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America Attacked
With Vernon Loeb
Washington Post reporter
RESCHEDULED Friday, Sept. 21, 2001; 1 p.m. EDT
Tuesday, Sept. 11, in a horrific series of events, hijacked planes hit and destroyed the twin towers of the World Trade Center and crashed into the Pentagon in what's being described as the single worst act of terrorism on U.S. soil. The Bush administration and law enforcement officials are actively seeking those responsible and have declared war on terrorism.
Washington Post reporter Vernon Loeb will be online Friday, Sept. 21 at 1 p.m. EDT to talka about developing national security issues.
Loeb covers defense and national security issues and writes a biweekly column exclusively for the Web. His newspaper column, is also carried by this Web site.
The transcript follows.
Editor's Note: Washingtonpost.com moderators retain editorial control
over Live Online discussions and choose the most relevant questions for guests
and hosts; guests and hosts can decline to answer questions.
Vernon Loeb: Greetings all. This is a busy time, so let me get right to your questions and try to answer as many as possible.
Arlington, Texas:
Mr. Loeb,
Fingerpointing in a time of crisis should not be taken to extremes, but I find it disheartening that the CIA did not do more to avert this crisis. There were signs of an enormous intelligence breach when the CIA was caught by suprise by Pakistan and India's nuclear capability (which has come back to bite us now that there is instability in Pakistan over a U.S. response to the Taliban). There were signs of major procedural flaws when Islamic terrorist cells were able to bomb the U.S.S. Cole after previously failing to bomb the U.S.S. The Sullivans, and the bombings in Saudi Arabia, Kenya, and Tanzania.
The CIA needs a major overhaul; what do you think this will entail? Will it involve much more human infiltration in foreign governments that are not necessarily hostile to the U.S. such as India and Pakistan? Should George Tenet resign as chief of the CIA?
I, and many Americans familiar with national security, believe the fault for this tragedy lies directly on CIA ineptness, regardless of the whether or not it was hamstrung by laws that detract from "Human Intelligence".
Vernon Loeb: I agree that the CIA, and the broader $30 billion U.S. intelligence community, is in need of a major overhaul. For starters, I think last week's terrorist attacks show that the CIA's Directorate of Operations has to figure out new strategies for penetrating terrorist organizations and collecting intelligence about them. I also think there are tremendous redundancies in the community that should be eliminated, so that funds and people can be focused on priorities that really matter. I think much better use must be made of an avalanche of open source information and expertise. I think the NSA needs alot more money to retool itself for sigint in the digital age. Obviously, a serious language problem still exists. The list goes on and on. One caveat in all this: Because the CIA and the community are so secretive, it's hard to know what their capabilities are in all of these areas, and how much recent reforms may have helped. No one that I know on the outside, including former CIA counterterrorism operatives, really seems to have much of a grasp on what the CIA Counterterrorist Center's capabilities really are. It could be a lot better, or a lot worse, than we imagine. I just don't know. The people on the outside who should know_members of the Senate and House intelligence communities_don't seem to have much of a clue either. They should be held accountable for overseeing that center, or failing to. As for whether George Tenet should resign, I think that would be counterproductive, particularly at the current moment. We need somebody who can make the CIA respond NOW to the current crisis, and Tenet can probably do that as well as anyone else. I also think Tenet's strategic vision for the CIA as, first and foremost, an espionage agency, has been shown, by this latest crisis, to be on the mark. What Tenet needs, more than to be fired, is the money, the freedom from DOD interference, and the high-level support to start the reform process, in ernest.
Washington, D.C.:
Hi. I keep hearing how the Taliban won't hand over Bin Laden without receiving proof that he was responsible for the attacks. But I don't hear anything regarding the United States showing the Taliban proof. Are we just ignoring the Taliban's rhetoric, or does the Bush administration plan to send evidence, documents, etc. that implicate Bin Laden. Or has Pakistan already relayed some of this evidence to the Taliban?
