbs into the city and even between outer subrubs.
Why does a trip from Gaithersburg to Reston require inbound and outbound trips to the Beltway? Why does brother take the Beltway between Gaithersburg and Laurel? Because of lack of outer-suburban connections. The piecemeal approach to the Techway and ICC just misses the overriding issue that the Beltway is choked at many points because of people who don't really want to be on it, but don't have other realistic options.
Marc Fisher: You make good points about the illogical trips that people take to travel from suburb to suburb, but the fact is that no metropolitan area can possibly provide smooth connections among all its parts. You would end up with highways cutting through every community.
The District, for example, has suffered for 40 years from suburban commuter traffic that was never meant to travel on its streets. But that's the nature of development in this country.
Building more roads simply doesn't solve the problem: Look at LA for ultimate proof of that.
The only long term solutions are changes in living and work patterns.
Somewhere, USA:
Anyone recommend a surgeon for Rep. Frank
Wolf's spine transplant?
Oh, those Bush daughters! Aren't they cute;
and models for a generation? Hmmm, let's
not delve into their first year grades.
When does the time come when we begin to
ask about parental (Laura & George's)
modeling, counseling, & leadership?
Marc Fisher: I'm not sure that Wolf lost spine here. I think he woke up to a reality much larger than he'd been aware of previously. If he'd been listening to his big bucks corporate friends, then it's entirely understandable that he pushed for the Techway study. But then he heard from his actual constituents, and it became clear that this thing was never going to be blasted through neighborhoods full of million dollar houses. So he wisely backed off.
As for the Bush girls, what's your sense of the proper coverage, folks? We can probably agree that today's New York Post headline, Jenna And Tonic, is a bit over the top. But isn't it fair game to cover presidential daughters who are over 18 and repeatedly get in trouble with the law?
D.C.:
Oh no, I agree with you that the whole strip-search debacle is horrendous and disgusting, but it is amusing to sit back and anticipate the coming reactions from people who have probably been lulled to sleep lately with visions of dollar signs floating in their heads.
Marc Fisher: I'm glad you find it amusing; somehow, it strikes me as sickening. Something about two wrongs not making a right. Just because the city's schools and corrections officers do something awful, why should city taxpayers have to pay off zillions in damages?
Fairfax:
I really like Emily Wax's articles on Washington-Lee HS asking us to re-examine how open our schools really are to all students. Jeb Stuart H.S. got a rave review in the Post just a few weeks ago--I wonder how things work on the individual level, as Wax was looking at? Our educational needs as a community are changing quickly--I wonder if our attention is really focused where it needs to be.
Marc Fisher: Absolutely--if you haven't read Emily Wax's three part series on the cultural divide between Latins and Anglos at Washington-Lee High, it's still on the website and well worth the time. With all the wrenching debate and effort that workplaces and government and universities put into trying to boost diversity and get people to get along, it's always instructive to look at teenagers and even little kids to see where our habits of separate living start. The extent and power of divisions even at that age are sometimes breathtaking.
Washington, D.C.:
Just curious...have you heard anything about the fiasco that was the rain-sited Georgetown graduation last weekend? Hundreds of parents and relatives stuck in a tent, no ushers or traffic control outside the graduation site, etc...
Marc Fisher: First I've heard of it. Doesn't sound fun, but outdoor graduations can be so delightful, so I'm all in favor of colleges that stick to that ideal, even if the rain plans aren't quite up to snuff.
Beltsville, Md.:
What, may I ask, are your thoughts on the personal grooming issues in the DCFD?
Marc Fisher: I haven't followed that case closely, but I think any paramilitary organization, and any uniformed public service, has the right to enforce a dress code and code of manners and appearance for its officers, so if the chief doesn't like long hair or odd jewelry or whatever, I side with him.
Laurel, Md.:
Hi Marc,
I am a Laurel, Md. resident who is greatly concerned about the recent escape from Oak Hill Youth Detention Center. I suspected there had been an escape when our neighborhood was canvassed by a helicopter shining its bright lights in the area. Why do the officials there seem to have such a hard time keeping these criminals in custody? Knowing Oak Hill is such a sieve makes me extremely nervous. I thought it was slated to close in the future. Is this correct?
Marc Fisher: This takes us to the heart of the debate over juvenile offenders and whether they should be treated as wayward kids or dangerous adults. Obviously, there are some at Oak Hill, and always have been, who are more dastardly cases than the facility was intended to handle. The pendulum is swinging heavily toward treating kids as adults, which overall is unfortunate. But that shouldn't mean that juvenile should be free to wander off the Detention Center.
