America At War:
Journey Through Afghanistan
With Lucian Perkins
Washington Post Photographer
Tuesday, Dec. 18, 2001; 11 a.m. EST
Washington Post Photographer Lucian Perkins recently returned from assignment in Afghanistan. After covering the Sept. 11th attacks in New York City, he traveled to Afghanistan for five weeks where he made a harrowing journey through the Anjuman Pass during a winter storm and photographed the fall of Kabul.
Perkins was online Tuesday, Dec. 18 at 11 a.m. EST and talked about his journey.
The transcript follows.
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Colorado Springs, Colo.:
It's good to see you're back safely Lucian. Can you talk about the political situation in Afghanistan? How difficult was it to travel through the country? What challenges do the people face there at the conclusion of this war? How big of a humanitarian problem looms on the horizon for the people of Afghanistan?
Lucian Perkins: Hello everyone! It is great to be back home and to be on line online. The first question I could almost spend an hour on by itself.
Before I left two weeks ago the political situation was a bit dicey and Im sure it still is. It is still possible that the various Mujahideen factions throughout Afghanistan can, as they did in the mid-nineties, begin to fight each other for more power and control. Parts of Kabul is a vast wasteland from those former civil wars. But the fact that the International community is taking a more active role, that the various Mujahideen factions seem well aware of the mistakes they made in the past, and the success of the recent conference in Germany point that this may not happen again. However, as a journalist traveling through Afghanistan and moving through areas controlled or not controlled by various groups it is still a dangerous place. The immediate challenge facing Afghanistan and its people is creating an environment safe for everyone. As for the Humanitarian issue, that will largely depend on whether relief groups can safely travel through Afghanistan. I suspect that that will happen soon.
Vienna, Va.:
I imagine you could write volumes on your experience. On NPR a few days ago, a woman discussed life in Kabul during the 1940's. From her description it was a beautiful, thriving, cosmopolitan city. Is there any hint of what it once was?
Lucian Perkins: You see very little evidence of what life was like in Kabul in the 40s or even in the 70s when it was a popular destination for young Americans and Europeans. Last February when I was in Kandahar a sympathizer for the Taliban told me how forcing the women of Kabul to wear Burkas was a big priority since their beauty and deviousness would hinder the Taliban army from fighting. The fact was that before the Taliban Kabul was by far the most international city in Afghanistan.
Chicago, Ill.:
Were you in any danger over there? Were you in the caravan that the three journalists who were killed -- and WP's Pam Constable was in?
Lucian Perkins: I was in more danger than I expected. I was not with Pam when she traveled in the caravan, but was already in Kabul. I had traveled into Afghanistan from Tajikistan. One of the most dangerous parts of my trips was traveling through the Panjir vally, which is documented in a story by Keith Richburg. It was not the Taliban, but very dangerous roads high in themountains. Later I followed the Taliban as they fought their way in Kabul. That proved to be a lot more dangerous than I bargained for as we were shelled and shot at.
Plano, Tex.:
One big problem I have with the visual coverage of Afghanistan is that every single picture seems to be on rocky barren soil. Since over 20 million people live in a country far too poor to import all their food, there has to be some place to grow food. I understand there is a reasonable amount of good farm land in the South, and some usable farmland in other places. Why are the images coming out of the country so distorted?
Lucian Perkins: The most fertile lands I saw in Afghanistan was in the Panjir valley, but even that area was affected by the drought. I did see plenty of fresh fruit and vegetables in Kabul, though it may not have been affordable to many Afghans. However, many parts of the country, especially the remote areas are suffering tremendously. When I was in Afghanistan last Feburary, we traveled through some of those areas and visited refugee camps where tens of thousands Afghans lived because their livestock had died and they had eaten all of their seeds, because of the lack of rain.
Paris, France:
Hey, Lucian, can you tell the audience where you developed your horse riding skills for that journey across the mountain top? And what happened to the poor horse that fell in the river with your gear? (by the way, I was there on that treacherous horse trip, in case you couldn't guess who it is -- it's Richburg).
Lucian Perkins: Hello Keith, Glad you made it back safe and sound. Thanks for the horse riding lessons by the way. Can I charge the Post for that one? As for the horse with our gear, I don't know what happen to it. I was so cold, tired, and scared at the point that I just kept looking forward hoping that I wouldn't fall off the cliff. By the way, don't quite the Post to start a career in Horse training:-)
Alexandria, Va.:
What percent of the people in Kabul are Pashtun? Were they also happy to see the Taliban overthrown?
