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America At War:
The Scene in Saudi Arabia
With Howard Schneider
Washington Post Foreign Service
Thursday, Oct. 11; 2 p.m. EDT
U.S. and British forces have continued their series of strikes in Afghanistan targeting al Qaeda training centers and the country's ruling Taliban. President Bush described the strikes as a "sustained, comprehensive and relentless" campaign against terrorism, and the strikes reportedly hit a variety of strategic targets.
Washington Post Foreign Service journalist Howard Schneider, currently in Saudi Arabia's capital city of Riyadh, was online Thursday, Oct. 11 at 2 p.m. EDT, to talk about reaction to the U.S. strikes on Afghanistan.
The transcript follows.
Editor's Note: Washingtonpost.com moderators retain editorial control
over Live Online discussions and choose the most relevant questions for guests and hosts; guests and hosts can decline to answer questions.
Plano, Tex.:
It seems to me that when you trace the roots of the idealogy of the terrorists and the money back to their source it always comes back to Saudi Arabia. The Saudi Royal Family actually funds many of the "schools" that teach the radical interpetations of Islam all around the world. Citizens of Saudi Arabia and other Gulf tates fund the lion's share of the budgets terrrorist organizations. Many of the leaders and the fighters of the groups fighting basic freedom and human rights are Saudi Born. To top it off, apparently the Saudi government is refusing to freeze the funds of Bin Laden and Company. How long is the USA going to have this blind stop that prevents dealing with the real source of the problem?
Howard Schneider: This is going to require a lot of soul searching on the part of the Saudis, and a lot of delicate diplomacy from elsewhere...This country is not monolithic. I have talked to many Saudis who view Sept. 11 as local wakeup call - particularly given the fact that some of their nationals appear to have been involved in the hijackings. People are asking: Where did they get these ideas, and starting to open to the fact that they are homegrown notions. Moving to deal with it, however, is difficult. A school teaching conservative Islam is not the same as a school encouraging terrorism. There are legitimate issues of belief and intellecutal freedom to consider. Also, don't blame all this on the Saudis...The probable "brains" behind bin laden are Egyptian; and while Gulf money has its role, the Islamic Group in Egypt had a very grass roots approach that allowed it to pull in money from many average Egyptians under the guise of mosque construction. That being said, they can do more, a fact which some are still in a bit of denial about.
Arlington, Va.:
Can U.S. forces serve their purpose for being in the Gulf region from bases in other countries (Bahrain, Qatar, Oman) and leave Saudi Arabia? Would doing so remove the resentment caused by U.S. troops in Saudi Arabia, home to Islam's two holiest places? Even pro-western Saudis seem to resent our troop presence; is it worth it?
Howard Schneider: Not really. Patrolling southern Iraq and watching the gulf for sanctions enforcement is a large effort. The base in Saudi is isolated, large and extremely secure. In addition, the U.S. has invested in a new command center there that would be difficult to leave. Finally, the u.s. is not just there for its own purposes, but at the invitation of the Saudis - training and helping equip their air force in anticipation of the day when the gulf countries can defend themselves.
Falls Church, Va.:
Mr. Schneider,
Thank you for your participation. Saudi Arabia is such a secretive nation -- what are the feelings of the Saudi people about the U.S. attacks on Afghanistan and their presence in Saudi? Is there any danger of a coup in Saudi Arabia or some type of revolution in which average citizens may revolt against the royal family?
Howard Schneider: The usual response when it comes to discussion of a coup is that Saudi Arabia twenty years from now will probably look much like Saudi Arabia today - maybe a bit more open, maybe with a bit more control on the breadth and profligacy of its royal family, probably with dissent still percolating but never getting out of hand. They have had a history of snail-like accommodation with domestict issues that may have to get a little more nimble to avoid trouble over jobs and the economy, for example. But keep in mind that when people talk of "rising unemployment" and economic difficulties, that could all be cured easily by curbing the number of foreign workers here and teaching their kids how to work for a living.
As for the attacks - revulsion, with sometimes more than a dose of understanding as to motive. It is not uncommon to find u.s. diploas hanging on the walls here. I was aggressively criticized by one young editor here this week over u.s. policy. He graduated from Oklahoma. They want to get along with us. They like us. They are upset about the course of events.
San Francisco, Calif.:
Are there any respected polling organizations you know of that are doing scientific opinion polls on the current views there toward recent events? I'm also wondering about the greater region, not just Saudi Arabia. We are hearing assertions that the bin Laden sympathizers are a small minority (we hear this about Pakistan, for example), but the people making these assertions seem to regard only stone-throwing, flag-burning protesters as sympathizers. What about the people who are not taking to the streets, how do they feel? What are the percentages, for which questions? Anectodal information is great, but is there any polling data?