Our police reporter, Petula Dvorak, with some quick research assistance from city reporter David Fahrenthold, tells me that a new center for youth was planned, perhaps
in the District, but that there was no guarantee Oak Hill wouldn't remain in operation, housing convicted kids.
20019:
Marc, perhaps the teachers and jail guards who participated in the whole strip-search debacle should have to serve time in that very jail.
Marc Fisher: There's a thought.
D.C.:
OK, so if it had been YOUR child who was strp-searched, would you talk to a lawyer?
Marc Fisher: No. I might want to talk to a counselor, I certainly would want to talk to the superintendent and school board members, and I'd make absolutely certain that I talked to the press. But a lawyer wouldn't be part of the equation unless the city and the schools tried to deny what happened and protect those involved--which in this case has been anything but the case.
Strip-minder:
Strip-searching children should be put in appropriate perspective ... let there be strip-searching at one's place of employment. Like maybe if one's work assignment is below-grade? Then see how 'sensitive' one becomes after the experience, eh? "Do unto YOU ... who would have it done unto others" ... paraphrasing some old fellow maybe?
Marc Fisher: Yeah, let's strip search everyone. At malls, the Metro, certainly upon entering government buildings. Crime would plummet. And we'd get a handle on the obesity problem right fast.
My tax dollars??:
Related to the Bush daughter thing, but not necessarily ABOUT them ... what exactly is the role of the Secret Service agents asssigned to "protect" them? I read that they attempted to intercede when the Austin police appeared. Are they supposed to stand by while their underage charges attempt to break the law, or are they just supposed to be available for bailing out their buddies and giving them rides home?
Marc Fisher: The Secret Service will not talk about what its marching orders are on protecting presidential children, but it's clear from history that they try to take a somewhat distanced approach, largely to give the kids a chance to have a life.
Certainly there have been plenty of chances for presidential kids, from Amy Carter to Albert Gore, to get into trouble with drugs. Growing up in New York City, I witnessed the Secret Service's approach with John-John Kennedy when he was a teenager. The agents would accompany him to a party, enter the apartment to check it out, then head back out to the hallway and wait there while John stayed inside, doing what teenagers did in those days.
Washington, D.C.:
On the whole Bush daughter/booze thing, I don't think it's remarkable that they're doing stupid college kid stuff. What I find ironic is George W.'s campaign pledge to restore dignity/integrity to the White House. In his commencement address at Yale, he said "if you're like me, you won't remember everything you did here." Is this the poster boy for substance abuse and wasted youth or the President? Dignity and integrity in the White House is in the eye of the beholder.
Marc Fisher: That line in W's Yale speech was nothing short of Clintonian. Somehow, parents of that generation seem to think it's just hilarious that they did all sorts of drugs back then, and that of course their own children should do nothing of the kind.
Arlington:
Re: the Bush girls
Sure, I think the media should be reporting their brushes with the law. When the Gore girls got in trouble for partying that made the paper. Seems like Jenna's pattern (if we can call it that) might be a cry for attention. It seems almost fitting that the right-wingers who are only too happy to tell everyone else how to raise their children and live their lives end up having messed up kids themselves.
Marc Fisher: Well, I don't think the right wingers' kids have any monopoly on brushes with the law. Though there may be a bigger hypocrisy factor there.
Certainly, W can't be too happy that his cozy little visit with the park rangers yesterday--he even wore a ranger's green jacket for the photo op!--was completely overshadowed by the girls' Austin adventure.
But then there was that enticing little item in today's Reliable Source about Laura Bush perhaps being a secret smoker.
Somewhere, USA:
Hey Marc,
We've got millions of Americans who truly
elieve still that George W. quit drinking
alcohol 'cold turkey' at age 40!?!
The daughters are citizens, eligible to vote
and serve in the military. Can you image
the 24/7 drumbeat of reporting and commentary
had Chelsea Clinton done the February thing
and now this? Dan Burton, Bob Barr, et al
would be holding hearings.
Marc Fisher: Nah, both sides like to claim that they are better at protecting their young uns. But in fact there's a solid conspiracy to keep kids out of the limelight unless they go way out of line--and that applies regardless of party affiliation.
Washington, D.C.:
Running Red Lights:
Marc,
When are our governments going to put cops there to stop redlight runners and not cameras? If I want to blow a light on North Capitol Street because some guy is approaching my car at 2 a. m. that's my business, or even if I've got to take a bad pee, that's my business. I should be able to use that discretion. A cop would probably let me off, but not big brother.