Lucian Perkins: A mojority of the people in Kabul are not Pashtun--I can't give you the percentages off the top of my head. From what people told me, most of the Pashtuns that were Taliban left the city, though I suspect they will make their way back when things settle down. When I was in Kabul I did have a number of pro-Taliban types approach me to complain about life after the Taliban. But a vast majority of the people were literally dancing in the streets when the Taliban left.
Wildomar, Calif.:
What equipment did you take, film or digital? How many? What range of lenses? I know the new digital cameras eat batteries like crazy and you weren't likely to find convenient outlets for rechargers. How did you get your images back in a timely fashion? What advice do you have for photographer who want to venture into this part of the world?
Lucian Perkins: I used digital cameras--for the first time as a matter of fact. Before I left our "Tech" department set me up with everything I needed. I had a laptop computer, a Sat phone, and plugs to charge my equipment from the Cigarette ligther in the car--as you can imagine, we were without electircity much of the time. The advantage of the digital camera was that I was able to download my pictures on the laptop,edit them and then send from 2-10 images to the Post via my Sat phone. That is how I usually spent my evenings.
Washington, D.C.:
Welcome back Lucian, it's Bill Crandall.
Worried about you after reading about
your trek through the blizzard. How'd you
manage to transmit images after the gear
fell in the drink?
Lucian Perkins: Luckily, I had all of my equipment well wrapped in my clothes. They got wet and my equipment was just a little damp.
Brooklyn, N.Y.:
Lucian,
What was the most shocking thing you
saw?
Lucian Perkins: During the ground assault, what surprised me the most was that there were very few Taliban (Afghans) killed. All the dead bodies I saw were either Arab or Pakistani. As it turned out, over the years under Taliban rule the Afghans developed a deep hatred for these groups, who had great power in Afghanistan with the blessing of the Taliban.
Colorado Springs, Colo.:
How did you make the connection in your mind when you covered this story between Sept. 11th and this war?
Lucian Perkins: I think I made the connection after entering Kabul and seeing the "safe houses" where member of al Queda trained. I got the feeling that people were coming into Afganistan by the thousand to train for war, not only in American, but for wars in Chechnya, China, Philippines , etc. One prisoner, I interviewed from Saudi Arabia, for example, came to Afghanistan to train to fight in Chechnya. I also started to understand why many Afghans felt their country was being controlled by groups likeal Queda.
Morgan Hill, Calif.
How would you know if a dead body was Afghan, Pakistani, Arab, or other?
Lucian Perkins: When I crossed the front lines in Bagram, I had the Northern Alliance show my translator the documents of the dead soldiers we saw.
New York, N.Y.:
Where can we send items such as clothes or children's toys to be sent to Afghanistan?
Lucian Perkins: Hopefully Post.com can give you some contacts.
Hibbing, Minn.:
Hey, Lucian, had a great time in Moscow. How did the digital camera work out? Did you have trouble with the dust, and keeping the batteries charged? Or did you go back to shooting film? Are you going to do some more web projects with the rest of your photos?
Lucian Perkins: Digital cameras still have some bugs to be worked out. I found the delay very annoying (but newer models claim to solve this problem). The dust in Afghanistan was unbelievable, you had to keep all of your equipment well wrapped. Keeping my batteries charged required advance planning. At the very least I would charge them in my car. After the new year I plan to redo my website.
Bethesda, Md.:
From what you saw in AFghanistan, how long do you think the country will be in turmoil and from the landscap[ing of the Tora Bora, do you believe bin Laden can be found?
Lucian Perkins: There is a saying in Afghanistan that whatever you predict that will happen there won't. As a matter of fact, hen I arrived in Afghanistan and stayed with the Northern Alliance, I predicted that Kabul would not fall until early next Spring. Boy was I wrong, so I won't even try to predict whether bin Laden will be found.
Brooklyn, N.Y.:
Hi Lucian,
Welcome back, pal. Can you tell us , from
facing possible termination (of course
you had us all worried), as your life may
have passed before your eyes a few
times, what any new wisdom you have
learned.