Howard Schneider: sorry...lost my connection...Anyway...I was just with a local editor who did a seat of the pants poll - 312 of 312 SAudis like americans and america...312 hate americqan policy...as stated before, the vast majority wants to make things work, but feel we don't care about their interests or point of view
Washington, D.C.:
I have now read many essays on the cause of Islamic rage or discontent, and they all have the common theme of lack of participation in the political process by ordinary citizens (whether through journalism, voting, or other means), as well as economic stagnation. It seems like they go hand in hand -- restricting freedom also usually means restricting the creativity and ingenuity of people. How can a country like Saudi Arabia address these issues?
Howard Schneider: Yikes. You have hit a big issue there. When you ask Saudi officials about this, they tell the story of how in the 1950s radio was forbidden, and only when the clerics saw how it could be use to spread the Koran, did they permit it. I dont know what this means in the present context only that there is a large chunk of society here comfortable and engaged with the modern world - i am live on the internet from riyadh after all - and a large chunk that is not. moderating between the two has always been a private affair, carrid out in small meetings with various royal figures...The world maybe too big and complicated for that type of backroom massaging, but they will move only slowly to a substitute. There is much more freedom of information here now than only 15 years ago, for example, much more criticism of management. You don't lay gloves on the royal family or its privileges. but Al Jazeera, CNN, etc. flow freely. At the same time, i was locked out of half a dozen web sites i tried to visit today that the censor has forbidden.
Arlington, Va.:
Mr. Schneider,
Please forgive my ignorance, but your talk of unemployment grabbed my attention. Most Americans believe that every Saudi is part of the royal family and if not they are still extremely wealthy in their own right. Are there impoverished Saudis, middle class Saudis? I know that most of their domestic help comes from Indonesia, Sri Lanka, the Phillipines, Malaysia, etc. What sorts of job opportunities are there for college grads, or even someone straight out of high school? Thank you. KSA must be a fascinating place in which to live and work.
Howard Schneider: I actually live in Cairo, but that is another story. P.S. first to the previous question: An issue is how to develop a society when kids cannot express their natural talents - writing, painting, music, dance, drama, etc. This is a toughie for them....
Re unemployment: There is plenty of money and there are plenty of jobs. The problem the kingdom is facing is that they are not educating and training their kids to fill those jobs...NOt all are members of the royal family. some are poor and rural - thoiugh nowhere near the level of say, egypt. Per capita GNP has dropped here from a level equal to the u.s. in 1980 down to roughly thirty percent of that. Tyhe have huge bils coming due to provide enough water and electricity and schools - all of which is subsidized by the royals in a sort of we'll pay the bills nad you keep your mouth shut arrangement. Now they need to worry about wealth creation and job creation - putting their oil to work, not just spending the proceeds. There are mnay complaints from managers that saudis do not want to do the dirty work - they expect to go write from college to management. Nobody here is starving, but transitioning from foreign labor to the dirt and grime of making a living yourself is the change they are having trouble with.
Redmond, Wash.:
CNN reported this morning that Saudi Arabia had refused to freeze bin Laden's assets. However, I have been unable to confirm that report through other news sources. Has Saudi Arabia in fact refused to freeze his assets or has it taken some other position?
Howard Schneider: CNN - as is usual - drew its report from elsewhere, in this case namely the New York Times, in a dispatch from its washington bureau. Control of funds here has historically been a problem, though I cannot confirm for you specifically that Saudi has refused to freeze any account requested by the U.S. I dont know enough about the issue yet to be definitive.
Virginia:
Adams' book, "Financing of Terror," mentioned that Saudi Arabia gave millions of petrodollars to the PLO since the 1970s. Is Saudi Arabia immune from terrorism?
Howard Schneider: Hardly. they certainly have had terrorism on their soil - the bombing of khobar towers in 1996 (19 americans dead), a national guard training facility (five americans dead), and even a small bomb over the weekend in which an american was killed. My guess is that many more plots get foild than we know about. AS far as money to the plo in the 1970s - just about everbody was doing that. It was sort of a low point in relations - dont' forget the oil embargo.
Alexandria, Va.:
Since Sept. 11 any U.S. initiative in solving the Arab-Israeli conflict has become a lose-lose proposition.
If President Bush proposes a new Israeli-Palestinian peace plan, and that plan is more favorable to the Palestinians than were President Clinton's bridging proposals, will people in Saudi Arabia conclude that this improvement was a result in some way of the Sept. 11. attacks?
