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Asian American History and Race Relations
With Ronald Takaki, Ph.D.
Professor of Ethnic Studies at Univ. of California, Berkeley
Tuesday, May 15, 2001; 2 p.m. EDT
What stereotypes do Asian Americans face today? How does the public view Asian Americans with the recent tensions between the U.S. and China? What is the current situation of diversity and race in America?
Celebrate Asian Pacific American Heritage month and talk with Ronald Takaki, Ph.D., professor of Ethnic Studies at the University of California, Berkeley.
Submit your questions to Ronald Takaki ahead of time or during the discussion.
As a professor, author and lecturer, Takaki has received various awards and lectured in Japan and the former Soviet Union. In his new book, "Double Victory: A Multicultural History of America in World War II: A history of America in World War II" Takaki takes a historical look at the lives of an ethnically diverse group of ordinary Americans struggling for equality at home and fighting for freedom overseas during WWII. His books include Pulitzer Prize nominated "Strangers from a Different Shore: A History of Asian Americans," "A Differrent Mirror, A History of Multicultural America," "Violence in the Black Imagination," a study of 19th century Black novelists, and "Pau Hana: Plantation Life and Labor in Hawaii."
Takaki received his Ph.D. in American history from Berkeley in 1967. After graduation, he was hired by UCLA to teach the university's first Black History course. He also co-found the UCLA Centers for African-American, Asian-American, Chicano, and Native-American Studies. Takaki is the grandson of Japanese plantation laborers in Hawaii.
The transcript follows.
Editor's Note: Washingtonpost.com moderators retain editorial control over Live Online discussions and choose the most relevant questions for guests and hosts; guests and hosts can decline to answer questions.
Ronald Takaki: Good morning from Berkeley, Ca. It is morning still here. This chat will be an adventure for me. This is my first time. I look forward to our chat. Aloha, Ron Takaki
Bowie, Md.:
Your intro. bio says you've written and taught about African-American studies as well as Asian. Is it true, as it appears to me, that Asian-Americans are more prejudiced towards African-Americans than Caucasians are? And what are the historical roots of Asian bigotry toward blacks?
Ronald Takaki: Dear Bowie: Thanks for your question. Yes, I taught the first "Negro" history course at UCLA. I remember walking into the immense lecture hall for the first time and the classroom was packed. Students were excited about this first Negro history course, and there was a lot of conversation. Suddenly, as I made my way to the podium, a silence descended and I could feel the students, wondering, "Funny, he doesn't look black."
I had to show the student that I had something they did not have -- a knowledge of history.
In terms of your question, I am not certain that Asian Americans are more prejudiced towards African Americans than Caucasians are. Asian Americans are a diverse people -- from China, Japan, Korea, the Philippines, and Southeast and South Asia. So, we can't generalize about them. You might be thinking about Korean-Black tensions and conflicts, like the one that exploded in LA. Many of those Korean merchants came here with stereotypes of Blacks that they received from U.S. media. Also they did not understand the economic basis of their poverty.
Washington, D.C.:
Ten years ago when I was working at Columbia University, a group of Asian American students was pushing the administration to start an Asian American studies program. Out of curiosity, I attended one meeting, but came away unconvinced by the need for such a program. Might you enlighten us as to what you think the impact of Asian American studies programs can make in this country, either academically, socially, or otherwise? Thank you Professor Takaki.
Ronald Takaki: Asian American studies is seeking to provide a more inclusive and hence more accurate history of our country and who Americans are. This information would enrich everyone.
New York, N.Y.:
Prof. Takaki,
What kind of research did you do for your most recent book? What was the most shocking thing you learned from your research? Thanks!
Ronald Takaki: My most recent book, "Double Victory: A Multicultural History of World War II," led me to understand that our military leaders believed there was no military necessity to drop the atomic bomb on Hiroshima. This included General Eisenhower and General MacArthur, as well as our Secretary of War, Henry L. Stimson.
Springfield, Mo.:
Dr. Takaki,
I'm a 3rd generation Japanese-American who grew up in Hawaii until I was 19 and have now lived in the mainland for the past 14 years.
Are there significant differences in Japanese-American or Asian-American perspectives on heritage and culture between those who grew up in Hawaii and those who grew up in the mainland? I realize that back in the 40's when folks in the mainland (and of course a few from Hawaii) were being interred that this was a source of differing perspectives about a lot of things, but 60 years later, are there other things that separate us (Hawaii-born and Mainland-born) or bring us together?
Thank you.