Vernon Loeb: I've heard some talk about the administration sending a delegaton, but the president seemed to suggest last night that he's way beyond that: He presented a list of non-negotiable demands. No matter what the U.S. gives the Taliban in the way of evidece, they're no handing bin Laden over, in my opinion.
Alexandria, Va.:
What are the prospects for aiding the Taliban's opponents in Afghanistan? What about the Iraqi resistance?
Vernon Loeb: The head of the Northern Alliance, the Taliban's opposition,Ahmed Shah Massoud, was assassinated, probably by people linked to bin Laden, two days before the World Trade Center/Pentagon attacks. So I suppose it's fair to say there is leaership void. There's certainly been talk since the attacks about stepping up our support for the Northern Alliance. As for the Iraqi opposition, the Bush administration is still formulating it's thinking as to how much money and support it wants to give the Iraqi opposition. I certainly think this latest crisis will mean they will get more, though I'm not sure anyone really believes the Iraqi opposition groups can get that far in toppling Saddam, without massive U.S. support.
Washngton, D.C.:
Hi Vernon. Been hearing rumors about the possibility of more attacks this weekend. Have you heard anything about the Rose Bowl being a target? My family is going to be there this weekend. Thanks.
Vernon Loeb: I have not heard anything about the Rose Bowl, and while I think everyone needs to remain vigilant about the possibility of future terrorist attacks, bin Laden's pattern has been that his people vanish and lay low after a major attack. I personally wouldn't suspect another bin Laden attack this weekend. Bin Laden's people are patient, and it takes them months, even years, to put new attacks together.
Akron, Ohio:
I wish to address one topic that I have seen
little written about. Dick Cheney touched on
it briefly in Sunday's interview on Meet the
Press. I think the terrorists were seeking to
crash into the White House, but couldn't find
it. It probably is hard to locate from the
air (especially flying low) while traveling
at 300-400 miles per hour. Everyone is
speculating about the Pittsburgh crash being
headed for the White House, but I think the
Pentagon crash was set for the White House. I
think they decided to "settle" for the
Pentagon, which may have been the backup plan
all along. You should write about who was in
the White House at that time and would
Cheney, who was in the bunker, and others
have been able to survive? When did he reach
the bunker?
Vernon Loeb: Your question is more fascinating than my answer. That being the case, I will answer it with a basic non-answer, so that everybody else can read your question. My non-answer: I don't know anything about any of the issues you raised. If anybody else can do better than I, send in your answers as questons to me, and I'll put them in play.
Raleigh, N.C.:
Vernon -
Can you characterize the state of U.S. intelligence before September 11? Was the intelligence community taking these threats seriously before the attacks? Were we watching al Queda closely?
I've found it hard to get a meaningful assessment of this point from the coverage. (And, fyi, hello Vernon. This is Tim from Raleigh. We're enjoying your work).
Vernon Loeb: While it's hard for me to assess the effectiveness of the U.S. intelligence community before Sept. 11, I can say with some certainty that the CIA, FBI and NSA, among others, were all taking bin Laden enormously seriously before the attacks and were focusing tremendous resources on him and his network. I think it's fair to say that hundreds and hundreds of people in the intelligence community, from CIA case officers to FBI agents to NSA analysts to photo interpreters at the National Imagery and Mapping Agency have done nothing for the past three years but work the bin Laden problem. Now, you can take all that and say, well, they all must be inept as hell. Or, you can say, that must mean bin Laden's people are really, really good and have exercised tremendous communications discipline and operational security. The truth, as it almost always is, probably falls somewhere in the middle of those two extremes.
Washington, D.C.:
What can Bush and Congress do to maintain the overwhelming amount of support they have received so far? After the initial "rallying around the flag" reaction, public as well as global support will become increasing wary of engaging in continuous military action. Also, will the role of the media help to increase or decrease public support?