If the plan is essentially the same as the bridging proposals of December 2000 then the Saudis will complain that the U.S. even proposed it when the Palestinians had already made clear last December that Israel must agree to the so-called "right of refugees to return."
Howard Schneider: It is difficult isn't it. There seems to be a bit of "cover" developing on this - the Egypttian foreign minister recently said in a speech that Mubarak and Bush had talked about statehood for the palestinains prior to sept. 11, an important piece of information.
Brooklyn, N.Y.:
The Islamic states say they do not want any Palestinian groups on the terror list. If we explain that purposely killing civilian men, women and children for political or religous is terrorism would that help convince them?
Howard Schneider: Probably not. The solution to this will not rest with political science definitions of the word terrorism. Essentially, if there is a felt need continuing for the Palestinians to fight for self-determination, than almost any group or organization invovled in that will not be accepted as terrorist by the Arabs. Religious scholars accept this as well as laymen - it is okay to do almost anything to defend your home. I have heard distinctions drawn by clerics over offensive versus defensive conflict, the latter being wide open, the former including prohibitions even against harming animals and plants.
Foggy Bottom:
Is King Fahd actually in control of the daily operations in Saudi Arabia or has he ceded power to his brother Abdullah? And, does Abdullah or Fahd generally make all the decisions or do several royals and advisors contribute? Thank you. I would like to learn more about Saudi Arabia- can you recommend any good books?
Howard Schneider: King Fahd is titular ruler, but power rests first with the Crown Prince Abdullah, and more broadly with a circle of elder half-brothers...They consult, squabble, influence and connive depending on the issue...It is, to say the least, opaque...You can see that with the response to the war on terrorism - the defense minister and interior minister were much stronger publicly in announcing limits on american rights during the conflict in afghanistan...Behind the scenes it got worked out with abdullah, though this was probably more for public effect than any difference in opinion.
Plano, Tex.:
I am a little confused about Bin Laden's claim that Saudi Arabia is a Holy Land. Certainly there are sites Holy to Islam, but the modern country of Saudi Arabia didn't exist when Islam was formed. Is all of Saudi Arabia holy to Islam, and how did a 20th Century country achieve that high status?
Howard Schneider: Keep in mind that this may be (dont hold me to this jeopardy question) the only country in the world named for a family (i was about to say person, but then there is amerigo vespucci...) that governs it...the argument that all of saudi is holy land is not broadly accepted. the claim goes to the fact that saudi includes the hejaz province, where mecca and medina are located. Those are the two cities central to the founding of Islam - Mecca being the home of the Prophet Mohammed until he was forced to leave by non-believers and go on his journey of escape to Medina, where his revelation was accepted and the stage set for his return home. As a pillar of their faith, all muslims are supposed to make the pilgrimage (haj) to Mecca once in their life. Politically allied with a very conservative clergy schooled in the Wahhabi tradition - so named for a cleric who helped the consolidation of Al Saud rule from the beginning - the regime is very much identified with the religion. The king in fact has a formal title: Custodian of the Two Holy Mosques. The broader identification of all of Saudi as Holy Land is, as I said, not widely accepted...
Silver Spring Maryland:
At the emergency session of the Organization of the Islamic Conference (which represents 56 nations containing 1.2 billion Muslims) the spokesman for the conference, Qatar foreign minister, Sheik Hamad bin Jasim bin Jabir al-Thani, reportedly said "We don't blame the United States, because what happened in the United States is a big tragedy. Six thousand people were killed in one day, and they were killed by terrorist action. We don't generally support military action. But then again, we don't support terrorism either, and we also have to identify terrorism and see its causes, which is why we asked for it to be discussed at the United Nations in the future."
This statement was interpreted by Nightline correspondents as a dramatic and bold statement recognizing the fact that root causes for extremist terrorism exist in the Middle East and that nations like Qatar are beginning to publicly acknowledge their need to address the matters at home.
I realize there are significant areas of disagreement between the U.S. and Qatar on several unresolved issues, notably the Palestinian/Israeli conflict. But even the Saudi Foreign Minister, Saud al-Faisal, told reporters at the conference that Muslim states wanted to help "eradicate terrorism, which harms the Islamic world and Islamic causes and has never served the Palestinian cause."
My questions are: Do you believe this represents a significant opportunity for the U.S. to reinforce the building of bridges based on areas of common understanding? If so, how do you see this serving as a foundation for other more timid countries to join in the effort to eradicate the universal threat of terrorism?
Howard Schneider: I think there is tremendous potential: Look at the incredible reaction bush got just by visiting a mosque. My sense is that the great majority of Arabs really are yearning for acceptance and a sense of respect for the west - acknowledgement that there religion, culture and society has made great contributions that they would like to continue. There is a problem of dialogue: In Egypt, for example, there will be daily criticism of U.s. miltary aid to Israel, but NEVER a mention of u.s. modernizatoin of Egypt's force, a large and sustained committment that has made that country secure.