Marc Fisher: You are the reason we need the cameras. In fact, it is not your option to decide when to honor a red light. And if the camera nabs you at 2 a.m. on an empty street, I say more power to the camera and the folks who put it there.
20037:
A Nimby yes, but never to be confused with Nym, Fallstaff, or Bardolff....
As much as I generally hate Nimbyism and the overuse of lawyers, the death of the techway is great ... NoVA is like corpulent child who is now to large to say "No" to....and to all those people who live in Germantown, Gaithersburg, and Rockville and commute to Tysons and points west....Live where you work!!!!
Marc Fisher: I love it when we all get along so well.
Bethesda, Md.:
Re: Techway
Thing is, there's an unacknowledged cost (i.e., cost in dollars) for living in the boondocks among the trees and the boids. Why should the people who live closer in pay that cost?
Marc Fisher: Ok, that's the District and Maryland spoken for. Any Virginians rising to take the bait?
Bowie:
Today's main topics are more closely related than many want to acknowledge:
The main reason we need a Techway is to serve people who don't want to send their kids to a school run by the writer of that letter and attended by those who need prison field trips.
Marc Fisher: That's the Quote of the Day, far as I'm concerned. Very well done.
Arlington, Va.:
C'mon, Mark. Show us your true colors.
Are you a Hager man, or an Earley supporter?
Just messin' with you, as you clearly loathe Republicans. Particularly Virginia Republicans. You seem to dislike quite a few Democrats, too. Guess that makes you the Jim Jeffords of Post columnists.
Serious Question: On the Va. governor's race, do you really think Hager has a shot?
Marc Fisher: Oh, come on, I don't loathe Virginia Republicans--I'm a big fan of Warren Barry, and I do admit to a soft spot for Hager. I don't get Earley's appeal, but I haven't seen much of him yet.
I can't be the Jeffords of the paper because I was never on one party's side to start with. Put me down as a floater.
Do I really think Hager has a chance at Saturday's convention? I guess so, seeing as how no one knows who will show up to vote, but it's not a very large chance.
Fairfax:
Re: rainy graduations
I went to my alma mater to see some friends graduate last year. The school has a no-exceptions outdoor graduation policy; they don't even plan for rain! The weather refused to comply last year and the skies opened up a third of the way through. everyone ran to the food tent (very small) and the president stood on a table and tossed out diplomas. It was chaotic and exciting and very lovely. Certainly memorable.
Marc Fisher: Absolutely--a lot more memorable than cramming into some humid echo chamber of an arena.
McLean, Va.:
Marc, Is the battle over the WW II Memorial
over? If not, what is the next step for
site & architectural design opponents?
As a Vietnam Vet(we don't have a dime's worth
of influence/power w/ the VFW, American Legion, etc.) opponent, what can I do?
Marc Fisher: The main group opposing the marring of the Mall, www.savethemall.com, is planning to go to court once more, even though Congress specifically forbade any court challenges. But I think this one is lost, over, finished. Sorry. Very sorry.
D.C.:
Firemen and grooming: OK, a dress code. But he's not allowing exceptions for religious reasons!
Marc Fisher: As well he shouldn't. There's no god-given right to be a cop or a firefighter or anything else, and if your personal beliefs don't permit you to follow the rules of said police or fire department, there are plenty of other careers out there.
Washington, D.C.:
Would you agree that lawyers's involvements in the strip-search case reflect our society, our people's eagerness to make money by suing one another?
Marc Fisher: Sounds right to me. The lawyers, of course, see it as a great big game, and that's their right, and they have lots of fun and make boatloads of moola doing it. But if the parents were truly concerned about the impact of the strip search on their kids, they would hardly even consider dragging the kids through the process of a lawsuit.
Reston:
Re: Techway
I'm against it for a simple reason - keep the Marylanders out of Virginia.
Marc Fisher: Ah! Took a few minutes, but someone shot back.
Vienna, Va.:
Why all of this sympathy for Thoburn and satisfaction that he is "finally' out of jail? Under our federal and state constitutional system, courts decide and interpret matters of law. One may not always agree with a court decision....I often don't.....but a court decision is final unless overturned by appeal to a higher court. Thoburn was ORDERED to do a certain act by a lawful and respected judge ... Bruce Bach. He refused to comply with that order, thereby, in effect, sending himself to prison. Why is that any different now then it was on the day that he was incarcerated? Judge Bach's order is just as valid now as it was then, and the principle is the same.