Sincerely, Peter A.
Ronald Takaki: Yes, there are significant differences. I was born and grew up in Hawaii, where whites have been and are a minority. So I came of age in a multicultural society. This enabled me and also other Japanese Americans in Hawaii to accept ourselves more easily than our counterparts on the mainland. We don't seem to experience an identity crisis to the same extent as mainland Japanese Americans. This will be changing on the mainland, however. Right now in California, for example, we are all minorities -- just like in Hawaii. Just imagine!
Silver Spring, Md.:
Suppose the US will be a war with an Asian power like China, Koreas or Japan, are there any legal safeguard to ensure that the Asian Americans will not go through what the Japanese Americans did during WWII?
Ronald Takaki: I worry about the increasing tensions between the U.S. and China. Already there are stereotypes of Chinese Americans as loyal to China, and even some talk about interning them in the event of war with China. The Wen Ho Lee case illustrates the distrust our own government views Chinese American scientists in nuclear weapons research. Meanwhile, intellectuals like Samuel Huntington warn about the "Clash of Civilizations." The new movie on "Pearl Harbor" will make many people think to "Remember Pearl Harbor" as the government pushes for the missile defense shield. All of this is unnecessary and unfortunate.
Rockville, Maryland:
In the next few years, what changes would you like to see made in society with regard to Asian Americans?
Ronald Takaki: thanks for your question. As a teacher, I would like to see the history of Asian Americans incorporated into courses called U.S. history. This is already happening, and the thrust in this direction will advance as the Asian American population increases. Asian American represent the fastest growing ethnic group in the U.S. They will be one tenth of the nation by 2050.
Harrison, N.J.:
What role do you see Asian Americans playing in American Society - small business owners, large scale entrapeneurs, middle management, executive management, etc? Also, could you comment briefly on the historical role of AAs in America?
Ronald Takaki: Thanks for your question. Asian Americans have played a vital role in the building of the U.S. economy -- in the 19th century, with the railroads, and the agriculture of Ca., also in industries -- they totalled 40 percent of the factory workers of San Francisco in 1870. Today, they are contributing significantly to the rise of the high tech industry of the U.S., which is the generator of the nation's economy. Imagine the Silicon Valley with Asian American engineers and technicians. Many of them are immigrants, given HI visas. So, the 21st century economy depends in an important way on Asian Americans.
Silver Spring, Md.:
This is not a question, but a comment: while the media has a generic heading of white for people with European ancestry, this heading seems to me too broad to make generalizations based on: there are significant differences between the historical experiences in America of white anglo-saxon immigrants, irish immigrants, Italian immigrants, Jewish immigrants, Romanian immigrants, etc.
Ronald Takaki: You are right. Please read my book, "A Different Mirror: A History of Multicultural America." I made a special effort to include the study of Irish and Jewish immigrants. "White" Americans are ethnically diverse. So are Asian Americans. We need to recognize this diversity.
Harrison, N.J.:
Do you feel the view of Asian Americans as a single group will continue, or will Korean-Americans, Chinese-Americans, Japanese-Americans, etc., separate themselves out and establish their own identity?
Ronald Takaki: Both are happening and will continue to happen. What is significant is the fact that in Asia there are no Asians, only Chinese, Vietnamese, Japanese, Koreans, etc. But in the U.S., there is a larger identity, transcending national identities, called Asian American.
Berkeley, Calif.:
Hi Ron. I'm glad to see that you are taking on this live chat! My question: What do you think are the short and long-term implications for the inclusion of Mike Masaoka's quotation (and modified JACL Creed) on the Japanese American national memorial in Washington, D.C.?
Ronald Takaki: Hi back. I wish the Masaoka quote had been deleted. The upside of the debate was that it was educational -- what was his role during WWII and what do we as Americans wish to remember and honor in terms of that past?
Herndon, Va.:
Dr. Takaki: Are there any "basic" divisions in the Asian-American community? Between the Chinese/Korean, Japanese/Vietnamese, for example?
Ronald Takaki: Yes, there are some basic divisions or differences. For example, the Chinese and Japanese came here as immigrants, in other words, they chose to migrate for economic or social reasons, whereas the Vietnamese are refugees, they were forced to come here for political reasons. This makes a difference in terms of how they relate to their adopted country. But, even with the refugees, most of them are settling in the U.S., having children born here, and have been transforming themselves into immigrants.
Falls Church, Va.:
How active have Asian-Americans been in U.S. politics? Do they tend to support one party or the other?