Somewhere, USA:
Mr. Schneider, my question is why the Saudi Royal family has failed to come down unequivocally and decisively in support of the U.S. position against the Taliban and the war. Only under the greatest pressure the Saudis broke relations with the Taliban and the Saudias have refused to allow U.S. planes to fly from Saudi bases against Afghanistan. This is despite the fact the Bin Laden's primary goal is to topple the Saudi Royal family. The Saudi government is authoritarian and repressive with all of the wealth in the hands of a few and I believe these so called "moderate" Arab governments are very much to blame for the rise of fundamentalist Islam.
Howard Schneider: It is very difficult for them to simply pull the string on a fellow "Islamic" state - even one as on the fringe as the Taliban. Keep in mind that when the Bamyan Buddhas were destroyed, there were, I understand, more than a few voices here that felt the Taliban were doing the right thing. Also keep in mind that when they did pull their embassy from Kabul, the language was very harsh about the taliban's un-Islamic nature - the type of discourse and argument that can be as helpful to the U.s. right now as more material military concessions. They have fed fundamentlism - through lack of democracy, control of wealth, etc. Moving to alternatives, however, will not happen overnight.
Washington, D.C.:
Do you think we can ever expect a peaceful Middle East to arise without some sort of broad, fundamental change to the methods of governance in the region? Without some viable and sustaniable outlet of political expression for the masses in these countries (such as democratic institutions), it seems to me that religion will continue serve as a the only political tool of the disgruntled -- a dangerous and disturbing thought, considering where we are now. Your thoughts?
Howard Schneider: I think you're right, but it is going to proceed differently in every country. Syria is much further from political openness than Egypt for example; Egypt has an incredible swirl of opionion and argument, but is short on real information given to the people about what there government does. A problem is that people here wake up in countries like Egypt not knowing day to day what the rules are - whether it is a free speech month, or a keep your mouth shut month. That stifles a lot of creativity.
Teaneck, N.J.:
This is a very basic question: How many U.S. troops are in Saudi Arabia now? How many U.S. troops are in Egypt now?
Howard Schneider: U.S. troops in Saudi are about 4,000 all dedicated to southern Iraq issues...the ones in Egypt now that you might have read about are there for a regular training exercise that to my knowledge has not been expanded to include what is underway in Afghanistan. The regular u.s. miliatry presence in Egypt is limited to adviser sand some technical personnel, and a few troops under command of the multinational force that observees the egypt-israeli border.
Jamestown, Ky.:
What is Saudi Arabia's present and possible future role(s) in aiding or assisiting the U.S. with the present battle?
Howard Schneider: Limited. they will not play a visible role, though in all probability commanders are using equipment stationed south of here to control the air battle.
Laurel, Md.:
"One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter," but to Americans there's an important distinction between our targeted attacks on Afghani terrorist sites designed to minimize civilian casualties, and the attacks on Sept. 11 which were principally targeted at killing innocent people.
To us, that's one of the things that makes us the good guys. Do Saudis and other people in the Muslim world consider this an important difference between the two sides, or is it all just they attack us, we attack them?
Howard Schneider: This is a distinction that won't get much play...There is a sort of ethnocentric and geopolitical evaluation made by many people...1)that because the u.s. is a superpower it is held to a different standard in conflict, and is not allowed to make any mistakes, ever....2)that because the afghans are muslim, and most americans are not, that holding them accountable is problematic for many here...
The language becomes difficult: "Targeting civilians?" Why would the u.s. target civilians? But it is accepted that america does target civilians...I have never heard a sort of tactical means and ends discussion on the issue here.
Washington, D.C.:
How long have you been in Riyadh? Long enough to experience the great fatwas against Pokemon, Thanksgiving and Valentine's Day? Is the muezzin at al-Kindi mosque (across from the U.S. Embassy) still broadcasting,in English, sermons about the evils of Christianity? Do you find, as I did, that plenty of Saudis agree that bin Laden's wahhabi Islamic religious views are the true faith?
Howard Schneider: Dont know about the mosque, but I will surely ask. that is a good one. Yes i have been around for all the fatwas mentioned, and agree that there is a large purist constituency here.
But as an end note before signing off, keep in mind that I now own a 2CD Tupac Shakur collection sanitized of all the bad words, courtesy of saudi arabia. It's still got a good beat, and I would rather have that in the house, with my kids around, than the original.
Thanks for a good discussion...
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