If Thoburn will not comply with this order, then back to prison he should go ... until he DOES comply with it, no matter HOW LONG it takes ... even if it turns into a life sentence. We cannot have people "overturning" court decisions by simple disobedience. And this also should have been done long ago with Dr. Elizabeth Morgan when she refused to disclose her daughter's whereabouts ... she never should have been let out of jail. I strongly disagree with the idea that after a time, if the court order is not complied with, there remains no further purpose in incarcerating someone. Your thoughts?
Marc Fisher: Well, sure, people who are ordered to do something by a court should comply. But there is also a right of appeal, and Thoburn has--in fits and starts--gone down that road. The larger point about contempt charges is that in our system, we do not toss people in jail forever to punish them for failing to comply with an order. The idea behind contempt findings is to coerce them into compliance. When after a reasonable amount of time it becomes clear that the coercion is not working, we are supposed to release them. Which is what has happened here in the Thoburn case.
And the judge came up with another way to get the order fulfilled--have the county do it and charge Thoburn for the new trees and shrubs.
But don't bet on Thoburn paying. He's a very stubborn guy. And he's got another hearing next week.
Falls Church, Va.:
When I attended George Marshall high school several years ago as an "off-the-boat" student from Asia and with no conversational English, I was treated by other white classmates as if I did not exist; when we were assigned to work as a group, they only talked to one another. Teachers were typically too busy to pay attention. Emily Wax's articles really brought me back to those days.
Marc Fisher: Yes, but her series also made clear that there are committed teachers who are going way out of their way to involve immigrant kids in classroom discussions and school activities.
Silver Spring, Md.:
Hello, Marc ... this question is on the California energy shortage. Why, in your opinion, is the national Democratic leadership (i.e. Daschle, Gephardt, the DNC, etc.) not doing more to reprimand Governor Davis for his outrageous behavior in the last few days? While simple politics would dictate that the party would try to embarass President Bush as much as possible, Davis's whining and crying simply is just not working ... even in a liberal Democratic state like California, the public clearly realizes that the electricity shortage is due to price controls and a lack of new generating capacity. The public there finally realizes that Bush is right ... their hostility to new power plants and market-driven energy prices has gotten them into serious trouble. His standing in the polls is rapidly dropping, and both the California and national Democratic parties risk serious damage if they keep up this attack on George Bush, even with Jeffords being no longer an opponent of theirs. Davis is making a public fool of himself by suing the Federal Government, and it is probably going to get thrown out of court. He may even face a penalty for filing a frivolous lawsuit. Seems to me the best thing the Democrats could do right now is admit that the California energy policy has been a mistake, work with Bush the best they can to return the state to a market-driven economy, invest in new plants, and perhaps most important of all, take strong steps to curb the state's massive population growth, which is not only affecting their region but ours here in the DC-MD-VA area as well. While Bush is right that the market prices are the best way to go for now, you cannot have a market that just keeps on expanding forever ... eventually steps are going to have to be taken to curb growth ... here as well as there. Your thoughts?
Marc Fisher: I think you are making something far more complex than it is. The average taxpayer in California simply has not thought this through to the extent that you have. Prices are soaring, blackouts are rolling and the governor's not fixing it--that's the extent of the general public's thought process. Davis' numbers are plummeting, and Bush's will too as long as he's associated in the public mind with the California problem. The best political path for Bush is to stay out of California and wash his hands of the whole situation--until the rest of the country starts suffering blackouts. Then it's his problem.
Marc Fisher: That's all we have time for on this lovely day. Time to get out there and revel in the fact that it is about to be June and we've had none of our usual heat and humidity.
More next week. Thanks for coming along.
washingtonpost.com:
That was our last question today. Thanks to everyone who joined the
discussion.
Stay tuned to Live Online:
Got
Plans at 1 p.m. EDT
Internet
Fraud at 1 p.m. EDT
Privatizing
the Drug War at 1:30 p.m. EDT
.com
Live: Lycos Founder at 1:30 p.m. EDT
Dirda
on Books at 2 p.m. EDT
Art
of Jacob Lawrence at 2 p.m. EDT
Home
Front: Flea Markets at 2 p.m. EDT
Keep up with the latest in news, sports, politics and entertainment with
washingtonpost.com
e-mail newsletters.
|
|
© Copyright 2001 The Washington Post Company | 