Lucian Perkins: Luckily, it didn't get to the point where my life almost passed before my eyes, but I did say a number of times over and over again "this is the stupidist thing I ever did," especially being so close with the Northern Alliance as there offensive began and my trip through the Panjir valley,which I will never do again. I think if I have learned anything from this trip is the resiliency of humanity. This trip was worth just riding in Kabul and seeing the hope on its residents that a better life may be ahead for them. I hope it is.
washingtonpost.com:
How you can help: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A25271-2001Sep13.html
washingtonpost.com:
How you can help: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A25271-2001Sep13.html
washingtonpost.com:
How You Can Help
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How You Can Help
Washington, D.C.:
How restricted are journalists from covering the war? Did you feel that you or other journalists were being kept away from what was really happening?
Lucian Perkins: I believe journalist were restricted mostly because of geography and the danger of war. For example, it was almost impossible to get to Kandahar for most of the war, and even now because it is very dangerous. The U.S. forces haven't been particularily cooperative, but if we could get there, like Mazar-e-Sharif, journalist were able to cover events. Unfortunately, a number of journalist died just by traveling in Aghanistan.
Duluth, Minn.:
Lucian Perkins: I think we're in a fine mess right now, no matter what our good or bad intentions. But what I do wonder about is the future state of an independent Afghanistan: copper and some rare gems do exist that could build a stable economy?... and if Afgahnistan is explored or exploited as an oil pipeline corridor, who will essentially benefit? How do we get ourselves out of this mess after bombing the heavens out of this nation ... terrorists will sprout like dandelions somewhere else? What really do we accomplish long-range and who will really benefit economically?
Thanks for your coverage always ; almost forgot to be gracious
here for you and all journalists who are truly folk heroes to be honored ...
Lucian Perkins: Afghanistan has been a mess for over twenty years now. The best way we can get out of this mess, as well as Afghanistan, is to insure that a stable government is in place that will provide a future for Afghanistan. The good news is that the international community and the people and leaders of Afghanistan seem commited to that. Let's hope everyone keeps their end of the bargain and people like you insure that they do.
Windsor, Conn.:
Do you think the interm government will be effective in securing stability or do you think the country will fall into civil war?
Lucian Perkins: They face a huge challenge and will need dedicated help from the international community.
Alexandria, Va.:
What do you think needs to happen to keep the Taliban from taking power again?
Lucian Perkins: The most important thing is that the country doesn't fall into civil war as it did in the early nineties--that was the seed that brought the Taliban to power.
Washington, D.C.:
Regarding your comment about cosmopolitan Kabul in the 40's and 70's -- Tamim Ansary wrote an interesting piece on www.salon.com about the West imposing standards on Afgan women that their culture may not necessarily want. He's not saying that women belong in burqas, but he does point out that the women in mini skirts were a small, urban minority. Rural Afghanistan was always very different. It's a very interesting piece and worth reading for a different perspective.
Lucian Perkins: Cosmopolitan is too strong of a word. I'll have to read the story. Ironically, as I understand it, the Soviet Union, imposed much of the westernization of Kabul and Afghanistan. Much of the world is undergoing a "clash of cultures" which I believe is a large part of why Bin Laden exists.
Washington, D.C.:
Lucien,
When I first saw pictures coming out of people dancing in the streets, I was a little skeptical and wondered how selective these photos were.
Is it your sense the MOST of the people in Kabul were relieved to see the Taliban go? I heard yesterday that the pictures of Afghani's celebrating have had a sobering effect on other Muslim fundamentalists, particularly in Pakistan.
Lucian Perkins: I was one of the first journalist that arrived in Kabul the morning the Taliban fled. As we drove in, I did not know what to expect. I was even worried that we might be attacked. As it turned out, people were literally dancing in the streets. Our car was mobbed with people hugging us and throwing confetti at us. It was an unbelievable scene
Alexandria, Va.:
It seems that all of the photos in the media deal with the rocky nature of the fighting. Where are the pictures of the Afgans living their daily lives? What are they doing to survive? What do their farms look like? Etc.
Lucian Perkins: I actually did a number of stories on life in Kabul. You can check them out at "Camera Works." However, these stories do seem to get lost in the heavy news coming from Afghanistan. Hopefully, we can start paying more attention to the people of Afghanistan.
Lucian Perkins: I apologize for the many questions I did not get to. I'll have to learn to type faster. Thank you for your interest in journalism and Afghanistan. I look forward to coming back here soon. Best wishes, Lucian
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