Ronald Takaki: For a long, long time Asian Americans have not participated in the political system. One reason why was the fact that they could not become naturalized citizens. The 1790 Naturalization Act required that applicants must be "white." And this law remained on the books until 1952. Many of the post-1965 immigrants come from Asian countries that do not practice democracy with electoral systems, and hence they are not familiar with our system. But this is changing, as Asian Americans become citizens, as their American-born children begin to vote, and as Asian Americans realize that politics is power and an instrument to protect their rights.
Washington, D.C.:
Professor Takaki: How do you feel about South Asian-American's claims that they are not included in the term Asian-American? How much longer will the divide between these terms last?
Ronald Takaki: Many, many South Asians have been claiming successfully their inclusion in the term Asian American. Think about history. After Ozawa in 1922 was denied naturalized citizenship by the Supreme Court because he was not "Caucasian," an Asian Indian named Bhagdad Singh Thind sued for citizenship but was turned down by the Supreme Court in 1923 because he was not "white." The history of discrimination unites all of us as Asians in America. And this discrimination is continuing to bring us together.
Arlington, Va.:
Do you think it's true and if so, do you think it's sad, that society and media seem unable to let Asian men be overtly sexual? I mean, they're not leading men unless they're doing karate and that's not romantic. Thanks.
Ronald Takaki: Yes, it is true and sad. We have Asian American women as news anchors but never Asian American men. And the karate identity assigned to the men only reinforces the stereotype and their identity as "foreign," apart from whether or not they are "romantic."
Bowie, Md.:
What are some of the most common misperceptions about Asian-Americans among other Americans?
Ronald Takaki: The most common is that we don't look "American," and don't have names that are "American." But it is not the fault of these Americans who have these misperceptions. There is a master narrative of American history -- the familiar but mistaken story about how this country was settled by European immigrants and how "American" means white or European in ancestry. My grandfather came here from Japan in 1886, before many European immigrants, but I still get asked questions like "how long have you been in this country?" or "Where did you learn to speak English?" In my scholarship, I have been offering a multicultural narrative that embraces a more inclusive and hence more accurate history of "we the people." Thanks for your question.
Centreville, Va.:
You mentioned the tensions between the USA and China. This has developed even more so from the political situations of the last decade or so. But from an even larger view, many other new people have arrived in the USA from Asia, Central America, and other places. The latest Census bears out the changes in America's demographics. For me, a descendent of Italian immigrants of the 19th Century, I see no reason to question the loyalties of people who have come here to join and participate in America's economy, culture and future. The motivations and loyalties of people living here are as complex as they are numerous. Would you agree that a wider discussion is needed to examine the phenomenon of the changing peoples of America, their view of their place in America, and that it might better open channels for discovery and understanding.
Ronald Takaki: I think we need to make a distinction between identity and "loyalty." Many immigrants, including Italians, wished to retain an identity with their homeland, this is cultural. "Loyalty" means political. We need to acknowledge that as immigrants, whether from Europe or Asia, they come here to settle, make America their home, and also their nation.
Duluth, Minn.:
Are we not at an 'opportune time' to relive the 40's in all it's detentions and incarcerations of a whole race out of fear and hate?
I grew up in a town in the Midwest where the best working man's restaurant on main street was called "The American Cafe," served Chinese cuisine and run by a Greek-American. It was symbolic of the melting pot that was North Dakota. But the fear that thrived then caused another Japanese American cafe owner to close his cafe when Pearl Harbor was bombed. He then opened it again without incident two weeks later after posting what was, in essence, a loyalty pledge to the nation, the townspeople -- even though he had come here as a small child. Will such loyalty pledges be necessary again? I hope not!
You say this type of situation can happen today -- where the government strips a race of it's rights? I am sorry to say I agree with you with the absolutism of a conservative administration and the action of the Supremes lately, we may be reliving that sad time again?
What can anyone do to ward off another such terrorism executed against a portion of our citizens?
Ronald Takaki: Thanks for your question. Significantly, the Japanese Americans in Hawaii were not the victims of mass internment. Yet there were more of them in the islands than on the mainland, and in fact military action had occurred there. Why were they not interned? Mainly because the military governor of Hawaii, General Delos Emmons, stated that the U.S. Constitution protects the rights of all Americans, citizens as well as immigrants. He argued that mass incarneration was "not the American way." I think his thinking and action should guide us in the present.
Lexington, Ky.:
If the movie Pearl Harbor is as transparent as it looks as portraying Americans as the flawless heroes of WWII, how do you think this will effect both Asian Americans and Asian nations?