Vernon Loeb: I thought Princeton Professor Michael Walzer, writing in today's New York Times, put it best: "We have to find legitimate targets...and we must be able to hit those targets without killing large numbers of innocent people." My only addition to that formula for success and maintaining the coalition would be that we must try, as best as possible, to kill NO innocent people. As for whether the media can help or not, to the extent that it can inform the debate and hold officials accountable in upholding American princples, yes, I think the media will be helpful. I'm biased, of course. I know all the people at the Pentagon and the intel community see us as a great threat to sources and methods, but I personally would hate to see the U.S. prosecute a war without a free media around to hold them accountable. The media is protected by the First Amendment to the Constitution for a very important reason_which sets us apart from most other countries on earth. Freedom of expresion happens to be one of the reasons we're fighting this war.
Babylon, N.Y.:
How do the President's father and James Baker ensure that the Carlyle Group's Middle East investments and investors are not associated with terrorists? Surely that has to an issue of extreme sensitivty concern to the White House and to the Bush family.
Vernon Loeb: Great question, for which I have no answer. But, again, it's one of those questions that I want to put in play for others to ponder. Thanks for participating.
San Jose, Calif.:
I keep hearing media reports that Bin Laden and other extremists have a substantial amount of local support in Afghanistan, in part becuase the local population is very far out of touch with the outside world. Why isn't there talk of taking measures such as a combined program of radio broadcasts and airdropping radios into Afghanistan in order to reduce local support for terrorism?
Vernon Loeb: I think we're way beyond propoganda campaigns, at the present moment. And, quite frankly, I don't think it would make much difference with the Taliban in control. It is not a movement that tolerates much internal dissent. I mean, Taliban leaders are opposed to women becoming educated.But I sympathize with you in your search for alternatives short of bombs and war.
Bethesda, Md.:
I keep hearing of helping the Northern Alliance--I'm from Pakistan and would prefer them over the Taliban, BUT, don't you think the US ought tobe very careful about just funding opposition groups--the whole "enemy of my enemy...idea". After all much of the Taliban's strength comes from funding in the Soviet era linked to the US, and most all of Saddam's power comes from American funding, when Iran was the bad guy. Doesn't anyone see a pattern here?
Vernon Loeb: I see a pattern here, and, yes, the U.S. does need to be careful in terms of who we prop up to combat the Taliban and bin Laden. If the U.S. military were to invade Afghanistan and topple the Taliban, then what? To me,it calls to mind South Vietnam, where the U.S. never could find a regime that had legitimacy.
Sterling, Va.:
I am happy to see that Pres. Bush clearly differentiated between the majority of peace-loving Muslims and Arabs around the world and the few violent terrorists that claim they are "fundamentalists" but are rogues.
Do you think that Americans in general will change their percepiton, and not only think Arabs and Muslims are violent and hate America? We need to educate people more about differentiating religio-political terrorists from religion.
Vernon Loeb: Despite the press reports of sporadic hate crimes around the county directed at Muslims (and in one case, an Indian, presumd to be Muslim, I suppose), I've been impressed with the ability of ordinary Americans to make that distinction. And I agree that Bush has done well to emphasize the point that this is not a war against Muslims, or Arabs, but a war against terrorists.
Fairfax, Va.:
Do you think the Government is prepared to give people in the DC area warning if something is expected to happen regarding a terriorist event in the area?
Vernon Loeb: No, I do not. Not to be an alarmist or anything, but a suicide bomber could attack the Metro system quite easily, just as suicide bombers have quite easily attacked discos and Pizza parlors in Israel. Tom Ridge has his work cut out for him as the new czar of domestic preparedness.
Reston, Va.:
About the Pentagon suicide pilot. He was a skilled pilot, as even commerical pilots don't have to put the jet onto a specific mark on the ground such as the side of a 5 story building. A commercial pilot places the jet generally (and softly) at the beginning of the runway. The jet hit at the extreme beginning of the target -- imagine if it had hit the inside ring on the river side. It would still be burning today.
The speed of the jet when its just about to land is very slow also, something like 150 mph or less, which means it's possible to see stuff on the ground pretty clearly. And the White House is that building dead north of the big white obelisk jutting out of that long green grassy area.
Vernon Loeb: Thanks for that comment. One of my colleagues who is covering that particular crash told me that the plane was traveling at 436 mph when it hit the Pentagon, if you can imagine that.
Ft. Lauderdale, Fla.:
Do you believe that there will be fundamental changes in intelligence coordination with the inception of the Home Defense Agency? Does Governor Ridge have knowledge in both intelligence and law enforcement procedures? In addition, can he cull outmoded methods and sources without demoralizing the agencies currently performing anti-terrorism functions?
Vernon Loeb: I think it remains to be seen what Ridge's interface ith the intel world will be. My impression is that his primary job will be coordinating warning and response mechanisms, not working against terrorist organizations. The FBI will continue to do that, working with the CIA and NSA overseas. I certainly don't think Ridge will have any capability to effect the use of sources by the FBI or the CIA_I think that's just way beyond his mandate in this new position. But again, a lot of this still has to be defined.
Niagara Falls, N.Y.:
What odds would you give that the U.S. can narrow down bin Laden's location to an area small enough for U.S. forces to search in a week?
Vernon Loeb: Patience will be required to find bin Laden. He may fall out of sight for a week or weeks, then resurface somewhere. I think it will be hard, but not impossible, to find him.
Gullsgate, Minn:
Vernon Loeb: What are we embracing when we embrace patriotism?
I join with all Americans in a voice of solidarity against the terrorist acts actuated on this nation. But I do not support War or the 'blind patriotism' that nurtures it.
My flag does not hang from my door because the symbol (and it is but a symbol reflecting many acts, good and bad) embraces a duo- support; the cry of mourning and the cry for war.
The paradox is, I am restrained from showing my support of solidarity with grief and anger, but not the flag waving, as it defines a solidarity with all-out War.
There is a public fever rising as blind allegiance, my-country-right-or-wrong sends another dust cloud over this country; a fever nourished by media replay, over and over. Obviously Congress washed its hands this time and gave the powers to make war to a now feuding Pentagon and State Department.
What are we embracing when we embrace patriotism and all that it may imply?
Vernon Loeb: I think you provide a thoughtful answer to your own question, which I'll put in play for all our participants. Thanks for writing.
Washington, D.C.:
Mr. Loeb, a Jane's defense group Web site has an interesting article based on Israeli military intelligence (I would think much more reliable than ours) saying that likely mastermind is Hizbullah foreign operations man Imad Mughniyeh. While Israeli intelligence might have their own agenda blaming Hizbullah, it is clear that bugaboo of Bin Laden constructed by our esteemed leaders is not right. Osama is no mastermind of such things -- he has never been west of Lebanon, and Sept. 11 operation showed very good understanding of western ways of life.
Osama might be an inspirational figure, financier, spokesperson, but he is no mastermind. Isn't the current administration rethoric too simplistic and narrow-minded?
Could you please comment.
Vernon Loeb: I, too, have talked to some folks pushing the possibility that Mughniyeh may have been involved. He is known to have met with bin Laden on several occassions. But no one in the U.S. government, at least for the moment, thinks Mugniyeh is involved. As you say, maybe the Mossad knows something th CIA doesn't, though in this case I wager they're in prety close communication.
Harlingen, Texas:
Fixing the bureaucratic muddle -- 38 separate Federal agencies and organizations with some responsibility for various aspects of counterterrorism -- is going to be an enormous task.
Any initial indications of how possible consolidations, streamlining, etc. might go?
Vernon Loeb: I would point you to the Hart-Rudman report, which makes a pretty specific proposal for combining all those functions into one National Homeland Defense Agency.
Vernon Loeb: Well, the hour has flown by, and I'm told there are still a lot of question unanswered. I apologize for not being able to answer them. I really appreciate everyone's participation. As usually happens, I think I gain more from your questions than you probably gain from my answers. We're going to do this again next week, on Wednesday, I think. So I look forward to answering more question then. Have a great weekend. Thanks again.
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