Ronald Takaki: I wish the movie would show Japanese American soldiers fighting against the attacking planes and guarding the waterfronts of Honolulu, and Japanese Americans giving blood at emergency hospitals. They were angry that Japan had attacked "their country."
Fairfax, Va.:
When I was in college, I was required to read your book, "Strangers from a Different Shore: A History of Asian Americans", and still think that it's the best written book about the history of Asian Americans. Are we to expect another book about Asian Americans from you anytime soon? (I am an Asian immigrant, by the way.)
Ronald Takaki: Have you read "A Different Mirror" or "Double Victory" or "A Larger Memory." Thank you for letting me share my scholarship with you.
Scandi-American:
I had a 3rd generation Chinese-american friend who always countered the phrase, "You speak English well" with the return statement,
"You're doin' not too bad yourself"!
Ronald Takaki: thanks.
Reston, Va.:
Did your grandparents who worked as plantation laborers in Hawaii share with you about the aspects of their lives that they would want us to know about today?
Ronald Takaki: I knew my grandmother, but I was only 5 years old and we did not talk about the plantation days. But, I wrote a book, "Pau Hana: Plantation Life and Labor in Hawaii." While I was writing "Iron Cages" in Hawaii in 1997-78, my Uncle Richard asked me: "Hey, Ronald, why you no go write a book about us, huh? Your grandparents came from Japan to work on the plantations, and all of your aunties and uncles were born on the plantation." His question led me to study my family roots and to appreciate the diversity of the workers of Hawaii, and to learn a history that my grandmother was not able to share with me.
Washington, D.C.:
I am proud that I am an American of Japanese ancestry. I believe in this nation's institutions, ideals an traditions; I glory in her heritage; I boast of her history; I trust in her future.
Mike M. Masaoka
Staff Sergeant, 442nd
Regimental Combat Team
Civil Rights Advocate
What do you find so offensive about this that you would have deleted it?
Ronald Takaki: Actually, I like that quote. I share Masaoka's dream and his faith in the principles of our nation. It's just that there is so much controversy about his role in internment.
Annandale, Va.:
Dr. Takaki,
Could you explain a little what brought so many Japanese people to Hawaii in the early part of the 20th century? Of what economic class did they come from in Japan, that is, were they from the business community or agriculture or fishing?
Ronald Takaki: Like my grandparents, they came mostly from the farming classes, struggling against high taxes imposed on them by the expansionist government.
St. Louis, Mo.:
Professor: Please comment on the latest figures indicating wealth and education of Asian Americans. How well do they fare in the United States?
Ronald Takaki: There is a myth about Asian America "success," I think. It is true that the statistics show high levels of education and incomes, but Asian American communities are diverse. The Hmong, for example, have welfare rates higher than African Americans. Even within the Chinese American community, there is a poor and working class population. The poverty level in New York Chinatown is very high. Also the education statistics do not reveal the "glass ceiling": Asian Americans do not make as much as white counterparts with equivalent educations.
Harrison, N.J.:
Does the Asian American experience differ based on where you are in the country? I would say that the Californian Asian American experience is different than that in New York, and both are worlds apart from the experience in the South or MidWest. Keeping this in mind, do "Asian American" organizations have a responsibility to take a broader view instead of focusing on regional/local issues?
Ronald Takaki: Your point iw important. I think the recognition of regional varieties of Asian American experiences would underscore our diversities and multiplicities.
Ronald Takaki: Dear readers:
Thanks for letting me share my scholarship and stories with you. I hope you will read my books. They will offer more stories, told more vividly than my emails. Let me tell you what I have been striving to do as a teacher and scholar. I noted the power and pervasiveness of the master narrative of American history, which defines American as white. We have an opportunity at the beginning of this 21st century to challenge this narrative and to re-vision our nation's history. How can diverse Americans become "one people"? I believe that one path is for us to pursue the study of the past that includes all of us, making all of us feel connected to one another as "we the people," working and living in a nation, founded and "dedicated" (to use Lincoln's language) to the "proposition" that "all men are created equal." So, our expanding ethnic diversity of this century, a time when we will all be minorities, offers us an invitation to create a larger memory of who we are as Americans and to re-affirm our founding principle of equality. Let's put aside fears of the "disuniting of America" and warnings of the "clash of civilizations." As Langston Hughes sang, "Let America be America, where equality is in the air we breathe." Peace and best wishes to you and our country,
Ron Takaki
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